'Each Soldier Carries About 40 kg In Battle': Why The Army Cannot Downsize

[PARIKRAMA]

'Each Soldier Carries About 40 kg In Battle': Why The Army Cannot Downsize
All India | Written by Sudhi Ranjan Sen | Updated: March 08, 2016 08:07 IST

Soldiers in a section carry 1400 rounds of LMG ammunition packed in 34 magazines on them.


NEW DELHI:

The scope to cut down the manpower in the Army does not exist, a top commander in the Army has told NDTV. Just last week, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had said "there is need to cut down on flab" given the steady increase in salary and pension bill of the military.

The Army, about 1.2 million strong, is the obvious target of the cut down. An internal exercise of the Army, on the contrary, has shown that over the years, the responsibilities of individual soldiers have doubled as has the individual load carried by them in battle situations.

"Across the world soldiers on an average carry one third their body weight, the Indian solider far exceeds this, and it has started to impinge on maneuverability," the senior commander said.


The exercise, shared with NDTV, shows a section - 10 men per section - of the infantry now carries with it two Light Machine Guns (LMG) , one Rocket Launcher, besides personal weapons. Each LMG has about 700 rounds on the weapon and another 500 rounds is distributed and carried separately by soldiers of the section.

In all, soldiers in a section carry 1400 rounds of LMG ammunition packed in 34 magazines on them. Besides, four rockets carried with the launcher, the section carries another six rounds on them.

"Apart from this, each solider carries his personal weapon - either an AK-47 or INSAS and ammunition on himself. All these add up to about 40 kg carried by each solider," the commander said.

More importantly, out of 10 soldiers, four are required to man the LMGs and the rocket launchers, leaving six men to carry out an assault.

"The bayonet strength - soldiers available to charge or storm into features - is about six soldiers per section, the bare minimum required to carry out an assault," the commander said.

At the Platoon level or at the Regiment Level, comprising four combat companies - one Support and Logistic Company and Headquarter Company - this ratio gets even more skewed.

Each regiment carries with it battle field surveillance radars, snipers with at least 200 rounds of ammunition, three Multi-Barrel Grenade Launchers (MBGL), three Automatic Grenade Launchers (AGL) and ammunition besides Anti-Tank Guided Missiles (ATGMs). Each infantry unit also carries an Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) and heavy communication equipment.

"At the regiment level the manpower crunch is starker and pressure even more severe," the commander said. "Over the years, vehicle drivers for instance have been trained as electricians, or to fire ATGM, man radars, double up as nursing assistant for injuries since number of battlefield nursing attendants have been cut down. Some are trained as mechanics to repair vehicles on the spot," the officer said and added "every infantry unit has been skinned, flab doesn't exist."

Similarly, artillery and mechanised units have been crunched and the number of men in non-combat supply and service arms - like Army Supply Corps, Ordnance - have been cut over the years.

"Unless there is a quantum jump in the fire power and real time surveillance equipment with each unit it is difficult to imagine where the cut down can happen," the commander said.
Story First Published:March 08, 2016 01:16 IST

'Each Soldier Carries About 40 kg In Battle': Why The Army Cannot Downsize

@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @Levina @anant_s @third eye @Joe Shearer @Taygibay @Ind4Ever @cerberus @knight11 @Roybot @Water Car Engineer @ni8mare

 

[Perpendicular]

Unless there is a quantum jump in the fire power and real time surveillance equipment with each unit it is difficult to imagine where the cut down can happen," the commander said.

Thst's exactly where the effort should be. Increased capability individually and collectively.

 

[Levina]

"there is need to cut down on flab" given the steady increase in salary and pension bill of the military.

I am sure there are many more "forgotten accounts" out there, which can be used for funding our forces.

If MoD had gone ahead and reduced the head count, then i dont know how they would have managed to raise the new mountain divisions.
I am against downsizing.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Ask any army man about it ..... they will echo the opposite. We are At least 20% short at manpower.

And this lack of manpower has already costed many Jawans and civillians their life.

Just last week , had our " Fcuking idiot " HM listned to the local leadership of CRPF and a nod to additional deployment , we would have had near ~180 dead/alive naxals at our disposal.

