Does the PA need more troops to fight terror?

[batmannow]

Greetings Gentelmen;
in my opinion, pakistan doesnt need a larger army to fight against global or regional terrorist factions.
having larger armies, buying new weapons can be a solution, but only for a short time period.
if pakistan doesnt control the madrassahs (i hope i type correct) , war against terror in pakistan wont end.
pakistan should reform its education system and form a new one. a new school type can be an important step on solving this problem.
a school giving the science and religion lessons together can be a good alternative to madrassahs. by this way we can control the manpower the terrorist factions get.
of course all this depend on economy, and such a solution may not be something acceptable by regular folks.
i guess we need to keep discussing from this point. in this situation we cant solve anything with rifles and cannons
best regards

Kansu;sir
thanks for your reply !

Turkish army chief says sending troops to Afghanistan is state policy


English_Xinhua
2008-03-25 07:45:16

ANKARA, March 24 (Xinhua) -- Turkish Chief of General Staff Yasar Buyukanit said Monday that sending Turkish troops to Afghanistan was not the policy of Turkish Armed Forces, but a state policy, the semi-official Anatolia news agency reported.

Buyukanit made the remarks at a reception held on the occasion of Pakistan's National Day in Ankara, capital of Turkey.

Upon a question on the dispatch of Turkish troops to Afghanistan, Buyukanit was quoted as saying that "this is not the policy of Turkish Armed Forces, this is a state policy. I will only say that".

Turkish government and military are at odds over sending more combat troops to Afghanistan, local newspaper Turkish Daily News reported last Thursday.

Meanwhile, Turkish Foreign Minister Ali Babacan said the government might consider sending more combat troops to Afghanistan." Turkey has its own terrorism problem but on the other hand it has responsibilities of being a NATO member when fighting against terrorism," Babacan said during a joint press conference with the visiting Afghan FM Rengin Spanta Wednesday.

"The general tendency is to support Afghanistan in all ways, including military ones," he added.
Spanta, for his part, told reporters that he had asked for Turkey's support in fighting against Afghanistan's terrorism problem. "Their response was positive."

However, Buyukanit had said earlier that the military would not dispatch even a single troop to the southern region of Afghanistan to fight against the Taliban.

"Our troops in Kabul are under the ISAF (International Security Assistance Force), which has no mission to fight against terrorism. Our troops are not there for this purpose," said Buyukanit.

NATO and the United States are pressuring allies to do more for the 42,000-strong mission in Afghanistan. NATO will discuss the Afghanistan mission in the upcoming NATO summit that will take place in April in Bucharest, Romania.

so, why turkey was sending its troops to afghanistan?
why NATO still intersted , in troops build up in AFGHANISTAN ?

sory its all numbers game, so pakistan also needs that!

 

[Kansu]

i m sorry for responding you so late Sir. but i m a student and my exams are closing. i was busy with studies.
ok, let me answer your question.

''so, why turkey was sending its troops to afghanistan?

you know, Turkey is the 2. strongest military might of Nato. and Turkish state has too strong and developed relations with afghanistan. historical and political reasons makes us send our troops there. but i should remind you that we dont send our troops there to fight against afghan folks. we are there to help people. the other countries serving under isaf command try to protect their soldiers with very strong and heavily guarded bases. but turkish base is not so heavily guarded and we help afghan people with our schools and hospitals. i cant remember the exact number but hundereds of people had surgical operations in turkish hospital placed in turkish base.
we are in afghanistan to help those people. that country needs to be stabilised. and turkish leadership in afghanistan is important.
we both know that invation of afghanistan was something we couldnt prevent. they came and invaded. and now they keep killing people in afghanistand and pakistan in the name of so called fight against terror.
if we cant prevent this, we should ease the pain of folks. this is our general idea. and our goverment sends our troops there to fix the problem as much as possible in our power.


