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Do Pak textbooks build a hate culture against India?

Nobody hates you.Trust me;)

I request the great, self righteous, sho shweet:smitten: starter of this extremely knowledgable thread to kindly do the honor and rename it as...Do Pak textbooks build hate culture against Hindu fanatics?

Allow me to confer .The answer is YES, Whats not to hate?

Now don't go for a "tit for tat" tactics when replying.
"we also hate Muslim extremists and not to mention....Burka"

because I know you do:rofl: and so do we:enjoy:

History textbooks are supposed to give an objective view, not build hate against anyone or anything.

Those who cannot understand, hate. And those who hate, cannot understand.
 
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Please feel free to look at all the poll related data on their respective websites, and provide your objections.

Gallup, Pew research etc. are all extremely well established organizations with a history of conducting accurate polling. That and the fact that multiple polls taken over multiple years bay multiple polling organizations have offered the same result adds tremendous credibility to the conclusions they draw.

Your argument against that is an unscientific 'opinion' based on articles you have read, or the views of a handful of people on a forum that you perceive as 'anti-Indian'. This is gibberish.

I could point out even more nasty and derogatory comments against Pakistanis by Indians from websites with far higher traffic. I could also point to writings by reputable authors, former government officials and military officers, that drip with anti-Pakistan hatred, and also argue that the 'ease with which so many Indians fall into bashing Pakistan', and Indian you tube videos is indicative of a sustained and systematic brainwashing and propaganda campaign in India.

Nothing has been presented to refute the conclusions arrived at by the various polls - which are the only empirical evidence on this thread so far, collected over multiple years by multiple reputable organizations.

You are trying to argue against the weight of a whole lot of evidence staring you right in the face, and refusing to acknowledge that evidence. I almost suspect that propagandist brainwashing thing in India is true... you seem so influenced by it that you cannot think beyond it.

Very well written synopsis and thoroughly backed too.:pdf:
 
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Nobody hates you.Trust me;)

I request the great, self righteous, sho shweet:smitten: starter of this extremely knowledgable thread to kindly do the honor and rename it as...Do Pak textbooks build hate culture against Hindu fanatics?

Allow me to confer .The answer is YES, Whats not to hate?

Now don't go for a "tit for tat" tactics when replying.
"we also hate Muslim extremists and not to mention....Burka"

because I know you do:rofl: and so do we:enjoy:

You sure as well have a valid point. However, knowing the Indians of different regions, for your information the fully covered Burka (the shuttle **** one) is actually inherited by us from Rajistan area and I was surprised that their womenfolk totally cover their face & I take care I am talking about the Hindus.

I would not insist that it is a Arab way of covering the head as normally they are with open face or at least open front.
 
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You sure as well have a valid point. However, knowing the Indians of different regions, for your information the fully covered Burka (the shuttle **** one) is actually inherited by us from Rajistan area and I was surprised that their womenfolk totally cover their face & I take care I am talking about the Hindus.

I would not insist that it is a Arab way of covering the head as normally they are with open face or at least open front.

Wow...there's a bit of self-serving invention. Do you want me to post pictures of Arabic, Iranian, Iraqi, Yemeni, Egyptian and Turkish women wearing the "shuttle"?
Did they inherit this from Rajasthan too? :rolleyes:
 
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Please feel free to look at all the poll related data on their respective websites, and provide your objections.

Gallup, Pew research etc. are all extremely well established organizations with a history of conducting accurate polling. That and the fact that multiple polls taken over multiple years bay multiple polling organizations have offered the same result adds tremendous credibility to the conclusions they draw.

Your argument against that is an unscientific 'opinion' based on articles you have read, or the views of a handful of people on a forum that you perceive as 'anti-Indian'. This is gibberish.

I could point out even more nasty and derogatory comments against Pakistanis by Indians from websites with far higher traffic. I could also point to writings by reputable authors, former government officials and military officers, that drip with anti-Pakistan hatred, and also argue that the 'ease with which so many Indians fall into bashing Pakistan', and Indian you tube videos is indicative of a sustained and systematic brainwashing and propaganda campaign in India.

Nothing has been presented to refute the conclusions arrived at by the various polls - which are the only empirical evidence on this thread so far, collected over multiple years by multiple reputable organizations.

You are trying to argue against the weight of a whole lot of evidence staring you right in the face, and refusing to acknowledge that evidence. I almost suspect that propagandist brainwashing thing in India is true... you seem so influenced by it that you cannot think beyond it.

