DRDO to be build next Generation Phalcons AEW&C for IAF

[Firemaster]

IF ANYONE OUT HERE HAS ANY DOUBTS REGARDING INDIA'S PHASED ARRAY RADARs,then feel free to contact me anytime,i would love to clear all your doubts...
thanks in advance!!

Dear Sir What is our current progress on AESA for a fighter aircraft?
regards

 

[amardeep mishra]

That's actually not possible, because you would have to prove that DRDO was able to deliver any of the techs that I meantioned in time or at least till now, which they didn't. So you might have a better inside about the developments, but can't deny that DRDO failed to fullfil their promises so far.



Which we don't have to, if we have DRDOs AESA techs on the EMB 145 platform, but that's simply not enough for DRDO to prove that they are as capable as other top manufacturers, that's why they push for a bigger platform and a 360° radar, or the other examples that I gave.



But that didn't happened in the past and now, 360° detection is not that important anymore, but that we don't fall even further behind PAF and PLAAF in terms of AWACS coverage, because of the development delays of DRDO. So they should think about the defence of the country first and not their own ego! We need a cost-effective system than can be developed and inducted as soon as possible, not the best system that will be available in future only.

your post is blatantly smearing DRDO without the actual knowledge of how things are developed,i fully agree that meeting deadlines isnt a culture here,and many of DRDO projects have had cost escalations and mis managment but in terms of overall gain,the country has gained a lot...
well,i right now i am in middle of designing a temperature control circuity for industrial applications,i would reply you elaborately and clear all your mis conceptions at the weekend

@sancho...
why dont you better start with the latest 8-channel TRMM patented by the LRDE?hmmm?
and as far the technology of TRMM goes,india is top notch,!you can take my words!believe me!

 

[karan21]

your post is blatantly smearing DRDO without the actual knowledge of how things are developed,i fully agree that meeting deadlines isnt a culture here,and many of DRDO projects have had cost escalations and mis managment but in terms of overall gain,the country has gained a lot...
well,i right now i am in middle of designing a temperature control circuity for industrial applications,i would reply you elaborately and clear all your mis conceptions at the weekend

@sancho...
why dont you better start with the latest 8-channel TRMM patented by the LRDE?hmmm?
and as far the technology of TRMM goes,india is top notch,!you can take my words!believe me!

bhai jaan working at drdo?? email?? add me as frnd.

 

[sancho]

your post is blatantly smearing DRDO without the actual knowledge of how things are developed,i fully agree that meeting deadlines isnt a culture here,and many of DRDO projects have had cost escalations and mis managment but in terms of overall gain,the country has gained a lot...

See, I am fully with you when you say that DRDO is developing important techs for India, but you clearly confirmed my point of view, that there are a lot of internal problems that makes us suffer more than we gain!
Kaveri engine for example is one of the most important development for India and I fully support it as an indigenous project, but the way it was planned and developed was not made with rational and logical thinking, but with pride in first place! DRDO planners throught they could do it alone and without experience and made LCA development even dependent on it. The result of this fatal overestimation is:

=> Kaveri K9 development failed
=> Late procurement of stopgap engines
=> LCA development highly delayed
=> Cost overruns in both developments
=> Serious reduction of IAF squadron numbers, because Mig 21s needs to be phased out without having an alternative now
=> Loss of IAF pilots life, because they still have to fly in very old fighters with technical issues!


DRDO defenitely gained some experience through the K9 development even if it failed, but that doesn't justify the huge downsides that India has to face and instead of distract or find excuses, DRDO should question itself how all this happend and what must be changed!

as far the technology of TRMM goes,india is top notch,!you can take my words!believe me!

Maybe, but that's not important as long as the AWACS and the radars are delayed and can't be inducted into operational service, because that is hitting our security. What's the point to claim we are top notch and we can develop NG techs, when DRDO constantly fail to prove what they promised?

I'm sorry, but I am a rational thinking person and don't jump and celebrate because an indigenous development made a babystep after years of delays and problems. I celebrate when these techs, weapons, vehicles and aircraft are really inducted into operational service and are a benefit for our forces.

Btw, please don't take it personal, I'm speaking in general about our indigenous developers and manufacturers!

 

[The A-5]

Dear Sir What is our current progress on AESA for a fighter aircraft?
regards

two experimental AESA t/r modules (X-band) for LCA have been delivered to IAF for testing
by Astra Microwave Products Ltd., a Hyderabad-based avionics corp. workin in collaboration
with DRDO.