''why NATO still intersted , in troops build up in AFGHANISTAN ?''
in my opinion invation of afghanistan was a strategical decision. USA used a warhammer to kill a small insect standing on the glass;they couldnt kill the insect but broke the glass
now they have to fight against entire afghan nation. now they wanna leave. but how? if they cant leave a strong goverment behind, usa will be have to pay for the invation. they effort to improve the power of present state. thats all.

and if we be back to the Pakistan; i say my idea again. Pakistan needs a new education system. pakistan's education system was established by the turkish scholars who went there during the age of the Ottoman Empire. and since then, the edcaution system didnt change even a bit in madrassahs. if Pakistan wants to be a strong country, people should give their kids to better schools. by this way, the effect of diobendi school can be reduced. and controling diobendi ecole in Pakistan can be an important step in fighting against terrorism.

please dont misunderstand me. i dont have any intention to give you advice. i cant be so dare. people of pakistan can know the problem of pakistan better than me. but i shared what i thought on the path of solution.
best regards

 

[Zarbe Momin]

In my view presence of Turkey is better in Afghanistan for Pakistan. Although Turkey is member of NATO but because Turkey is an Islamic country so i hope they can help Pakistan to counter corss border movements of Taliban on PAK-Afghan border.

 

[batmannow]

Wednesday April 22, 3:49 PM
Taliban move to expand control in Pakistan


PESHAWAR, Pakistan (AFP) - Taliban militants in Pakistan's Swat valley have moved into another district in a bid to broaden their control despite a deal designed to end extremist violence, officials said. Hundreds of armed Taliban from the scenic northwestern valley have entered Buner district, only 110 kilometres (68 miles) from the capital Islamabad. They have set up checkpoints, occupied mosques and ransacked the offices of non-governmental organisations, a local administration official said. A Taliban commander said they would set up strict Islamic sharia courts in Buner as they have already done in Swat, but would not interfere with police work. Indications of a spread of Taliban activism will likely fuel criticism of the accord agreed by Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari earlier this month for Swat, which the United States said amounted to capitulation. The central government lost control in Swat, a former ski resort and jewel in the crown of Pakistani tourism, after a violent two-year militant campaign to enforce strict Taliban-style sharia law. It agreed to allow sharia law courts in Malakand, a district of some three million people in North West Frontier Province that includes the Swat valley, in order to halt the violence. Despite that, the Taliban have not yet disarmed and appear to be trying to exert and expand control. "The Taliban who have arrived from Swat have increased patrolling, banned music in public transport and rampaged (through the) offices of NGOs and taken their vehicles," local government official Rashid Khan said. "Taliban militants armed with rocket launchers were manning the checkpoints and operating from local mosques," he said, added that a report had been filed at the local police station against "unknown militants." A Taliban commander said his men in Buner would set up an FM radio station and Islamic courts in the mountainous town. "We will soon establish our radio station. Our Qazis (Islamic judges) will also start holding courts in Buner soon," Mohammad Khalil told AFP. "We will not interfere in the police work, they can continue their job," he said, adding their purpose was to end a "sense of deprivation" and to provide speedy justice. "People in their dozens have come to invite us" to extend sharia. Swat valley descended into chaos when a radical cleric, Maulana Fazlullah, used his illegal FM channel to threaten opponents and motivate his followers, residents say. Fazlullah's men executed dozens of state workers and government supporters, prompting thousands of people to flee. Muslim Khan, a Taliban spokesman, told AFP from Swat that "the government writ is not being challenged in Buner and Taliban are not creating any hurdle in the administration's work." "The Taliban will leave Buner after enforcement of Islamic justice system," he said. However, several residents said they felt "scared" and planned to leave the Buner area, fearing similar violence to that in Swat. North West Frontier Province's information minister Mian Iftikhar Hussain said the government had fulfilled its promises in Malakand, "and the Taliban must lay down their arms." "The militants' activities in Buner are in violation of the peace accord. After the agreement there is no justification to take up arms," Hussain said, although he played down reports the Taliban had taken over the district. "The government writ in Buner is intact," he said, insisting that officials had not abandoned the area. Meanwhile, in neighbouring Dir district, a senior administration official was kidnapped by "unknown" people, according to another official.


still people thinks , that FC can control the things there ? come on guys, pakistan army needs numeric power, to kill these mulla-talaibanizm?
we need a force with fire , which can let these "armed Talibans" under control so ,plz support it, lossing grounds like above or accepting thier agenda, will going to hurt rest of pakistan for sure!