Now the situation is only 6 are killed while rest are roaming free.

Is not our HM, our DM and every person who says armed forces to be downsized reponsible for each life lost due to those 174 monsters free?
Shall those who say yes to reduction face execution ???

Its fucking idiotic to talk this.

I am against downsizing.

I strongly second this.

 

[Scavenger]

I am against downsizing.

But I am against any new force raising either - after raising the MSC.

Instead as our economy/budget grows, I'd like the additional money to be spent on modernization instead of any force raising.

Ask any army man about it ..... they will echo the opposite. We are At least 20% short at manpower.

The Army is also very very guilty. They don't want any change in their structure. Even Pakistan Army has removed the sahayak system while our glorious Indian Army persists with 'Batmen'. They have resisted the removal of this system tooth and nail.

You would be naive to think that whatever they say is correct.

 

[Abingdonboy]

'Each Soldier Carries About 40 kg In Battle': Why The Army Cannot Downsize
All India | Written by Sudhi Ranjan Sen | Updated: March 08, 2016 08:07 IST

Soldiers in a section carry 1400 rounds of LMG ammunition packed in 34 magazines on them.


NEW DELHI:

The scope to cut down the manpower in the Army does not exist, a top commander in the Army has told NDTV. Just last week, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had said "there is need to cut down on flab" given the steady increase in salary and pension bill of the military.

The Army, about 1.2 million strong, is the obvious target of the cut down. An internal exercise of the Army, on the contrary, has shown that over the years, the responsibilities of individual soldiers have doubled as has the individual load carried by them in battle situations.

"Across the world soldiers on an average carry one third their body weight, the Indian solider far exceeds this, and it has started to impinge on maneuverability," the senior commander said.


The exercise, shared with NDTV, shows a section - 10 men per section - of the infantry now carries with it two Light Machine Guns (LMG) , one Rocket Launcher, besides personal weapons. Each LMG has about 700 rounds on the weapon and another 500 rounds is distributed and carried separately by soldiers of the section.

In all, soldiers in a section carry 1400 rounds of LMG ammunition packed in 34 magazines on them. Besides, four rockets carried with the launcher, the section carries another six rounds on them.

"Apart from this, each solider carries his personal weapon - either an AK-47 or INSAS and ammunition on himself. All these add up to about 40 kg carried by each solider," the commander said.

More importantly, out of 10 soldiers, four are required to man the LMGs and the rocket launchers, leaving six men to carry out an assault.

"The bayonet strength - soldiers available to charge or storm into features - is about six soldiers per section, the bare minimum required to carry out an assault," the commander said.

At the Platoon level or at the Regiment Level, comprising four combat companies - one Support and Logistic Company and Headquarter Company - this ratio gets even more skewed.

Each regiment carries with it battle field surveillance radars, snipers with at least 200 rounds of ammunition, three Multi-Barrel Grenade Launchers (MBGL), three Automatic Grenade Launchers (AGL) and ammunition besides Anti-Tank Guided Missiles (ATGMs). Each infantry unit also carries an Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) and heavy communication equipment.

"At the regiment level the manpower crunch is starker and pressure even more severe," the commander said. "Over the years, vehicle drivers for instance have been trained as electricians, or to fire ATGM, man radars, double up as nursing assistant for injuries since number of battlefield nursing attendants have been cut down. Some are trained as mechanics to repair vehicles on the spot," the officer said and added "every infantry unit has been skinned, flab doesn't exist."

Similarly, artillery and mechanised units have been crunched and the number of men in non-combat supply and service arms - like Army Supply Corps, Ordnance - have been cut over the years.

"Unless there is a quantum jump in the fire power and real time surveillance equipment with each unit it is difficult to imagine where the cut down can happen," the commander said.
Story First Published:March 08, 2016 01:16 IST

'Each Soldier Carries About 40 kg In Battle': Why The Army Cannot Downsize

@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @Levina @anant_s @third eye @Joe Shearer @Taygibay @Ind4Ever @cerberus @knight11 @Roybot @Water Car Engineer @ni8mare

This is a somewhat clever tactic by the IA that I'm sure will get some traction from those who are less well versed in the nuances of this debate.

