Doubtful video showing Army 'abusing' in Swat

[Mujahid]

yea but Army did not encourage that act..now did it?It was not Army institutional policy.In fact, Army punished the soldier..asked him to apologize to professor, then gave him 28 days jail..one month salary cut..the CO of 11 corps also apologized.You people love to Generalize..By your analogy, all Pakistanis are as bad as Taliban.

What is this news of soldier and the professor ??

 

[SSG VIPER]

People did u even pay any attention to my FORSAKEN WORDSSSSSSSSSSS

 

[Xeric]

We all should be very clear about one thing that our military is very critical of its discipline and it take its violation very very seriously. You have heard and seen culprits being nabbed and punished in the past and now again you'll see that some (bad guys) would be taken to task as soon the investigation is complete.

Atleast have this much of trust in Pakistan Armed Forces that they are not one of those institutions which always try to put issues and problems under the carpet. Militaries are known for nipping the evil in the bud, and it would sure happen this time again.

Now if still someone thinks that this beating episode took place because of some official policy or he thinks that an isolated act is enough to malign the complete institution or this act would go unchecked then i think he is not thinking from his brains, instead he is upto some deliberate mischief.

 

[Y2A]

I am sorry i just coudln't convinced my self to be on agreement with the author on the naming of the topic, what exactly is the "doubt full" in that video?

PA personals are whipping local residents in a police station which is quite clear in that video and it should be condemned by the people of Pakistan in a straight forward manner, IDOL ship of the person and institutions of our liking is our historical trait, ones we admire we tends to draw circle of "holy believes" around that entity and some times add those emotions as part of our faith and in result we are more likely to stay in state of denial about any fact which is intended to give a glimpse hard truth about them.

 

[Y2A]

Two similar incidents:

1.A fanatic whipping a girl back in march.
2. A group of army men kicking bared old people

is their any difference between the two events, or we are again "picking" the odd one out, think about it.

 

[Patriot]

Well, yes there is a difference.The Taliban thought what they doing were right and they also recited kalmas when they were doing this but the Army Officer involved in beating the old man was punished by Army..put in jail for 28 days, 1 month salary cut..asked to apologize to the man.
Now as far as this new incident is concerned..army is investigating.. and yes, we don't know whether these people were really innocent or taliban helpers.

 

[Y2A]

Well, yes there is a difference.The Taliban thought what they doing were right

so were thoughts of the the army people, their is absolutely no difference in two actions, except of viewing it from the different view ports, both actions will trigger further extremism as a reaction on respective sides.

Army Officer involved in beating the old man was punished by Army..put in jail for 28 days, 1 month salary cut..asked to apologize to the man.

As of now culprit of famous sawat bash is also being captured from D.I Khan just lately and will probably face the justice soon, but is it the individual that matters ? i mean to say he wasn't acting on his own, he represented a mind set, he did what he did on his believe on the faith that what he was doing is in written in the good book and he is just following it, and in doing so it bring disgrace to the faith and to the country, but considering the context of that situation and the manner in which it was CHANNELIZED and the HYPE of sensationalism created and extracted out of the reporting the event had a hideous intention to bring the already weakened peace accord in the area to its ultimate end, i.e sabotage.

Mindset was the problem in that case and so is in this case, Army people were following a believe that they are right and they had the right to suppress and interrogate and every bared men in the area is bound to be taliban or pro-taliban.

army is investigating.. and yes, we don't know whether these people were really innocent or taliban helpers.

Why "Benefit of the doubt" always used as the cover up for the military mess ? why not the benefit of the doubt used to provide some benefit to those people, i know why it wasn't, we have been taught that army is the guardian angel and people confronting them are bound to be evil.

They would've investigated before doing all this, Army is doing what it is trained to do that deal each matter with force with out considering weather it is required or not, no one expects military mind to act in other then military manner, so putting blame on them would be little harsh and injustice, it was the responsibility of civilian government to decide weather they have run out of non-military option or not, but they seemed very happy leaving all the responsibility on the Gen Kiyani's shoulders, Gen Kiyani may be a wise man but same can't be say about all his men, blind support to every military act will ultimately cause catastrophe.

media has successfully created double standards, and most of us are victim of what we've been fed

 

[vsdoc]

Would you like to buy a pair so that you can check it out yourself? Because I can assure you, these boots do not come with a steel-toe.

