Durand line issu, ANP & Pakhtunkkhwa Milli Awami Party dont accept Pak-Afghan border

[tore]

Durand Line an unsettled dispute - Afghanistan TimesAfghanistan Times

Durand Line an unsettled dispute
admin September 11, 2015 In Editorial

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All hell breaks loose when Afghans hear that the Durand Line is an international border. It has just been a line and not a border as its name suggests. Foreigners believe it or not, it does not matter for Afghans. Then who the hell is the United States to intrude into the matter and tell us that the Durand Line is an international border. Before hurling any statement regarding this dividing line, which divides a nation not just an ethnic group, the United States or any other nation must read the history of the line and legality of international accords and treaties particularly when made between a weaker state and an imperial power.

People who live in glass houses must not throw stones. The United States must not forget that its very own independence is questionable because the US belongs to the Red Indians and not the whites. Will the white Americans digest this stark fact that America was not discovered it was invaded and enslaved? It was occupied by the British Empire. The American civil war remains controversial. Moreover, no treaty qualifies the legality of a treaty when it is forced on a weaker state. The Durand Line agreement was signed between Afghanistan and British-India. When British left the region, India emerged as the successor state and not Pakistan. And even if one suppose that Pakistan is the successor state, then the United States or any other country that sides with Pakistan must not forget that when a colonial power leaves a country (its colony) it receives only the material things in legacy and not the treaties. Therefore, the Durand Line agreement in no way is transferable. Besides that the agreement was valid for a hundred years. This line was imposed in 1893 and was due to expire in 1993, a time when Afghanistan was hit by a deadliest civil war. In absence of a government in Afghanistan, Kabul couldn’t ask Islamabad regarding the fate of the agreement. If someone says the Taliban were a government, this is highly misleading as they were never recognized by any state in the UN except by Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and the UAE. If tomorrow Afghanistan and two other states recognize Pakistan-administered Kashmir as an independent state and a government, will Pakistan accept it too? The legal status of this highly controversial Durand Line has always remained under questions. The first one is that the document of the agreement was in English and Amir Abdul Rahman Khan didn’t know the English language and he didn’t sign the Dari and Pashto version of the document. Therefore, this very thing causes a blow to the legal status of the agreement. A British writer Fraser Tytler writes that the Durand Line has many defects and few advantages. Therefore, it was very much illogical from ethnography, geography and strategic point of view. The total length of the de-facto border at the time of demarcation was only 800 miles then it reached to 1400 miles (current day length). Besides that neither the US nor Pakistan no Afghanistan and nor any other country could decide regarding the fate of this line rather it is only the people living on both sides of the line to decide about its future. On this side of the Durand Line there is no one that accepts it. On the other side we see the same stance as as Awami National Party and Pakhtunkkhwa Milli Awami Party being the two popular Pashtun nationalist parties have refused to accept it as an international border. Even Pakistan knows about its contentious status. For instance the late interior minister of Pakistan Gen. Naseerullah Babar said that once he was invited by the then Prime Minister Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto. Babar said that Bhutto told him that the Durand Line Agreement is expiring in 1993; therefore, Afghanistan must be destabilized because Afghanistan will reclaim its territories stretching from the Durand Line to the Indus River. Last week, former President Hamid Karzai castigated the international belligerent forces that have waged war on terror and also said that Durand Line is not recognizable as a permanent border between the two countries. He stressed the line had to be redefined. However, addressing a press conference in Washington, State Department, spokesman John Kirby said they don’t have a new policy with respect to the borders of Afghanistan and they recognize the Durand Line as an international border between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Better it is the United States stop stirring controversies particularly when it cannot soothe Afghanistan’s ailing and pushing Afghans to sacrifice for American interests. And if an imperial power like the then GB can divide Afghanistan, make Kabul sign the agreement, carve out Pakistan from Indian Sub Continent and divide India, why Afghanistan will not retake its lost territory, but given that once Afghanistan gains stability.

