@PakSword , to reply to your post from the Israelis murdering thread about Pakistani pilots coming to Egypt in 1973 after the October War cease fire at the behest of not derailing
@Falcon29 's request to keep the off-topic stuff out, so we can easily talk about it here.
I wanted to tell you I wasn't requesting proof whatsoever. I think that was your impression. There is MONUMENTAL information regarding that war from Arabic sources and I've read practically every single source (even Israeli and not just western) and there is too much Arabic/Egyptian sources to keep up with but I've been through A LOT of it in my 55 years (well, I didn't start since I popped out into this world LOL) but not once did I hear of Pakistani jets arriving after the cease fire, but if you can get a picture, it would be GREAT to add to my collection. That's what I was asking
But out of all those sources I've tirelessly went through, the only one I find to be the most credible is the book written buy Sa'ad Edin El Shazly. In case you weren't aware of who he is, he was the Egyptian Chief of Staff during the war and organized it from the impeccable crossing after the artillery barrage & after the 200 MiG-21,Su-7 airstrike all the way until the Israeli first breach to the west bank. He even had a plan to counter them easily with Sagger units but Sadat wouldn't accept his plan because it called for the withdrawal of several ATGM Sagger units from the east that has already crossed and they would easily ambush the Israelis before they build up their forces. But Sadat was afraid it would ruin the incredible morale the soldiers felt up to that point. The WORST mistake Sadat made in that war among a few others brutal ones. That's when Sadat started butting heads with shazly and subsequently fired him.
He wrote his book The Crossing of the Suez Canal with the most accurate information from all the tank counts to armored vehicles to infantry units and especially a list of the allies who came to assist Egypt without our request just from their super ally-ship and in nowhere did he mention any 8 Pakistani forces in Egypt. My guess is your information is probably accurate to a certain extent in that was the plan for 8 to go to Syria and 8 to Egypt but when they learned of the cease fire, they never went. That was why I asked for a photo because I have a pretty good library of that war and that would be quite an addition to it, not to be argumentative. Hope that clarifies thing.
BTW, as well as the EAF pilots flying MiG-21s and MiG-17s and Su-7s against Phantoms F-4EII, Mirage BVs (excuse me, Neshers lmao) and skyhakws, the EAF performed admirably but according to Shazly, the best jet fighters who caused the most fright to the IAF were the Iraqis in their Hawker Hunters. They flew right over Israelis to protect the canal without a care. So just a pic to add to my collection and I will review the section in Shazlys book in case I missed a mention of Pakistani offer to help and let you know. I doubt it, though.
Sadly, the most unfortunately mistreated war hero! If it wasn't for Shazly, that crossing and Israeli counter getting smashed to smithereens including the surprise SAM umbrella he designed downing of over 100 Israeli jets would've never happened without him. He was a brilliant military man amongst the top ten ever IMO and the only to stand up to Sadat unlike Muabark and Ismail and Abu Ghazala etc. He paid a heavy price. How often do you get a good-looking stud who's militarily brilliant?
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The men loved him and cherished him which might have led to a little envy from Sadat's side, unfortunately since his ego was beyond description and wanted all the credit which Shazly already had without even wanting it. After being mobbed by soldiers wanting to hug him for one of the most successful plan of attacks and Sadat's obvious loss of admiration, he had a pair of gorilla body guards who actually had their AKs pointed constantly wherever they followed him.
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Shazly to Sadat's right of Sadat who ala Hitler style (whom he was a huge fan for his military strategies not the Jews burning in ovens) with the huge map and the delusional military planning that caused so much destruction to the 4th armored division and the gap Israel exploited and not listening to his best general, Shazly, who you can see it on his face thinking "this guy is out of his mind!" lol
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The Pakistani Plots were in Egypt in 1970..
Brigadier Pilot Jalal Al-Bassili, 26th Fighter Squadron:
" We learned a lot from the Pakistanis, and one of the most important things we learned is that speed can become zero and you can move the plane with the pedals. It was the first time in my life that I learned this kind of flying. The Pakistanis were here at Inshas Airport, so we called Ahmed Zaidan the Pakistani because of his abundant presence with them and their level was very high and skilled."