 

[amardeep mishra]

See, I am fully with you when you say that DRDO is developing important techs for India, but you clearly confirmed my point of view, that there are a lot of internal problems that makes us suffer more than we gain!
Kaveri engine for example is one of the most important development for India and I fully support it as an indigenous project, but the way it was planned and developed was not made with rational and logical thinking, but with pride in first place! DRDO planners throught they could do it alone and without experience and made LCA development even dependent on it. The result of this fatal overestimation is:

=> Kaveri K9 development failed
=> Late procurement of stopgap engines
=> LCA development highly delayed
=> Cost overruns in both developments
=> Serious reduction of IAF squadron numbers, because Mig 21s needs to be phased out without having an alternative now
=> Loss of IAF pilots life, because they still have to fly in very old fighters with technical issues!


DRDO defenitely gained some experience through the K9 development even if it failed, but that doesn't justify the huge downsides that India has to face and instead of distract or find excuses, DRDO should question itself how all this happend and what must be changed!




Maybe, but that's not important as long as the AWACS and the radars are delayed and can't be inducted into operational service, because that is hitting our security. What's the point to claim we are top notch and we can develop NG techs, when DRDO constantly fail to prove what they promised?

I'm sorry, but I am a rational thinking person and don't jump and celebrate because an indigenous development made a babystep after years of delays and problems. I celebrate when these techs, weapons, vehicles and aircraft are really inducted into operational service and are a benefit for our forces.

Btw, please don't take it personal, I'm speaking in general about our indigenous developers and manufacturers!

reading your comments i had mixed response of ANGER as well as amusement,lemme clear some of your doubts-
PLEASE READ THIS
I agree,that HAL had been rather sluggish in past,especially till late 90s,the weapons development programs were sluggish and victims of bureocracy till atleast late 90s,but partly it was because of lack of “manufacturing base in india in 80s and 90s”,things have improved “tremendously” starting from 2000s,
now the time required by HAL/DRDO to produce a new technology has reduced to a great extent,as can be seen in various recent examples,like AGNI-5,TAL,LCH,DHRUV,etc etc,
this has been made possible due to “established manufacturing bases and r&d centres”,the country now proudly boasts of many pvt sentor players which have massive manufacturing capabilities and research centres
now I will address major issues-
ENGINE-
well the GTRE’s kaveri engine program has been criticized a lot by all corners,but hardly any of those ever tried to delve into the complexities involved in designing and manufacturing a turbofan engine from scratch..i will try my best to write things based on proper engineering knowledge..
1)designing and developing an efficient,modern turbofan engine with sophisticated FADEC control is awefully challenging task,infact developing a turbofan engine MORE complicated than developing a GSLV rocket(mind you,an indian GSLV MARK-3 rocket can put 5 tonnes into geo synchronous orbit!!)..it is many more times challenging than developing the jet itself…it requires really serious research in metallurgical engineering for years and decades together,
Indian kaveri engine has been perfected over the years and now it proudly boasts of thrust of 82-85kN,however it still falls short of IAF’s GSQR which demands atleast 95kN of thrust in LCA tejas…
this doesn’t limit it’s applicability,and infact IAF has decided to use this engine in less demanding areas like powering UAVs,UCAVs,trainers etc
a marine gas turbine derived from kaveri is already powering Indian naval ship (INS RAJPUT),called KMGT,rated at 12MW(almost 17000hp),
SO overall,the kaveri project has given a positive gain to Indian industry and it has potential to be exported to countries which are looking for gas turbine options to power their naval ships with tonnage lesser than 6000tonnes…
the intellectual property right of kaveri engine belongs to india and all the parts are manufactured in india
..:: India Strategic ::.. Kaveri engine’s naval version doing fine

 

[amardeep mishra]

@sancho...
developing a tech is one thing and "deploying" it in numbers is another...
since you simply "DOWNPLAYED/UNDERMINED" the technical importance of a 8 channel TRMM ,i dont think you are in a position to understand and appreciate my views,because i have worked on our phased array radar rajendra...
i just wish you could come out of your bloggish and "over rational" thinking to understand what it really takes to devlop top notch techs like "indigenous 8-channel TRMM"

 

[amardeep mishra]

@sancho,

if you are really interested to know about these projects especially that related to radars you can contact me,i would love to share some of my experiences,
and since i have worked on rajendra and seen these things first hand,i can provide you with most accurate information,
though i cant reveal all the data here..
till then go through this pdf
http://tejaswy.com/books/Blog/GTRE Kaveri.pdf

 