 

[A-Team]

Durand Line an unsettled dispute - Afghanistan TimesAfghanistan Times

Durand Line an unsettled dispute
admin September 11, 2015 In Editorial

• Array
  

All hell breaks loose when Afghans hear that the Durand Line is an international border. It has just been a line and not a border as its name suggests. Foreigners believe it or not, it does not matter for Afghans. Then who the hell is the United States to intrude into the matter and tell us that the Durand Line is an international border. Before hurling any statement regarding this dividing line, which divides a nation not just an ethnic group, the United States or any other nation must read the history of the line and legality of international accords and treaties particularly when made between a weaker state and an imperial power.

People who live in glass houses must not throw stones. The United States must not forget that its very own independence is questionable because the US belongs to the Red Indians and not the whites. Will the white Americans digest this stark fact that America was not discovered it was invaded and enslaved? It was occupied by the British Empire. The American civil war remains controversial. Moreover, no treaty qualifies the legality of a treaty when it is forced on a weaker state. The Durand Line agreement was signed between Afghanistan and British-India. When British left the region, India emerged as the successor state and not Pakistan. And even if one suppose that Pakistan is the successor state, then the United States or any other country that sides with Pakistan must not forget that when a colonial power leaves a country (its colony) it receives only the material things in legacy and not the treaties. Therefore, the Durand Line agreement in no way is transferable. Besides that the agreement was valid for a hundred years. This line was imposed in 1893 and was due to expire in 1993, a time when Afghanistan was hit by a deadliest civil war. In absence of a government in Afghanistan, Kabul couldn’t ask Islamabad regarding the fate of the agreement. If someone says the Taliban were a government, this is highly misleading as they were never recognized by any state in the UN except by Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and the UAE. If tomorrow Afghanistan and two other states recognize Pakistan-administered Kashmir as an independent state and a government, will Pakistan accept it too? The legal status of this highly controversial Durand Line has always remained under questions. The first one is that the document of the agreement was in English and Amir Abdul Rahman Khan didn’t know the English language and he didn’t sign the Dari and Pashto version of the document. Therefore, this very thing causes a blow to the legal status of the agreement. A British writer Fraser Tytler writes that the Durand Line has many defects and few advantages. Therefore, it was very much illogical from ethnography, geography and strategic point of view. The total length of the de-facto border at the time of demarcation was only 800 miles then it reached to 1400 miles (current day length). Besides that neither the US nor Pakistan no Afghanistan and nor any other country could decide regarding the fate of this line rather it is only the people living on both sides of the line to decide about its future. On this side of the Durand Line there is no one that accepts it. On the other side we see the same stance as as Awami National Party and Pakhtunkkhwa Milli Awami Party being the two popular Pashtun nationalist parties have refused to accept it as an international border. Even Pakistan knows about its contentious status. For instance the late interior minister of Pakistan Gen. Naseerullah Babar said that once he was invited by the then Prime Minister Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto. Babar said that Bhutto told him that the Durand Line Agreement is expiring in 1993; therefore, Afghanistan must be destabilized because Afghanistan will reclaim its territories stretching from the Durand Line to the Indus River. Last week, former President Hamid Karzai castigated the international belligerent forces that have waged war on terror and also said that Durand Line is not recognizable as a permanent border between the two countries. He stressed the line had to be redefined. However, addressing a press conference in Washington, State Department, spokesman John Kirby said they don’t have a new policy with respect to the borders of Afghanistan and they recognize the Durand Line as an international border between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Better it is the United States stop stirring controversies particularly when it cannot soothe Afghanistan’s ailing and pushing Afghans to sacrifice for American interests. And if an imperial power like the then GB can divide Afghanistan, make Kabul sign the agreement, carve out Pakistan from Indian Sub Continent and divide India, why Afghanistan will not retake its lost territory, but given that once Afghanistan gains stability.