 

[Zarbe Momin]

Idiot politicans need courage to stop Taliban. Army and ISI also have soft corner for extremists. This Cat & Pigeon game should be finish now.

 

[batmannow]

i guss, now its the time when many of our gentlemens on the fourm will changed thier minds about FC?
because now pakarmy has TO cover both of our boders EASTREN & WESTREN ,at the same time, now can FC do the job?
i guss , answer is no, so from now on plz support the thread , we need a force which can independently handle the situation, & without withdrawing the troops from the hot-spots like EASTREN boders, its the time when we, shouldnt be disscusing financess, budgets etc.
its now or never, for PAKISTAN!

 

[JK!]

Batmannow raising a 200000 force costs money that Pakistan doesn't have.

Getting rid of the frontier corps will leave a security vaccum that the nation cannot afford at such a crucial time. Enhancing their fighting capability as well as the police force is a matter of urgency. You've already heard that the new training is paying off in this thread from Fatman.

You say people should ignore economics when it is a vital factor in encouraging young men with no prospects of taking up the terrorists standard.

What do you propose to tell the common man who only see's an expensive operation being fought when he cannot even feed his kids?

 

[JK!]

I'd also like to add the view that it matters not how many men fight but given the capitualtion to militants in SWAT the state does not have the stomach to fight.

As a friend put it were Pakistan fighting India peoples of all ages would charge with pitchforks, brooms, rocks, kitchen knives, and anything else that they could lay their hands on.

A lack of moral fibre one might say.

I can see some serving members and others calling the above an act of disrespect to servicemen killed or maimed in this war.

Quite frankly the fact every step isn't being taken to win this war decisively is greater insult to those men.

 

[batmannow]

I'd also like to add the view that it matters not how many men fight but given the capitualtion to militants in SWAT the state does not have the stomach to fight.

As a friend put it were Pakistan fighting India peoples of all ages would charge with pitchforks, brooms, rocks, kitchen knives, and anything else that they could lay their hands on.

A lack of moral fibre one might say.

I can see some serving members and others calling the above an act of disrespect to servicemen killed or maimed in this war.

Quite frankly the fact every step isn't being taken to win this war decisively is greater insult to those men.

JK!; dear sir,
so thn we should stop fighting , & surrender to talibans?
why not put all FC in new force?
a lot of money , we are getting on the name of WOT, where it is going , even one can ask from the world , & i know they can get it easily, its better to stop our political & militry leadership & their shoping tours of USA, its achiveble , if there is a will there is always way?
just a question of stronger will?
money is not a problem,for the defence of pakistan!
i guss, after this failed peace accord ,nothing had been left to talk further more?

 

[JK!]

My point was the opposite Batmannow,

IMHO Pakistan needs to launch a concerted and decisive "search and destroy" operation as a matter of urgency instead of this continueing and useless cycle of peace deal/attack/peace deal/attack

 

[niaz]

I drove down to Dubai for a few days early this week attending Mid East Petroleum & Gas Conference. I came across an old school mate who is a retired Col of the Punjab Regiment. Naturally the discussion ended up on the subject of Taliban and Swat deal. What I understood from the discussion is:

PA is now demoralized. They have no stomach for fighting Taliban. Pakistan electronic and Urdu print media created the impression that WOT is US‘s war and GOP is asking them to kill Pakistani Muslim brothers. What is the harm in implementing Sharia in an Islamic country? The killing will stop when Army stops fighting Taliban.