The fact is, what is being proposed (trimming the "fat") is NOT about cutting men out of a platoon and thus asking the induvidual units to make do with less numbers- that is a most absurd assertion. No, what is being asked of the IA is to trim redundant SUPPORT staff ie orderlies, cooks, porters etc. If I had it my way, entire brigades would be culled with their requsite support infrastructure also;I keep saying the IA should be cut by 30% across the board but alas.


This is a very typical mindset we are seeing from senior career officers who will fight for their lot, as well they should, but this is a fight I am expecting them to lose in the long term. The current strength is simply unsustainable- the IA is consuming >50% of the ENTIRE defence budget of India but look at the pathetic state they are in, still straight out of WW1 in some cases. The PLA has learnt their lesson and are themselves cutting their force levels and investing in force multipliers- when is the last time you heard any IA brass utter that term? The IAF and IN talk about them all the time but never the IA.

It is no longer numbers alone that will win you a war, I don't see why the IA is so blind to this reality.

 

[jhungary]

'Each Soldier Carries About 40 kg In Battle': Why The Army Cannot Downsize
All India | Written by Sudhi Ranjan Sen | Updated: March 08, 2016 08:07 IST

Soldiers in a section carry 1400 rounds of LMG ammunition packed in 34 magazines on them.


NEW DELHI:

The scope to cut down the manpower in the Army does not exist, a top commander in the Army has told NDTV. Just last week, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had said "there is need to cut down on flab" given the steady increase in salary and pension bill of the military.

The Army, about 1.2 million strong, is the obvious target of the cut down. An internal exercise of the Army, on the contrary, has shown that over the years, the responsibilities of individual soldiers have doubled as has the individual load carried by them in battle situations.

"Across the world soldiers on an average carry one third their body weight, the Indian solider far exceeds this, and it has started to impinge on maneuverability," the senior commander said.


The exercise, shared with NDTV, shows a section - 10 men per section - of the infantry now carries with it two Light Machine Guns (LMG) , one Rocket Launcher, besides personal weapons. Each LMG has about 700 rounds on the weapon and another 500 rounds is distributed and carried separately by soldiers of the section.

In all, soldiers in a section carry 1400 rounds of LMG ammunition packed in 34 magazines on them. Besides, four rockets carried with the launcher, the section carries another six rounds on them.

"Apart from this, each solider carries his personal weapon - either an AK-47 or INSAS and ammunition on himself. All these add up to about 40 kg carried by each solider," the commander said.

More importantly, out of 10 soldiers, four are required to man the LMGs and the rocket launchers, leaving six men to carry out an assault.

"The bayonet strength - soldiers available to charge or storm into features - is about six soldiers per section, the bare minimum required to carry out an assault," the commander said.

At the Platoon level or at the Regiment Level, comprising four combat companies - one Support and Logistic Company and Headquarter Company - this ratio gets even more skewed.

Each regiment carries with it battle field surveillance radars, snipers with at least 200 rounds of ammunition, three Multi-Barrel Grenade Launchers (MBGL), three Automatic Grenade Launchers (AGL) and ammunition besides Anti-Tank Guided Missiles (ATGMs). Each infantry unit also carries an Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) and heavy communication equipment.

"At the regiment level the manpower crunch is starker and pressure even more severe," the commander said. "Over the years, vehicle drivers for instance have been trained as electricians, or to fire ATGM, man radars, double up as nursing assistant for injuries since number of battlefield nursing attendants have been cut down. Some are trained as mechanics to repair vehicles on the spot," the officer said and added "every infantry unit has been skinned, flab doesn't exist."

Similarly, artillery and mechanised units have been crunched and the number of men in non-combat supply and service arms - like Army Supply Corps, Ordnance - have been cut over the years.

"Unless there is a quantum jump in the fire power and real time surveillance equipment with each unit it is difficult to imagine where the cut down can happen," the commander said.
Story First Published:March 08, 2016 01:16 IST

'Each Soldier Carries About 40 kg In Battle': Why The Army Cannot Downsize

@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @Levina @anant_s @third eye @Joe Shearer @Taygibay @Ind4Ever @cerberus @knight11 @Roybot @Water Car Engineer @ni8mare

As an infantry man myself, the first thing come to my mind after reading this is.............THIS IS CRAZY.