For now, I would only say that I am nowhere disregarding the opinion polls and I agree with them as good objective data, perhaps the most weighty evidence presented on this thread.

All I am saying is that I am not ready to disregard all the other sources that help build my perceptions. I don't think that is unfair at all.
 
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Yeah.. Perceptions are generated now a days by hearing a mionrity voice rather than a majority..!! Infact i was even surprised to know that pakistanis do party, have discos and people are outgoing modern etc..!! It was just the perception people had.. its a matter of time that these goes away, once the communication channels like these are open. You have to hear BOTH VOICES to know what a country is. I belive its the job of the moderates to overshadow the voices of Extremists to make sure one's country is not percieved in a particular extrimsit way..!!!! And this goes either ways..!!! World have been projecting india as the largest democracy.. even though we had major human rights violations in the country..!! That is because the majoirty moderates voice is stronger and our law and order system was able to contain and act by the majority voice..!!! That is why gujarat didnt spread to Mumbai... Orissa didnt spread to kerala..!!!!
 
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History textbooks are supposed to give an objective view, not build hate against anyone or anything.

Those who cannot understand, hate. And those who hate, cannot understand.

Flintlock!! didn't you get the hint of irony?
I mean its not what textbooks intend to do.Naturally it makes us feel bad when we read about ugly things.

We are normal people and we've got important things to deal with in real life.I mean come on! we don't assail our mind every now and again and keep saying to ourselves that "We hate fanatics!!!...We hate extremists!" No its not like that.Neither all of Pakistan is up against India or fanatics on a war for that matter.
Please! Relax yourself!
 
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Flintlock!! didn't you get the hint of irony?
I mean its not what textbooks intend to do.Naturally it makes us feel bad when we read about ugly things.

We are normal people and we've got important things to deal with in real life.I mean come on! we don't assail our mind every now and again and keep saying to ourselves that "We hate fanatics!!!...We hate extremists!" No its not like that.Neither all of Pakistan is up against India or fanatics on a war for that matter.
Please! Relax yourself!

Please. You've just been typing that you "hate" brahmins, which is basically nothing but racism.

And no, I don't hate extremists, though I dislike their actions and their ideology.

You've been trying to deny the whole while that Pakistani textbooks paint hindus as dishonest villians, while there are numerous news articles directly quoting sentences from Pakistani textbooks that prove the point. Its really strange.


US concern at Pakistan textbooks

By Aamer Ahmed Khan
BBC News, Karachi

The United States has described some of the material contained in Pakistani textbooks as "inciteful" and said it was an issue of "serious concern".


The US said it feared the material might "cause people to... lash out with violent actions".

Despite two government reviews of the textbooks, a leading Pakistan NGO says little has changed.

Pakistan's school curriculum has been in the spotlight since the 11 September attacks in the US.

Pakistan and the US are key allies in the latter's war on terror.

US State Department spokesman, Sean McCormack, was commenting on media reports that jihad, or holy war, was still a part of school curriculum in Pakistan.

"We have engaged the Pakistani government on... the issue of textbooks and language that... was clearly, clearly unacceptable and inciteful or would cause people to perhaps lash out with violent actions," he told a press briefing on Thursday.

He said the US had raised the matter with the Pakistani education minister during his visit to Washington in March.

Independent review


The administration of President Pervez Musharraf asked the education ministry in March 2002 to undertake a comprehensive review of all textbooks.

Picture in a grade 7 history textbook showing a weapon used by Muslim warriors
Textbooks have been accused of glorifying war

But the review recommended that no major changes were required in the existing curriculum.

This prompted one of Pakistan's most respected non-government organisations, the Sustainable Development Policy Institute (SDPI), to undertake an independent review.

It examined textbooks for Urdu, English, Social Studies and Civics from grades one to 12 (5-18 years) and came out with its report a few months after the ministry's review. The findings created a furore.

It found "falsehoods, distortions and omissions" in all the textbooks, which it said defied Pakistan's declared objective of turning into a modern, dynamic state.

I don't think anything has changed in substance
Ahmed Salim, Sustainable Development Policy Institute

It also found the books "full" of material "encouraging or justifying discrimination against women, religious and ethnic minorities and other nations".


The report said that most of the textbooks incited "militancy and violence, including encouragement of holy war and martyrdom".

There were repeated instances of "glorification of war and the use of force".