That is why even Army supported Swat deal. Of course not all but a large part of NCOs and common soldiers sharre this view. Even highly educated women intellectuals such as Shireen Mazari are writing columns in favour of the Swat deal! In such a scenario, increasing the number of troops will be of no benefit whatsoever. I find the situation very alarming, it is a no win situation but what is there to do?

 

[batmannow]

I drove down to Dubai for a few days early this week attending Mid East Petroleum & Gas Conference. I came across an old school mate who is a retired Col of the Punjab Regiment. Naturally the discussion ended up on the subject of Taliban and Swat deal. What I understood from the discussion is:

PA is now demoralized. They have no stomach for fighting Taliban. Pakistan electronic and Urdu print media created the impression that WOT is US‘s war and GOP is asking them to kill Pakistani Muslim brothers. What is the harm in implementing Sharia in an Islamic country? The killing will stop when Army stops fighting Taliban.

That is why even Army supported Swat deal. Of course not all but a large part of NCOs and common soldiers sharre this view. Even highly educated women intellectuals such as Shireen Mazari are writing columns in favour of the Swat deal! In such a scenario, increasing the number of troops will be of no benefit whatsoever. I find the situation very alarming, it is a no win situation but what is there to do?

niaz; dear sir,
no , i dont agree with your disscussion with that colnl!
i have a lot of freinds still in service with PAKARMY & belive me , they arent demoralized at at all.
you can say that right now PAKARMY'S down cadre is in shock why?
because of the mental & physical support of TALIBAN , from our retd genrals from late 80's. who are backing & traning TALIBANS before & till now.

time has come for PAKARMY TO EMMBRACE itself , & save pakistan from TALIBANIZATION!

 

[Xeric]

I drove down to Dubai for a few days early this week attending Mid East Petroleum & Gas Conference. I came across an old school mate who is a retired Col of the Punjab Regiment. Naturally the discussion ended up on the subject of Taliban and Swat deal. What I understood from the discussion is:

PA is now demoralized. They have no stomach for fighting Taliban. Pakistan electronic and Urdu print media created the impression that WOT is US‘s war and GOP is asking them to kill Pakistani Muslim brothers. What is the harm in implementing Sharia in an Islamic country? The killing will stop when Army stops fighting Taliban.

That is why even Army supported Swat deal. Of course not all but a large part of NCOs and common soldiers sharre this view. Even highly educated women intellectuals such as Shireen Mazari are writing columns in favour of the Swat deal! In such a scenario, increasing the number of troops will be of no benefit whatsoever. I find the situation very alarming, it is a no win situation but what is there to do?

Niaz sir, the Armies just dont demoralize like that!

Coming back from an operation on orders of the govt doesn't mean that a soldier would be demoralized.

Army is all disciplined, that's what Army is all about. You tell me, go fight, i fight, you ask me to come back, i come back. Why the bad feeling? Unless there was something personal going on while the Army was fighting the Talibans.

Pak Army is and will be in high state of morale!

It had no reason to demoralize, the Army has an excellent procedure of removing misconceptions and doubts amongst the troops. It is a routine that these measures and procedures are adopted regularly so that any propaganda and deliberate attempt to misguide the troops is thwarted at the very onset!

Probably the Karnel Saab is himself demoralized, please tell him to cheer up, the army is still hefty and fine

 

[RescueRanger]

Firstly PA has full time strenght of 550,000 and a reserve of 500,000 (thats in excess of 1 million troops) so no we dont need more soliders.... Secondly... We are raising 100,000 Paramilitary force (20K for each province) at District level we are developing a new police performance program which will include better allocation of resource (Motorpool, Human Resource, CCTV).

At Thesil and Union Council level the Zilla Nazim will start to draft plans for development of a local anti-terror policy in cooperation with local SSP Special Branch.

.... So i dont think we need more troops.