[shree835]

reading your comments i had mixed response of ANGER as well as amusement,lemme clear some of your doubts-
PLEASE READ THIS
I agree,that HAL had been rather sluggish in past,especially till late 90s,the weapons development programs were sluggish and victims of bureocracy till atleast late 90s,but partly it was because of lack of “manufacturing base in india in 80s and 90s”,things have improved “tremendously” starting from 2000s,
now the time required by HAL/DRDO to produce a new technology has reduced to a great extent,as can be seen in various recent examples,like AGNI-5,TAL,LCH,DHRUV,etc etc,
this has been made possible due to “established manufacturing bases and r&d centres”,the country now proudly boasts of many pvt sentor players which have massive manufacturing capabilities and research centres
now I will address major issues-
ENGINE-
well the GTRE’s kaveri engine program has been criticized a lot by all corners,but hardly any of those ever tried to delve into the complexities involved in designing and manufacturing a turbofan engine from scratch..i will try my best to write things based on proper engineering knowledge..
1)designing and developing an efficient,modern turbofan engine with sophisticated FADEC control is awefully challenging task,infact developing a turbofan engine MORE complicated than developing a GSLV rocket(mind you,an indian GSLV MARK-3 rocket can put 5 tonnes into geo synchronous orbit!!)..it is many more times challenging than developing the jet itself…it requires really serious research in metallurgical engineering for years and decades together,
Indian kaveri engine has been perfected over the years and now it proudly boasts of thrust of 82-85kN,however it still falls short of IAF’s GSQR which demands atleast 95kN of thrust in LCA tejas…
this doesn’t limit it’s applicability,and infact IAF has decided to use this engine in less demanding areas like powering UAVs,UCAVs,trainers etc
a marine gas turbine derived from kaveri is already powering Indian naval ship (INS RAJPUT),called KMGT,rated at 12MW(almost 17000hp),
SO overall,the kaveri project has given a positive gain to Indian industry and it has potential to be exported to countries which are looking for gas turbine options to power their naval ships with tonnage lesser than 6000tonnes…
the intellectual property right of kaveri engine belongs to india and all the parts are manufactured in india
..:: India Strategic ::.. Kaveri engine’s naval version doing fine

Amardeep,
Can understand your feeling and the point you want to highlight…But the world is counting result…as you can see that till date we don’t have a single squadron flying with Kaveri engine…Not sure how to react on this…
Thanks,
-Shree

 

[Black Widow]

Amardeep,
Can understand your feeling and the point you want to highlight…But the world is counting result…as you can see that till date we don’t have a single squadron flying with Kaveri engine…Not sure how to react on this…
Thanks,
-Shree

sorry to interrupt, But there are various reason why We can't See Kaveri's integration to LCA.
a) Bad planning by DRDO and GTRE
b) Wrong attitude of IAF (they changed the requirement from 82 to 98 KN, almost 20% variation. Do you think it is acceptable???
c) New engines are incorporated at the end of development phase, All new machines are tested with old engine later newly developed engine is tested and integrated.
d) if IAF agree current engine can be added to LCA, the performance will vary 8-10 % against current GE404.

 

[sancho]

reading your comments i had mixed response of ANGER as well as amusement,

As I said, I didn't meant you in personal, but DRDO in general and please don't shoot the messenger! My points are valid and the fact that you mainly avoided them in your reply is showing this as well.

Indian kaveri engine has been perfected over the years and now it proudly boasts of thrust of 82-85kN,however it still falls short of IAF’s GSQR which demands atleast 95kN of thrust in LCA tejas

Here again you are avoiding the facts and to make it worse, let yourself go with pride!

IAF’s GSQR were re-evaluated, after it was clear that LCA in general has weight and drag issues, just like that Kaveri has thrust deficits and overweight. The result of this was, that IAF required more power to meet the initial performance specs, but since DRDO was not able to fix Kaveris problems, nor to improve it to this thrust level, even they are prefering the co-development with Snecma.

developing a tech is one thing and "deploying" it in numbers is another...

Very true and as long as DRDO don't start to deliver AWACS, MMR for LCA, AESA for LCA..., there is no operational use for our forces and I think they and the nation have waited long enough now, it is time that DRDO & co. stands up and show more than just promises.

if you are really interested to know about these projects especially that related to radars you can contact me,i would love to share some of my experiences

I am interested in several of DRDOs developments, but I am simply fed up to hear about them for years, see how all the money was wasted and that DRDO shamelessly simply go on to the next "ambitious" project, instead of admitting failure and analysing the mistakes to improve themself.

Since you seems to have knowledge about radars, can you tell us the current status of LCAs MMR? Is the development finished now, will it be used on LCA Mk1, or will it be Elta 2032 like some reports suggest? Are there any reliable performance specs available of the radar?

 

[amardeep mishra]

As I said, I didn't meant you in personal, but DRDO in general and please don't shoot the messenger! My points are valid and the fact that you mainly avoided them in your reply is showing this as well.



Here again you are avoiding the facts and to make it worse, let yourself go with pride!

IAF’s GSQR were re-evaluated, after it was clear that LCA in general has weight and drag issues, just like that Kaveri has thrust deficits and overweight. The result of this was, that IAF required more power to meet the initial performance specs, but since DRDO was not able to fix Kaveris problems, nor to improve it to this thrust level, even they are prefering the co-development with Snecma.