Durand Line is an international border, we are not naive to think otherwise. We need to be objective and realist about the ground realities and let go of historical biases.

Durand Line is an international border, we are not naive to think otherwise. We need to be objective and realist about the ground realities and let go of historical biases.

Question is : What is Pakistan thinking about Kashmir, will Pakistan keep the overall peace hostage to the Kashmir issue.?

Durand Line is an international border, we are not naive to think otherwise. We need to be objective and realist about the ground realities and let go of historical biases.



Question is : What is Pakistan thinking about Kashmir, will Pakistan keep the overall peace hostage to the Kashmir issue.?

It takes courage to take difficult decision but if the region needs to prosper we all need to take difficult decisions.

 

[Pomegranate]

Durand line is the international Border ... what can afghans do ??? ooh yeah than can use those little hellis they bought from india ....pakistan is a power that afghans cant match up with .

 

[Samandri]

Durand Line an unsettled dispute - Afghanistan TimesAfghanistan Times

Therefore, the Durand Line agreement in no way is transferable. Besides that the agreement was valid for a hundred years. This line was imposed in 1893 and was due to expire in 1993,

No such clause or point exist in Durand line treaty 1893 that it would expire after 100 years, its a myth. Here is it,
Durand line Treaty

Its a lame excuse that Amir Abdul Rehman didnt understand English. He had translators and he was fully aware of the details. He was certainly not happy, raised some objections over distribution of territories but signed it any way. You are forgetting that subsequent Afghan rulers re-affirmed it in 1905, 1919, 1921, 1927 and 1930.

Members here should keep in mind that Afghanistan's border with Russia and Persia were also demarcated by British.

@pakistani342

 

[Kompromat]

We don't accept the Durand Line either, all provinces of Afghanistan are our provinces.

 

[MadDog]

Pakistanis should know that Pakistan possesses more than twice the number of Pushtuns than there are in Afghanistan, a minority can never claim a majority.
Secondly, if Afghan establishment uses the rhetoric of laying claim to Pushtun area, then by that logic Uzbekistan should lay claim to Uzbek area and Tajkistan should lay claim to Tajik areas of Afghanistan, Afghan establishment should let go of this childish mindset, if they want durable peace in this region !!!

 

[xyxmt]

Citizenship should be taken away from any Pakistani not accepting Pakistani borders

 

[pzfz]

Was that written by a mentally disabled person? So many inanities in there, don't even know where to start.

Durand Line is an international border, we are not naive to think otherwise. We need to be objective and realist about the ground realities and let go of historical biases.



Question is : What is Pakistan thinking about Kashmir, will Pakistan keep the overall peace hostage to the Kashmir issue.?

Sorry brother, false equivelances won't do here. Kashmir is an internationally recognized dispute notably by Pakistan, India, and most importantly the Kashmiris. Even if one was to forget the vast political, legal, moral, and historical reasons for Kashmir being an unresolved dispute, the Kashmiris would continue their struggle. The difference between the international border between Af-Pak and LoC is that Afghanistan has no partner in KPK (aka Pakistani Pashtuns). They've already voted in a referendum to join Pakistan, and would vote once again for Pakistan. Hell even the millions of Afghan refugees would like to be Pakistanis. That is why Kabul never talks about "solving" the "dispute" that is only alive in between their ears; they only talk about keeping the dispute alive or "taking back" something that's not theirs (it belongs to the people of KPK).

 

[django]

@Samandri
Why do Afghans claim Attock ,Abbotabad, Mianwali and Gwadar, one can understand their claims on tribal areas and other majority paktun areas but I never understood their claims on these other majority non-paktun areas.

 

[Rafi]

Even the ANP and other Pashtun parties, except the Durrand line as the border, because the Pashtuns are very much involved in every facet of Pakistani life.

 

[Hiptullha]

Question is : What is Pakistan thinking about Kashmir, will Pakistan keep the overall peace hostage to the Kashmir issue.?