Dont know if you guys have the same types of boots as us. but here we have the Ammo boots (NCC cadets too wear these) and the DMS boots (army/bsf etc wear these).

Both boots are ankle covering and have 5 eyelets ..... there are slightly taller versions which the partroopers wear (3 inches taller; 9 eyelets) but those are not that common.

The soles of the Ammo boots and the DMS are different. The toe caps of the Ammo boots are metal (steel) while those of the DMS are hardened leather (non-grain - like the heel section too, so you can buff them to a high shine). The hardened leather too is really strong (and can and does do extensive damage if aimed correctly) ..... you can have a car go over them with no damage to the wearer's toes. There are others which are pilot boots worn by the IAF guys ...... fancy, good looking ones, with side zip along with 9 eyelets lace, and lots of padding and misc shoo sha ..... these come with German alloy toe caps and puncture/current resistant soles.

And yes, both types hurt ..... like mad. Ammo boots obviously much more ..... they are heavier, cruder, and way more uncomfortable (take a lot more breaking in). The DMS on their own can comfortably break ribs ..... without working up a sweat.

Cheers, Doc

 

[All-Green]

The PA beating up TTP contacts to get information in order to save lives when people have been kidnapped by TTP is somewhat not as brutal as TTP whipping a girl...there was no reason to beat up the girl from any perspective be it moral, legal or Islamic...TTP had no right to punish any man, woman and child of any part of Pakistan...

The men being beaten in video have worked with TTP and even they are agreeing to that in the video...
they are not random men picked up from the streets...
they may have information because they are the prime suspects who have been suspected of tipping off and helping their TTP accomplices in kidnapping a police patrol...they have also been observed by the agencies in the act of raising slogans in favor of TTP as per the video...

Why do we compare the TTP with the PA even in this video?

There is no comparison here in my opinion, even if it was any of us in place of PA and we were pushed for time and had known TTP affiliates in our custody, we may have done the same to get information...
However...PA will investigate this and work towards improving their tactics...unlike TTP who could get away with anything be it decapitation, dismemberment, flogging etc. by using few words...namely
Allah
Islam
Jihad
US

So sad that such pathetic excuses work for TTP even when inflicting permanent damage and most painful deaths to their victims...on the other hand when PA is a bit rough we are ready to condemn them as similar to TTP!!!

Also i would take this opportunity to say one thing here which i have always felt but did not comment on before...
Shame on us that only a video of a girl being beaten was taken seriously...whereas all what was happening before was ignored
Shame on us that hundreds of men both civilian and uniformed who were beheaded by TTP failed to ignite our nation and failed to make us single minded in eliminating the scum called TTP...
Shame on us that TTP even publicly released many beheading on videos but even such acts did not merit our anger and wrath...

I would ask all of you to watch the videos of numerous bloody beheadings carried out by TTP before taking the moral high ground...
I saw only one video and i was nearly throwing up and could not sleep well for many nights...very easy to condemn the highhandedness of the uniformed men who are fighting the TTP...first you have a look at what kind of men they are up against...

The TTP deserve no mercy from us...

Look what the Egyptians did to the notorious brotherhood when it resorted to terrorism...too sad that they did not get Ayman Al Zawahiri in time...at least the Egyptians were unanimous as a nation against such terrorists who try to use the cliche "conspiracy against Islam" and justify their barbarism which has no place in Islam, whatever the reason may be...

the western countries have not suffered such a horrendous terrorist assault against their civilians and their society on their home turf...had they faced such a threat i am sure you all would have been witness to a deviation from the many peace time values which they strive to uphold...what happened in Swat is very different from a one time terrorist event...it was a nightmare which the people were subjected to for years...