Very true and as long as DRDO don't start to deliver AWACS, MMR for LCA, AESA for LCA..., there is no operational use for our forces and I think they and the nation have waited long enough now, it is time that DRDO & co. stands up and show more than just promises.



I am interested in several of DRDOs developments, but I am simply fed up to hear about them for years, see how all the money was wasted and that DRDO shamelessly simply go on to the next "ambitious" project, instead of admitting failure and analysing the mistakes to improve themself.

Since you seems to have knowledge about radars, can you tell us the current status of LCAs MMR? Is the development finished now, will it be used on LCA Mk1, or will it be Elta 2032 like some reports suggest? Are there any reliable performance specs available of the radar?

kaveri has been perfected in the sense that it can provide a sustained afterburning thrust of 83-85kN(it even passed the high altitude tests ,i mean the latest ones performed on IL-76 platform,and integrating an engine to power IL-76 is certainly a moment of proud for all of our DRDO) ..
though it is a different matter that even 85kN is insufficient for the LCA to perform all the combat manouvres with full load..
here you seemed to be missing few very great implications of kaveri project on our industry which are-
1)it can very well be used for less demanding areas like UAVs,UCAVs,
2)it has already been modified for naval warships,and infact it is doing fine over there by proving 15MW of power(infact DRDO has already tested the KMGT at 12MW at vishakhapatam facility)
3)it can very well be fitted into naval warships
4)gas turbine version of kaveri has already been developed and IR wants loco based on GT,this can produce a massive 17000hp of power and can easily haul a combined load of 11000+ tonnes
5)the country's gas turbine industry has graduated to such a level where it can produce something indigenous instead of relying on GE,the research that went into KAVERI is invaluable and now all the components are manufactured here,this also opens up the prospects of exporting our GAS TUBRINE technology into international market

@sancho...
you really havent seen the LRDE,have you?
LRDE has patented the technology of 8-channel TRMM which is ONE OF THE BEST IN THE WORLD..
two of the indigenous awacs have been delivered to the DRDO after structural modfications ,and more will follow soon..
then,the user trials will start
and the indigenous AWACS will start getting into forces by 2014..
this TRMM(transmit receive multi module) designed by LRDE had a great spin off...
which resulted in various ground based radars like LSTAR and ADITYA radar..
DRDO has completed the trials of AAAU and now the units will transferred to the user for field trials..
i SERIOUSLY SUGGEST YOU TO VISIT LRDE or atleast attend some seminars of Dr christopher or Dr ATRE

as far as the AESA radar for LCA is concerned,a 1/8th model of actual AESA radar(x-band) is already undergoing trials at LRDE banglore ...and,LCA MK-2 will have nothing but AESA MMR

 

[Desi Guy]

Amardeep Mishra ...Sir can you explain in layman's terms that what is benefit of having 8 channel TRMM then say 4 channel....sorry I am not from engineering field ....thanks a lot ...

 

[amardeep mishra]

Amardeep Mishra ...Sir can you explain in layman's terms that what is benefit of having 8 channel TRMM then say 4 channel....sorry I am not from engineering field ....thanks a lot ...

here by 8-channel TRMM ,i meant,8 independent t/r modules embedded on a single board...
here is a pic,that will clear your doubts-
ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/labs/CABS/images/compact1.jpg

http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/labs/CABS/images/compact3.jpg

 

[sancho]

integrating an engine to power IL-76 is certainly a moment of proud for all of our DRDO)

Again, VERY TRUE, the only problem is that it's not a moment of pride for the nation after it was officially de-linked from LCA and has no operational use. If this would have been done some years ago, it would have been a good step during the development and there still would be hope for it in LCA, but at the current stage it's only good to make DRDO happy.

the country's gas turbine industry has graduated to such a level where it can produce something indigenous instead of relying on GE

Don't you see how you prove yourself to be wrong?

Shivalik class frigates as well as IAC1 will have GE LM2500 engines, not to mention that because Kaveri failed, LCA will be powered by GE 404 and 414 engines. So after all we ARE still dependent on foreign engines and still have no operational alternative, that is the key issue I am trying to point out here. I already stated that indigenous engine development is one of the most important fields for India and that DRDO has to go for it, but he problems are the bad planning and low results!

Just answer this for yourself please!

If DRDO wouldn't have linked Kaveri engine development to LCA and had seen it as an independent tech demonstrator project as a base for future Indian engines, while LCA would have been developed with a foreign engine from the begining...

...would we see LCA in operational service today?
...wouldn't Kaveri K9 have been tested on an IL 76 way earlier, because neither weight, nor thrust limits had to be met?
...wouldn't both projects be way easier for DRDO, because they were doing it for the first time and had less pressure like this?


Btw, what about the questions I had wrt to LCA MK1s MMR (puls doppler)?