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Apart from Shazly's book.. these are some of the most interesting books about the subject
Major General Jamal Hammad in his high-level book "
The War Battles on the Egyptian Front"
Muhammad Hassanein Heikal in his book "
October, Weapons and Politics"
Field Marshal Al Jemsi ..the third man in command of the Egyptian army in
His diary said:
" I whisper in the ears of El-Shazly with all cordiality and respect and tell him that the October 1973 war plan was drawn up after the work on it took a long time by the Armed Forces Operations Authority and the participation of the main branches of these forces - air, sea and air defense - and the various departments and leaders, and General Shazlyi, Chief of Staff, approved it along with General Ahmed Ismail, the Commander in Chief, certified it - by each signing the documents with my signature - long before the war. As long as the plan was drawn up to achieve a military strategic goal, which is to reach the straits, it is not acceptable for the chief of staff to say that he was against developing the attack to the straits in the planning stage."
" The Commander-in-Chief, Lieutenant General Ahmed Ismail, was more careful than he should ... and slowed down, which called him to wait for a long time from 10 to 13 October. If we missed the opportunity (here al-Jamsi indicates that Ahmed Ismail complied with Sadat’s desire to develop the attack on October 14 ... that is, Ahmed Ismail refused to venture on October 9 and 10 where he should have ... but he accepted the adventure on October 14. "
Major General Al-Jamsi added that he held two long interviews with Lieutenant General Ahmed Ismail on October 9, in which he discussed the need to develop the attack and continue to exert pressure on the Israeli forces. He found him very careful, as he used to see Ahmed Ismail to wait for the enemy to suffer the greatest possible losses, and he thought that the forces that attack would be exposed to Israeli air attacks. ... But Al-Jamsi explained that the resumption of the Egyptian forces' advance means their cohesion with the Israeli forces, which leads to the neutralization of the Israeli air force, in addition to the fact that the Egyptian air force can be used against the Israeli air force, even if in a limited way, in addition to moving Agile air defense units .
Al-Gamasy added that the Egyptian forces' retaining the initiative and exploiting the success achieved gives the Egyptian forces the opportunity to successfully achieve the strategic goal, while the long wait without any action allows the Israeli forces to adjust their situation and extract the initiative from the Egyptian forces.
From the above it is clear that the principle of developing the attack is not a mistake in general ... Rather, its success was dependent on
the appropriate timing, which was not heard from Lieutenant General Chazli, and this is the opinion of Field Marshal Al-Jamsi one of the greatest Egyptian military genius..
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October 12 was the beginning of the arrival of the hurricane of US supplies in Operation Nickel Grass, or the American airlift, which compensated for almost all of Israel's losses in tanks in its early days, other than the arrival of new batches of TOW anti-tank missiles, and thus the Israeli forces were in a much better position (they collected about 3 Armored divisions, the equivalent of about 900 tanks ... and the number will escalate later to about 1200 tanks) to the point that the Israeli political and military leadership were discussing, on the days of 12 and 13 October, the way to deal a strong blow to the Egyptian forces with which they could balance matters on the ground before the ceasefire (note They almost gave up the idea of destroying the bridgeheads due to the repeated failure of the Israeli attacks on them ..... and the mere abandonment by Israel of the idea of destroying the bridgeheads is nothing but an implicit recognition of the success of the Egyptian crossing)
Also, Henry Kissinger, who was controlling everything in the USA at the time as a result of Nixon's drowning in the Watergate scandal, wanted to deliver a message to the world through the American airlift to the Israelis that the American support for Israel is unlimited and that the USA will not allow Israel to lose,.
As General David Ben Eliezer, the Israeli Chief of Staff, said:
"If the American weapons did not reach us on October 12, then the only meaning of this was that the great disaster had occurred, because we had completely lost the strategic stockpile of weapons, and this meant that Egypt and Syria could reach further than could any Israeli imagine. "
He continued:
"The USA has agreed to our demands to send advanced types of smart missiles and bombs, guidance networks, and TV jammers, And it has already started shipping them to us ... and has sent American experts with it to take over the task of rapid training for our forces ... and it arrived to us hours before noon on October 11th with 70 New Phantoms and Skyhawks aircraft arriving on the same day."
This volume of supplies was reflected in the battle, as Field Marshal Muhammad Ali Fahmy, commander of the Egyptian Air Defense, said in his memoirs:
"The events came to confirm that the Egyptian forces are facing yhe USA, not Israel, As it may be noticed a sudden surge in the size and density of the hostile air forces, starting from October 14, and a change has also been observed in the anti-radars and missile guidance stations electronic warfare systems "