I am not saying that PA has a license to do what it pleases, however for things to go back to normal, PA has to ensure that Police and law enforcement infrastructure is safe and able to operate...
Summary executions of kidnapped law enforcement agents will make all the environment highly unsuitable for post operation reconstruction...some groups shall have to be dealt with the stick in order for the environment to become suitable...there has to be both the carrot of a safe exit and the stick of intimidation to isolate the TTP network to just a few hardcore fighters...one has to deal with the moles by either using the carrot or stick to get the point across...this state of army involvement to support police is to last till the police has ample control and is on top of the situation...

 

[waraich66]

The PA beating up TTP contacts to get information in order to save lives when people have been kidnapped by TTP is somewhat not as brutal as TTP whipping a girl...there was no reason to beat up the girl from any perspective be it moral, legal or Islamic...TTP had no right to punish any man, woman and child of any part of Pakistan...

The men being beaten in video have worked with TTP and even they are agreeing to that in the video...
they are not random men picked up from the streets...
they may have information because they are the prime suspects who have been suspected of tipping off and helping their TTP accomplices in kidnapping a police patrol...they have also been observed by the agencies in the act of raising slogans in favor of TTP as per the video...

Why do we compare the TTP with the PA even in this video?

There is no comparison here in my opinion, even if it was any of us in place of PA and we were pushed for time and had known TTP affiliates in our custody, we may have done the same to get information...
However...PA will investigate this and work towards improving their tactics...unlike TTP who could get away with anything be it decapitation, dismemberment, flogging etc. by using few words...namely
Allah
Islam
Jihad
US

So sad that such pathetic excuses work for TTP even when inflicting permanent damage and most painful deaths to their victims...on the other hand when PA is a bit rough we are ready to condemn them as similar to TTP!!!

Also i would take this opportunity to say one thing here which i have always felt but did not comment on before...
Shame on us that only a video of a girl being beaten was taken so seriously...
Shame on us that hundreds of men both civilian and uniformed who were beheaded by TTP failed to ignite our nation and failed to make us single minded in eliminating the scum called TTP...
Shame on us that TTP even publicly released many beheading on videos but even such acts did not merit our anger and wrath...

I would ask all of you to watch the videos of numerous bloody beheadings carried out by TTP before taking the moral high ground...
I saw only one video and i was nearly throwing up and could not sleep well for many nights...very easy to condemn the highhandedness of the uniformed men who are fighting the TTP...first you have a look at what kind of men they are up against...

The TTP deserve no mercy from us...

Look what the Egyptians did to the notorious brotherhood when it resorted to terrorism...too sad that they did not get Ayman Al Zawahiri in time...at least the Egyptians were unanimous as a nation against such terrorists who try to use the cliche "conspiracy against Islam" and justify their barbarism which has no place in Islam, whatever the reason may be...

the western countries have not suffered such a horrendous terrorist assault against their civilians and their society on their home turf...had they faced such a threat i am sure you all would have been witness to a deviation from the many peace time values which they strive to uphold...what happened in Swat is very different from a one time terrorist event...it was a nightmare which the people were subjected to for years...

I am not saying that PA has a license to do what it pleases, however for things to go back to normal, PA has to ensure that Police and law enforcement infrastructure is safe and able to operate...
Summary executions of kidnapped law enforcement agents will make all the environment highly unsuitable for post operation reconstruction...some groups shall have to be dealt with the stick in order for the environment to become suitable...there has to be both the carrot of a safe exit and the stick of intimidation to isolate the TTP network to just a few hardcore fighters...one has to deal with the moles by either using the carrot or stick to get the point across...this state of army involvement to support police is to last till the police has ample control and is on top of the situation...

In whole NWFP police have no much effective control , their activities are limited inside police stations, maliks and Khan's or elders have their own armed forces responsible for law and order in their areas.

Tribel leaders will never allow army to implement martial law in their areas.

TTP gain stregth due to tribel elders support to fill the vacum created by corrupt political leaders , GOP need to resolve all issues taking in confidence the tribel elders otherwise restoration of peace is impossible.

Army must have to do investigation of abuse if it really happened as shown in vedio .

 

[Patriot]

You spin things in a very good way.Gotta hand it to you.On a sidenote, I was wondering if why Tribals keep getting killed by TTP if they support them?