Now coming to Niaz's point. Niaz, my friend the ARMY ( This is the JAWAN's) have not lost the will to fight, they are willing to kill and get killed. The problem is our leaders (Gen K) included are spineless wimps who will not exercise their power.

Come on People, do you really think we cannot take on the Taliban on our own turf (we have all this sophisticated equipment)... This is all a big political sham to get more aid and to make Pakistan weaker, somthing Mr. Zardari is very good at...

Agar aj Fauj ko green light miljaye, and we combat these dogs on a war footing (we can make huge strides) but these spineless wimps will never fight. (Level ke bath hootey hai na) in ka wo level he nahi hai!

 

[fatman17]

I drove down to Dubai for a few days early this week attending Mid East Petroleum & Gas Conference. I came across an old school mate who is a retired Col of the Punjab Regiment. Naturally the discussion ended up on the subject of Taliban and Swat deal. What I understood from the discussion is:

PA is now demoralized. They have no stomach for fighting Taliban. Pakistan electronic and Urdu print media created the impression that WOT is US‘s war and GOP is asking them to kill Pakistani Muslim brothers. What is the harm in implementing Sharia in an Islamic country? The killing will stop when Army stops fighting Taliban.

That is why even Army supported Swat deal. Of course not all but a large part of NCOs and common soldiers sharre this view. Even highly educated women intellectuals such as Shireen Mazari are writing columns in favour of the Swat deal! In such a scenario, increasing the number of troops will be of no benefit whatsoever. I find the situation very alarming, it is a no win situation but what is there to do?

My Dear Niaz Sb,
Sir, I have a lot of respect for you and your opinions on this forum, as do a lot of others, but I dont agree with your assumption here.

When officers retire they tend to find/get into a "Glasnost & Peristroika" mode so to speak, which is good but not reflective of the realities. this has been happening a lot lately with certain officers who still want to feel important (as they did when they were in uniform. just imagine your colonel friend, as 800 soldiers stand to attention on the snap of his fingers)

Your assertion that the army has supported the swat deal is incorrect. I dont have any inside information but reading opinions,op-eds and talking to retd and serving officers, clearly show that the army is not on board and the only reason Gen.Kiyani withdrew the army was because he wanted the "politicians"(who are nothing but fuedal lords masqurading as politicians) to try and sort this thing out. in my HO this current situation is completely over their heads.

Now what has been the result - PML-N, has had done a sudden about-face on the swat deal as well as the nizam-e-adl (and their media friends (Geo) dont know what to do!). PML as you will agree is now the leading party of the Punjab. The MQM has vigourously slammed the deal - the taliban, TTP and the sufi are making statements against the writ of the state, attacking FC/army convoys and posts, taking over buner, and other districts and all hell is about to break lose - all their actions are in contravention of the 16-point swat deal.

The taliban are 60m from Islamabad as the crow flies, and our intrepid ambassador in the US says that Islamabad is not under threat for now, but maybe he even realises that things are going out of control and it is going to be a matter of time when this govt. will have no other option left but to call on the army to stem this rot.

IF it comes to that and by all counts it seems to be the case, the recommendation to the army would be to ensure that the TOE's are clear and explicit and the operations should be full-bore!

As the army clears the areas (like it did in bajaur), the economic and development program should start immediately, there should be no gap/lapse so that the local population can see first-hand that the govt. is their friend and wants to improve their lives and existence.

Both these actions need to go hand-in-hand other-wise, the gains of the kinetic actions will be lost, the taliban/militants will return and the local population will once again be coerced into believing that the taliban way-of-life (sic) is the only option.



Now back to the thread - does the PA need more troops. for now NO. but for the future it immediately needs to plan and implement the raising of a independent divisional strenth of infantry troops properly trained in CI, fully mobile with air-support to tackle such situations in the near-term. this will kill the current discussion that the PA can only fight a conventional war on the eastern borders and cannot tackle its western borders.