1400 round of LMG ammo on top of the 200 or so individual carries is the platoon level ammo reserve. We don't carry these much in battle.

The problem I guess lay on how IA perform their logistic support to troop. For one frontline soldier, the support network require to support one single frontline combat soldier are 25 men/women. You cannot slack off the logistic front as nobody can fight a war with just what you got on your back.

A clear defined logistic network would give you an edge to fight your battle you way, and you can dictate the tempo as you are not bounded by the inherit limit of your individual power. You cannot do that if all you do in frontline is worrying about the next supply truck or calculate would you have enough ammunition to carry on.

Also, IA need to migrate into mechanizing their Army, even if that mean downsizing it, which would still give you firepower and mobility you need when you need the most.

 

[Pulsar]

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had said "there is need to cut down on flab"

Source: 'Each Soldier Carries About 40 kg In Battle': Why The Army Cannot Downsize

He needs to cut down on his own flab first. His paunch has started to show.

But seriously, as @Abingdonboy mentioned above, it's the 'sahayak brigade' in the army which needs to be cut down. It's ok having them in operational areas, but there's no case to have them in peace time locations. In addition, barbers, dhobis and masalchis can be done away with in peace time locations too. Can be outsourced.

Next is the EME (Electrical and Mechanical Engineer Corps). This is an anachronism in peace locations. All repair facilities at least for 'B' vehicles need to be outsourced, thus cutting down on considerable manpower used at present for 1st and 2nd line repair of vehicles.

Apart from this, there's just no way manpower can be cut down.

 

[Echo_419]

As an infantry man myself, the first thing come to my mind after reading this is.............THIS IS CRAZY.

1400 round of LMG ammo on top of the 200 or so individual carries is the platoon level ammo reserve. We don't carry these much in battle.

The problem I guess lay on how IA perform their logistic support to troop. For one frontline soldier, the support network require to support one single frontline combat soldier are 25 men/women. You cannot slack off the logistic front as nobody can fight a war with just what you got on your back.

A clear defined logistic network would give you an edge to fight your battle you way, and you can dictate the tempo as you are not bounded by the inherit limit of your individual power. You cannot do that if all you do in frontline is worrying about the next supply truck or calculate would you have enough ammunition to carry on.

Also, IA need to migrate into mechanizing their Army, even if that mean downsizing it, which would still give you firepower and mobility you need when you need the most.

How much does Indian Army's American & Australian counterparts carry?

 

[jhungary]

How much does Indian Army's American & Australian counterparts carry?

Don't know much about Australian Army (I don't understand why people would assume I know anything about Australian Army lol)

In the US. The TO&E is like this for a standard platoon

A Platoon will have 3 Rifle Squad and 1 Weapon Squad

Each squad have 9 men. Lead by a Staff Sergeant. Each Squad have 2 four men fire-team, lead by a buck sergeant.

Each Fire team consist of 1 Riflemen, 1 SAW gunner, 1 Grenadier and 1 Team Leader.

Rifleman carries 6-10 mags (depends on mission) which give 180-300 rounds individual weapon ammo.
Rifleman also carrier a sidearm (M9) with 2 spare mag (30 rounds)
Grenadier carries what Rifleman carries + 10 rounds assorted 40mm grenade (mix of flare, HE, Smoke)
SAW gunner carrier 300 rounds (3 boxes) of M249 belt

Each squad have 2 Humvee, in which you will find 2 boxes of loose ball each.

Weapon squad usually carries 2 M240 and 2 Designated Marksmen team (both 2 men per team) lead by a Staff Sergeant

M240 gunner/A-gunner carries a combine of 500 rounds munition. While the 2 men sniper team carries the same loading as riflemen with one of the man carry an extra sniper rifle (M21, M24 or M110) with 4 to 6 clips of extra munition.

A platoon would also have a HQ element with 6 men, all load as a riflemen platoon leader (2LT), a platoon sergeant (SFC), R/O, Platoon Medic, Platoon FO, PFO R/O .