Pakistani leaders on a number of occasions have proposed concessions when it came to Kashmir. One noteworthy example would be Musharraf's proposal to completely give up Pakistan's claim on Kashmir. Can the same be said about any Afghan leader? Have they ever tried to ease tensions by giving up their demands on the Durand Land?

 

[pakistani342]

No such clause or point exist in Durand line treaty 1893 that it would expire after 100 years, its a myth. Here is it,
Durand line Treaty

Its a lame excuse that Amir Abdul Rehman didnt understand English. He had translators and he was fully aware of the details. He was certainly not happy, raised some objections over distribution of territories but signed it any way. You are forgetting that subsequent Afghan rulers re-affirmed it in 1905, 1919, 1921, 1927 and 1930.

Members here should keep in mind that Afghanistan's border with Russia and Persia were also demarcated by British.

@pakistani342

Excellent summary on the Durand line. (I'm short on time -- or I would post an interesting Afghan perspective that I ran into -- that needs investigation -- hope to post it later)

I think one point that should be considered is asides from that fact whether the Durand Line is legal or not or an International border or now: What do Pakhtuns on both sides of the border think about it.

I've seen the same point used with Kashmir (and I think which is the most powerful point I've seen in favor of Pakistan) -- let us say India is so strong today that Pakistan cannot take Kashmir by force, but in say 100 years the human and civil rights in India will progress to a level that if the Kashmiris do not want to live inside India, India will not have any option but to let them go. A 100 years is a blink of an eye in the lifetime of nations (so said, correctly, Netanyahu). Now the same rules would apply to Afghanistan and Pakistan.

If say in 100 years of 50 years, what will be the outlook of Pakhtuns on either side of the border -- and the question applies to the larger populations of Afghanistan and Pakistan. Will we continue our petty feuds or will Afghanistan Pakistan feel the easiest way to prosper is some form of a confederation or some variation of the Eurozone Formula.

 

[Samandri]

Afghanistan actually asked British Indian government during world war II, in 1944, that what would be fate of Pashtuns living on Indian side of Durand line. British told them that since Durand line is an international border, it shouldnt concern them. Later Mountbaitten clarified to Afghans that "agreement with tribes on the North-West frontier of India will have to be negotiated with the appropriate successor authority". This gave some hope to Afghans but Red Shirts (predecessors of ANP) decided to support united India, Khan brothers were promised by Nehru and Gandhi that NWFP will be given autonomy in united India. When creation of Pakistan was imminent, Red Shirts opted for ether azad Pashtunistan or autonomous NWFP within Pakistan.....Afghanistan went along with it.

Its a myth that Bacha Khan and Khudai Khidmatgar struggled of reunification with Afghanistan, their politics was not about loy Afghanistan. They were supporters of united India and if partition had not occurred, they would have stayed with India and would not have raised the Pashtunistan issue. Many Afghans of today dont realize this harsh fact, they assume that entire political career of Bacha Khan before 1947 was all about Loy Afghanistan.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Sometimes I think there is no hope for our region. We are destined to suffer for another 100 years. When are we going to mature? Lets look at the basic facts.

As Samundari clearly pointed out Durand Agreement was signed and affirmed multitude of times. Also there is no 100 year clause. People ought to look at the original document. Next is the issue of imperial power, Britain having flexed the agreement. This might hold some water however on further inspection it is a non starter as well.

If you factor power imbalance between two parties then no agreement could ever be made between two unequal parties as the weaker party would later claim the agreement null and void citing the imbalance of power as justification. This would be ridicalous and almost all agreements the world over would unravel other than few cases where it could be proved both parties were equal at point of agreement.

