Do you think religion is a personal matter ?

[I.R.A]

Quote the exact Quranic verse please ...

As for Hadith, there are contradictions ... Some say he appointed Imam Ali (AS) as his successor ....
Others say that he implicitly appointed Abu Bakr (RA) ...

You already know I cannot provide a Quranic verse to prove that Muhammad Peace be upon him had appointed a successor. But then again I think it should be sufficient for you to understand that a person given the huge responsibility of Quran and implementing its system is not expected to leave that system orphan after his departure. Come on please ....... people who gathered and collected hadith should have thought about it, but sadly they didn't. And hadith is no word of ALLAH, its historical accounts and traditions which don't have a written source, all verbal that too centuries after.

No, it's not ... The Holy Qur'an is a book of guidance for all mankind, as stated in the Qur'an itself ...

And please quote the exact Quranic verse which "clearly" mentions the concept of state, as we understand it today

[22:41] "They are those who, if we appointed them as rulers on earth, they would establish the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat), and would advocate righteousness and forbid evil. GOD is the ultimate ruler."

Now you can argue modern states and whatever ....... but Quran is not a message for homes (as you accepted), it would be foolish to conclude that message is for the whole humanity but it doesn't require a proper state / authority, it can be practiced within boundary walls of our houses ....... No it cannot.

[4:54]
"Or do they envy people for what Allah has given them of His bounty? But we had already given the family of Abraham the Scripture and wisdom and conferred upon them a great kingdom."

Zulqarnain, Suleman, Yousaf, Ibrahim, Nooh, Loot, Musa, Essa (the most helpless Messenger according to traditions), Muhammad ... Peace be upon all of them ..... were given authority ........ and authority without a system is useless, and a system without a state is meaningless.

 

[Holmes]

All religions have only 50% truth.

 

[SecularNationalist]

For Muslims it's based on Islam because for Muslims Islam is the first and last thing they stand with and always will stand with. We give a dam about other criteria of judging. For me what is assuming is those people who believe in GOD being creator and still think they know better than GOD

Keep living in your little sheltered world maulana jee

 

[Wolfhunter]

YES.

 

[Hareeb]

Yes, its the matter between man and the God. No one should impose their religion or the way they pray on others.

 

[TheLahoriGuy]

No but world should also not cry if we start a nuclear war and everything vanishes in Air

HAHAHAHAHA

So not only are you going to put your nose in the lives of your own countrymen but you also want to bomb others who aren't living according to you. Sounds like a familiar ideology. Have you sent your CV to the Taliban yet ?

Do you understand the difference between religion i.e. "Mazhab" and Deen i.e. say "Social order" ? Just to check how much influenced you are with traditional definitions, assumptions and beliefs that you have been fed since childhood .....

Islam is deen and shia sunni are mazhab ......... if fasting, speaking truth, refraining from adultery, not drinking, praying, performing rituals etc were Deen .... then this is all present in other religions as well .... have you ever wondered then why Islam should be different from other religions? What is so special about Islam, if all that your traditional narratives promoted as being Islam, are already present in older religions then why there is need for Islam? They too believe in God.

Think and leave the traditional conservative preconceived beliefs aside ..... read again with a blank mind and you may understand why Islam is different and why a state is necessary.

That arguement makes no sense. Why was Islam (or the previous faiths) revealed to mankind in the first place ? Because mankind had forgotten the word of God each time. You said it yourself that all Abrahamic religions do indeed share most of their beliefs. Islam doesn't negate the teachings of the Bible or the Torah because they all contain the same basic principles. And you didn't answer what was the role of the state in the first place. If a belief or way of life is being enforced then it isnt true belief at all, hell it's just being a munafiq.

 

[Wolfhunter]

HAHAHAHAHA

So not only are you going to put your nose in the lives of your own countrymen but you also want to bomb others who aren't living according to you. Sounds like a familiar ideology. Have you sent your CV to the Taliban yet ?

 

[I.R.A]

That arguement makes no sense. Why was Islam (or the previous faiths) revealed to mankind in the first place ? Because mankind had forgotten the word of God each time. You said it yourself that all Abrahamic religions do indeed share most of their beliefs. Islam doesn't negate the teachings of the Bible or the Torah because they all contain the same basic principles.

When I said that all good deeds are common amongst all religions, I wasn't excluding non Abrahamic religions. Even Atheists would tell you that stealing, telling lies etc are bad deeds. So again what makes Islam so special? How is it different than others? The answer lies in how real Islam was reduced to a religion. What you see all around you is mostly religion and not Islam.

Mankind wasn't like this from start ....... they evolved, evolved mentally and physically to be ready to become humans. And gradually it was the divine guidance that led them to become humans. This evolution and guidance took a lot of years, gradual and not all of sudden in one go ..... till the final divine message was revealed. Now that is another thing how you understand the final message, through the lens of a scholar who lived centuries ago or you read it yourself to understand according to your times. And may be you will find that reading it through lens of a centuries ago scholar had reduced Islam to being a religion, stagnant. And hence frustration of people like yourself.

And you didn't answer what was the role of the state in the first place. If a belief or way of life is being enforced then it isnt true belief at all, hell it's just being a munafiq.

This is childish you know. What you have in mind is religion and what I am advocating for is not religion, but its opposite Deen.

What is the role of state in today's time?

 

[TheLahoriGuy]

When I said that all good deeds are common amongst all religions, I wasn't excluding non Abrahamic religions. Even Atheists would tell you that stealing, telling lies etc are bad deeds. So again what makes Islam so special? How is it different than others? The answer lies in how real Islam was reduced to a religion. What you see all around you is mostly religion and not Islam.