In all. A platoon will carries somewhere around 9000 rounds (Max) of individual small arms munition. 900 rounds of SAW 5.56 belt and 1000 rounds of 7.62 belt. We usually store free ball munition in our Humvee in case we need reload and refit. But usually less than 1000 round of ammo of all sort in our Humvee

 

[doppelganger]

How much does Indian Army's American & Australian counterparts carry?

Not a whole lot less per what I learned on the WAB. Actually one of the infantry veterans there did a fairly detailed historical perspective of what infantry down the ages have carried across the world from Roman times, and 35 odd kilos is pretty standard. Across millennia.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

No one is asking for downsizing of individual combat platoons.
Streamline logistics.
Cut out helpers/sahayaks whatever.
Introduce greater mechanization and automation.
Stop raising new regiments each year.
Equip the existing ones with mobile state of the art equipment.
Improve infrastructure so that instead of enormous number of units in static defense mode,strike units can be rotated quickly from one area to another.

Our jawans make us proud,but our planning staff has been an embarassment.
Need more organic artillery,individual gear for soldiers,strategic infrastructure,

 

[jhungary]

No one is asking for downsizing of individual combat platoons.
Streamline logistics.
Cut out helpers/sahayaks whatever.
Introduce greater mechanization and automation.
Stop raising new regiments each year.
Equip the existing ones with mobile state of the art equipment.
Improve infrastructure so that instead of enormous number of units in static defense mode,strike units can be rotated quickly from one area to another.

Our jawans make us proud,but our planning staff has been an embarassment.
Need more organic artillery,individual gear for soldiers,strategic infrastructure,

In war, it never number of soldier that matters, nor was it because of the equipment or firepower, it always how many soldier you can support in a frontline that's matters. I can give you the best firepower in the world, the biggest number of soldiers, however, if you cannot support your soldier in frontline, give them ammo when they run out, give them food and keep it coming. You won't last 3 days.

In the US Army, the basic of warfighting principal is a triangle between 3 things.

Logistic -> Command -> Technology. Each of the three have to be able to support the other, if you have too many people to command, if your logistic is not up to standard, or if your technology level is not up to the task, you fail.

You can always raise new troop, as long as you have the mean to support these troop. It is more important to look at how you can sustain a war, rather than how many people you can put in. Sustainability is the key for any battle. And this will not change in the future.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

I am just wondering what happened to F-INSAS after all these years

 

[Taygibay]

Parik's article is right but incomplete so that regarding all 3 answers, I wholly
disagree and so do all technical data and studies since the 19th century, BTW!

Downsizing here is meant as the diminution of the battle load of soldiers. This is,
as said, an old trend or at least a worry amongst command planners but the exact
opposite has happened on the battlefield especially in the last 30-40 years. But
before I proceed, let me reveal a useful precision : my bodyweight has never left
the 87-92 kilos range* since the end of adolescence and I don't mean fat. I'm 1,78m.
I have seen many small and rugged men with high carrying ratios but still, to be
realistic and despite the numerous pics on the internet showing Asia's attempts at it,
you pack more on a semi trailer truck than on a moped or scooter. 40 kgs is still too much!

In 1885, a German study showed that in low to moderate temperatures, a trained soldier
could carry 22kgs for 24 kms. The same carry done under hot temperatures resulted in
such a strain on the organism that up to 24 hours of rest were required to recuperate.
At 31 kilos, however the low to moderate case yielded similar results to the 22kgs hot one
and those 31 kgs at hot temps level produced immediate and lasting effects. What's more,
physical training did nothing to help and 22kgs was recommended although never applied
By 1985**, a recent trend had more weight than 31 kgs appear on the average troop.
American soldiers on missions of 2 to 3 days carried over 45 kilos in some cases!!!
It is still the case today, was in A-Stan for instance. Tougher units may see up to 2/3-3/4
of bodyweight loads on some men when big or numerous weapons are involved. Count
in a daily re-supply of food and ammunition to support this paradigm.