The Durand Agreement enjoys the weight of de jeure and de facto. Even the mighty Soviet Union respected it in 1980s when it invaded Afghanisatan but did not cross the Durand Line. Furthermore as Pakistan is the successor state to the British Raj all obligations and treaties have been passed over to Pakistan. In 1950 the House of Commons of the United Kingdom held its view on the Afghan-Pakistan dispute over the Durand Line by stating:

"His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom has seen with regret the disagreements between the Governments of Pakistan and Afghanistan about the status of the territories on the North West Frontier. It is His Majesty's Government's view that Pakistan is in international law the inheritor of the rights and duties of the old Government of India and of his Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom in these territories and that the Durand Line is the international frontier.[31]"


— Philip Noel-Baker, June 30, 1950




If you accept that Durand needs revisting then you also need to look at the Amu Darya and the northern boundary between Afghanistan and Central Asia countries. That border was also drawn primarily by British. Afghanistan lost Panjdeh to Russian invaders and to this day is inside Turkmenistan.

"In 1885, Serhetabat and the surrounding region was seized from Afghanistan by the Russian forces as a result of the Panjdeh Incident (also referred to as the Battle of Kushka), in which about 600 Afghan soldiers were overwhelmed by over 2500 Russian forces."

Serhetabat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Panjdeh incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The Afghan Boundary Commission (or Joint Anglo-Russian Boundary Commission) was a joint effort by Great Britain and the Russian Empire to determine the northern border of Afghanistan,"

"Without any Afghan say in the matter, between 1885 and 1888 the Afghan Boundary Commission agreed the Russians would relinquish the farthest territory captured in their military advances, but retain Panjdeh. The agreement delineated a permanent northern Afghan frontier at the Amu Darya, with the loss of a large amount of territory, especially around Panjdeh"

Afghan Boundary Commission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The reality is almost all of borders of Afghanistan are product of external European invaders, either Russian or British. In fact the existance of Afghanistan itself is thanks to it's retention as a "buffer" between Russian and British domains. For those wanting to read more on te matter please read Enclopedia Iranica link provided below. If Durand boundary is artificial so is the northern boundary which separates Turkmens, Uzbeks and Tajiks.

Today we need to drop this rubbish which is going cause even more trouble in this region which has seen enough trouble. The reality is Durand and Afghan Northern boundary have equal currency. If you question one then you question the basis of the other. We therefore today need peace and stability. We need to create a prosperous and stable region so that our people don't have to hide in Turkish lorries to get into Europe as migrants. We need to stop the suffering. Not open another can of worms.

BOUNDARIES iii. Boundaries of Afghanistan – Encyclopaedia Iranica


Pictures of Russian and British officials meeting to draw the Afghan norther boundary.

1885 Routes of Afghan Boundary Commission Maps

Sir Havelock Charles the man primarily responsible for the Afghan northern boundary.He served with the Afghan Boundary Commission from 1884-1886 and was Professor of Anatomy at Lahore Medical College

The book with full details.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Afghanistan actually asked British Indian government during world war II, in 1944, that what would be fate of Pashtuns living on Indian side of Durand line. British told them that since Durand line is an international border, it shouldnt concern them. Later Mountbaitten clarified to Afghans that "agreement with tribes on the North-West frontier of India will have to be negotiated with the appropriate successor authority". This gave some hope to Afghans but Red Shirts (predecessors of ANP) decided to support united India, Khan brothers were promised by Nehru and Gandhi that NWFP will be given autonomy in united India. When creation of Pakistan was imminent, Red Shirts opted for ether azad Pashtunistan or autonomous NWFP within Pakistan.....Afghanistan went along with it.

Its a myth that Bacha Khan and Khudai Khidmatgar struggled of reunification with Afghanistan, their politics was not about loy Afghanistan. They were supporters of united India and if partition had not occurred, they would have stayed with India and would not have raised the Pashtunistan issue. Many Afghans of today dont realize this harsh fact, they assume that entire political career of Bacha Khan before 1947 was all about Loy Afghanistan.

That probably explains why Indians call Bacha Khan Gandhi of Frontier.