 

[TaimiKhan]

You spins things in a very good way.Gotta hand it to you.On a sidenote, I was wondering if why Tribals keep getting killed by TTP if they support them?

For that answer check out the last 2 or 3 pages of the Thread Operation Rah-e-Nijat. It will give you an idea.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/28326-operation-rah-e-nijat-18.html This is page 18, check 16 & 17 too.

 

[dabong1]

Two similar incidents:

1.A fanatic whipping a girl back in march.
2. A group of army men kicking bared old people

is their any difference between the two events, or we are again "picking" the odd one out, think about it.

The people who where being beaten in the police station by the army where pointed out by locals as cheerleaders-supporters of the taliban and rounded up.
Are far as i can gather the army sealed a town went in and got the people that the taliban where killing to point out the taliban supporters which they did........the people involved should be rewared and the army guys promoted not punished.

 

[Xeric]

I am sorry i just coudln't convinced my self to be on agreement with the author on the naming of the topic, what exactly is the "doubt full" in that video?

PA personals are whipping local residents in a police station which is quite clear in that video and it should be condemned by the people of Pakistan in a straight forward manner, IDOL ship of the person and institutions of our liking is our historical trait, ones we admire we tends to draw circle of "holy believes" around that entity and some times add those emotions as part of our faith and in result we are more likely to stay in state of denial about any fact which is intended to give a glimpse hard truth about them.

Let's not play fast.

FYkindI, at the time when the news broke out the video was very much doubtful as the authenticity of the video was not certained.

BTW, this very fact was mentioned in every website that had mentioned this news. Please take some time and read the original news, not only from BBC but from all the sources. It is always better to pay attention to words before commenting on them!

 

[Xeric]

Mindset was the problem in that case and so is in this case, Army people were following a believe that they are right and they had the right to suppress and interrogate and every bared men in the area is bound to be taliban or pro-taliban.

You have a problem of understanding here.

Army people do not follow beliefs, they take orders. They take orders as you take orders from who ever. The only difference being in the way they are executed. The orders they they follow are not given by any tom, dick or harry, but by the people who have fought their way
up the ladder. And today these people are very much in consonance with the civilian govt.

If we go by your understanding then one must say that all those who made the decision of fighting this terrorism menace (which included a democratically elected govt, lots of thought process, a chance given to the bad guys to mend their ways, many peace deals etc etc) was just plain wrong!!

i mean so we have a genius like you who today says that using force against these beasts was wrong! Well i think you should wait to reach the Presidentship before you make such suggestions.

As for your claim which says: "that they are right and they had the right to suppress and interrogate and every bared men in the area is bound to be taliban or pro-taliban" i would say that yes they have every right to interrogate just anybody in a war zone. May you need to learn the way interrogations, investigations, suspect segregation etc etc works, both when being done by the Police department or the military. People would and must be interrogated, but they way which is used for interrogation would vary. If i suspect you, Sir i would very much ask you a few questions, but that wouldnt mean that i have to beat you, so no one is saying that what the 'uniformed' persons did was right, but then you should be clear that you or i cant tell the military or specify them about whom should they interrogate and whom not.

And had it been every bared men in the area then i think millions fled the area and then came back, so keeping in mind these sheer numbers atleast millions should have been detained by now and had been interrogated, but guess what it didnt happen. The military or any other interrogating entity doesnt have that much of time to waste, that they should start picking every person in the area and start asking questions from just anybody. There is something known as priority of work and/or target/suspect analysis, learn it!

They would've investigated before doing all this

Well guess what, had you seen the vid carefully and tried to understand the convo taking place you should have known that the interrogating officer knew that (atleast a few of the 'bared' men) were culprits, he did say at a number of times to the 'bared' men that he had the information about what they have done and also told them about their (terroristic) acts, meaning thereby that intelligence was available and these 'bared' men were picked after due deliberation and they were being interrogated, one, for confession, and two, for extracting MORE information as regards to their 'friends' and the 'ticking bomb' (that had been discussed on this thread earlier!)