Of course, this load varies in levels according to mission segments :
Fighting load of 25-30 kgs is used for contact or intense parts; still over 30% BodyWeight;
Approach load of 42-46 kgs adds the necessary eat, stay warm, sleep kit; 50-55 % BW;
Emergency load get right below 60 kgs and thus we found or 72 or 73 % of BW, three fourths!!!
One needs not be very good at maths to understand how this conflicts with the century old
German study .
All of the above is found here : The Infantryman's Combat Load


The reasons for this over-carry situation are numerous. Apart from commanders ignoring studies
as found prior, there is the technology aspect. To reach the loads indicated above, we have added
radios for everyone, for example. In WWI, communication equipments were hard wired and fixed.
In WWII, platoons and soon after squads gained radios for the whole unit . Since, programs such
as FELIN in the French Armed Forces have made comms part of the individual equipment.
Weapons have evolved in tech too and similarly rely on electronics and both them and the radios
run on batteries. Vehicles have adapted too, becoming life bases with reserves and recharge stations
but the combats loads mentioned in my first part were precisely those concerned with what happens
when the vehicles reach their maximum extent & fall behind in capacities to provide in some way.
Another source of weight increase was brought by the protection level rising immensely. When I be-
gan serving at the time of that document above, there were no flak jackets and the likes. Helmet was it!
Nowadays, very few troops in a modern military go about without body protection gear. Favouring fire
power also has the same result. Three belts of 7,62 outweigh three belts of 5,56 no matter where.

Is there any chance that the load will go back down? Resounding NO, right there! In fact, the studies
for smaller transports ( VHM , HB Bv-206 or quads ), roboticized ground and air mules, exo-squeletons
and the likes point to the trend of high loads being entirely accepted as solutions to accompany it are
more actively sought than ways to backtrack from it.

Are there different options? It all depends on what past military culture and present equipment of your
troops allow.
If your soldiers carry loads near those mentioned but without the advantages explicitly listed ( high tech
gear and full protection / frequent replenishment ), you really need to scale back! Something is wrong.
Doing so may not be so hard either if your fighters have a great relation to their environment. In A-Stan,
in Pakistan, in some parts of India and historically in Indochine/Vietnam, light and very lightly equipped
combattants have shown victory ensuring efficiency ... mostly because they were on their home turf.
The point that my analysis wanted to uncover is that the high load option is an expeditionary practice!

A soldier in a hard built border post does not need an individual radio but a SFs operative thousands
of klicks from base needs a satellite transmission suitcase. Protective gear is useful but so is mobility
especially if added to terrain familiarity as you patrol your youth's playground mountain range. And if
you're not likely to find support in a land with minimal to none electricity infrastructure, empty batteries
will turn those NVG into a rock of sort, much less useful than knowing enemy routes and hiding spots.

If you do choose to accept the high load tactic, here is the conundrum : for every bit of tech, for every
10 kilos over that old 22 Deutsch original, for every bit of firepower, you'll have to add a helo or some
other mass moving asset. Considering how long procurements take in the specific case of India, one
is left to wonder if the soldiers won't be dead under that load by then ... dead of old age that is!!!

But past this quip, there is an Indian way to be found. Lightening the load in Bharat is not an ISO search
IMHoO. That SFs dedicated to long missions and combatting terrorism should be equipped as their
Occidental counterparts makes sense if the means are also copied from the West. Those serving in an
Infantry regiment faced with fighting the Chinese in a plain as in Waterloo or Antietam should not.
The Indian Navy should pursue high tech as that brings a load off personnels, if mostly in numbers. So
should the IAF. The rest of the troops could find it easier however to choose different paths.
Here, a Sikh or Gorkha unit may grab a few technological bricks while still relying on traditional skills.
There, the soldiers' job may benefit a lot more from a road and electrical supply being constructed.
In some place, the two might be exclusive so that traditional troops could be replaced by surveillance
( or whole ISR suites ) drones and aircrafts with SFs trained and equipped QRF units also gaining in
men to mission ratio as the Navy with yet again the cost in cash likely rising in reaction.
A comprehensive transformation should only copy foreign solutions when it brings a plus value.

Still, to close the loop, I'll re-adress our 3 friends :
When was the last time you lugged 44 kilos around for a day or two and how well did that go for you?

Just sayin' no offense and great day all, Tay.


* Save a few months at a couple kilos more for bodybuilding contest; doesn't count!
** About when I began serving so I witnessed the change personally.