Mankind wasn't like this from start ....... they evolved, evolved mentally and physically to be ready to become humans. And gradually it was the divine guidance that led them to become humans. This evolution and guidance took a lot of years, gradual and not all of sudden in one go ..... till the final divine message was revealed. Now that is another thing how you understand the final message, through the lens of a scholar who lived centuries ago or you read it yourself to understand according to your times. And may be you will find that reading it through lens of a centuries ago scholar had reduced Islam to being a religion, stagnant. And hence frustration of people like yourself.




This is childish you know. What you have in mind is religion and what I am advocating for is not religion, but its opposite Deen.

What is the role of state in today's time?

It has minimal role. At it should be. Everyone should be allowed to live their life according to their own beliefs. That stuff you said about reading through a lens is a complete wtf. And yes you're right that religion has indeed shaped mankind to be better but we're living in modern times now. Tell me one thing. Are non-islamic societies completely corrupted ? I mean sure one could argue that they're moral compass isn't straight ahead and they're godless people but would it be fair to say that because they don't believe in religion as much as we do they are all murderers,liars,morally corrupted and act like animals ? Ofcourse not. Not lying , killing, acting like animals are not only islamic values, they are also human values. So your claim that unless there's a state morally policing us all the time we'd be mindless barbarians is proven false by a couple billion people.

 

[Zarvan]

HAHAHAHAHA

So not only are you going to put your nose in the lives of your own countrymen but you also want to bomb others who aren't living according to you. Sounds like a familiar ideology. Have you sent your CV to the Taliban yet ?



That arguement makes no sense. Why was Islam (or the previous faiths) revealed to mankind in the first place ? Because mankind had forgotten the word of God each time. You said it yourself that all Abrahamic religions do indeed share most of their beliefs. Islam doesn't negate the teachings of the Bible or the Torah because they all contain the same basic principles. And you didn't answer what was the role of the state in the first place. If a belief or way of life is being enforced then it isnt true belief at all, hell it's just being a munafiq.

We are what we are least concerned about what seculars say we give a dam we follow ALLAH and his RASOOL SAW and their orders will be enforced and implemented no matter what the cost is

 

[El Sidd]

what are you laughing at freckles??

 

[TheLahoriGuy]

We are what we are least concerned about what seculars say we give a dam we follow ALLAH and his RASOOL SAW and their orders will be enforced and implemented no matter what the cost is

"Enforced No matter what the cost is".......
Got it. You're a terrorist.

 

[I.R.A]

So your claim that unless there's a state morally policing us all the time we'd be mindless barbarians is proven false by a couple billion people.

What is wrong and what is right ..... was it the man who decided that? ... man born a beast with hunters traits? If you accept that humans were made humans not by their own wish and desire, but by a divine process spreading over many years of our time ..... then you should accept that they remain prone to faults and wrong deeds ...... someone's wrong may be right for me, and vice versa my wrong may be right for someone else ..... there are cultures which have accepted homosexuality as normal, which in my opinion is digressing to the lowest level of humanity ... it can never be natural ..... so please its not about being the Godly men or Godless men, its about being knowledgeable and wise enough to call a wrong a wrong no matter even if the whole world opposes it. Society building of humans ...

"........Only that way of life can survive which is beneficial for the whole of mankind..... (13:17)"

You are stuck with and are confused because of traditional conventional understanding of Islam (I am sorry to say that), you don't seem to get past Sharia nightmare, what I am trying to debate with you is totally different thing, its not conventional and its not your traditional understanding of Islam and Islamic state.

If you are interested please do give this link a reading. "Islam a challenge to Religion"

By the way which state doesn't do the policing?

 

[TheLahoriGuy]

What is wrong and what is right ..... was it the man who decided that? ... man born a beast with hunters traits? If you accept that humans were made humans not by their own wish and desire, but by a divine process spreading over many years of our time ..... then you should accept that they remain prone to faults and wrong deeds ...... someone's wrong may be right for me, and vice versa my wrong may be right for someone else ..... there are cultures which have accepted homosexuality as normal, which in my opinion is digressing to the lowest level of humanity ... it can never be natural ..... so please its not about being the Godly men or Godless men, its about being knowledgeable and wise enough to call a wrong a wrong no matter even if the whole world opposes it. Society building of humans ...

"........Only that way of life can survive which is beneficial for the whole of mankind..... (13:17)"

You are stuck with and are confused because of traditional conventional understanding of Islam (I am sorry to say that), you don't seem to get past Sharia nightmare, what I am trying to debate with you is totally different thing, its not conventional and its not your traditional understanding of Islam and Islamic state.

If you are interested please do give this link a reading. "Islam a challenge to Religion"

By the way which state doesn't do the policing?

Which state does the moral policing to the level that countries under shariah law do ? I'm stuck on the shariah nightmare because it is indeed a nightmare. If you're extending a matter between man and God to the state then and allowing them do decide how you should act then it is no short of a nightmare. As for being able to call wrong a wrong, the definition of both right and wrong have changed through the ages and even the holiest of men can attest to this. For example slavery is defined in great detail in the shariah because it was according to the norms of the time. As of now all Islamic states under varying amounts of Shariah have outlawed slavery and any concept of the sorts (same goes for giving women democratic rights) but according to you the definitions of right and wrong are predetermined, so do you support this decision ?

 

[SALMAN F]

Yes but some religions want everyone to believe in them and follow them they also demand their followers to pray