The religious parties in particular were incensed at the report and labelled it "paid Western propaganda".

Curriculum change


The report was taken seriously by the government which ordered another review.

Religious parties called the SDPI report 'Western propaganda'

The second review, completed in mid-2004, recommended that references to holy war and the use of force be deleted.

The ministry also recommended that the social studies subject be scrapped.

The recommendations were implemented for the school year starting 2005.

"I don't think anything has changed in substance," co-editor of the SDPI report Ahmed Salim told the BBC news website.

The SDPI is planning to undertake another review which it expects to complete in a month's time.

In Pakistan’s Public Schools, Jihad Still Part of Lesson Plan

By Paul Watson
August 18, 2005 in print edition A-1

Each year, thousands of Pakistani children learn from history books that Jews are tightfisted moneylenders and Christians vengeful conquerors. One textbook tells kids they should be willing to die as martyrs for Islam.

They aren’t being indoctrinated by extremist mullahs in madrasas, the private Islamic seminaries often blamed for stoking militancy in Pakistan. They are pupils in public schools learning from textbooks approved by the administration of President Pervez Musharraf.

Since joining the U.S. as an ally in its “war on terror” four years ago, Musharraf has urged Pakistanis to shun radical Islam and pursue “enlightened moderation.”

Musharraf and U.S. officials say education reforms are crucial to defeating extremism in Pakistan, the only Islamic nation armed with nuclear weapons. Yet reformers who study the country’s education system say public school lessons still promote hatred against non-Muslims and urge jihad, or holy war.

“I have been arguing for the longest time that, in fact, our state system is the biggest madrasa,” said Rubina Saigol, a U.S.-trained expert on education. “We keep blaming madrasas for everything and, of course, they are doing a lot of things I would disagree with.

“But the state ideologies of hate and a violent, negative nationalism are getting out there where madrasas cannot hope to reach.”

The current social studies curriculum guidelines for grades 6 and 7 instruct textbook writers and teachers to “develop aspiration for jihad” and “develop a sense of respect for the struggle of [the] Muslim population for achieving independence.”

In North-West Frontier Province, which is governed by supporters of the ousted Taliban regime in neighboring Afghanistan, the federally approved Islamic studies textbook for eighth grade teaches students they must be prepared “to sacrifice every precious thing, including life, for jihad.”

“At present, jihad is continuing in different parts of the world,” the chapter continues. “Numerous mujahedin [holy warriors] of Islam are involved in defending their religion, and independence, and to help their oppressed brothers across the world.”


The textbook for adolescent students says Muslims are allowed to “take up arms” and wage jihad in self-defense or if they are prevented from practicing their religion.

“When God’s people are forced to become slaves of man-made laws, they are hindered from practicing the religion of their God,” the textbook says. “When all the legal ways in this regard are closed, then power should be used to eliminate the evil.

“If Muslims are being oppressed,” the book says, “then jihad is necessary to free them from this cruel oppression.”

“Jihad” can mean peaceful struggle as well as holy war. Jihad can be waged on several levels, beginning with a peaceful, inner struggle for one’s own soul and escalating to killing “infidels.”

But Pakistani critics of the public school system maintain that jihad’s softer sense is easily lost in lessons that emphasize that Muslims are oppressed in many parts of the world, and that encourage fellow Muslims to fight to free them.

“Some people coming from the regular school system are volunteering for various kinds of jihad, which is not jihad in classical Islamic theory, but actually terrorism in the modern concept,” said Husain Haqqani, a Pakistani author and professor of international relations at Boston University.

“All of that shows that somehow the schooling system has fed intolerance and bigotry.”

About 97% of Pakistan’s people are Muslims, so it’s not unusual for its government to promote Islamic values in public schools. Many Muslims find that versions of history taught in countries dominated by non-Muslims are biased against Islam.

But Pakistan’s public education system goes beyond instilling pride in being Muslim and encourages bigotry that can foment violence against “the other,” said Haqqani, who has written a new book on the links between the Pakistani military and radical Muslims.

Under Pakistan’s federal government, a national curriculum department in Islamabad, the capital, sets criteria for provincial textbook boards, which commission textbooks for local public schools.

Javed Ashraf Qazi, a retired army general and former head of the military’s powerful Inter-Services Intelligence agency, or ISI, was named education minister in September to revive a stalled reform effort. He acknowledges that the job is still only half finished.

In a nation with one of Asia’s highest illiteracy rates, Qazi said he was determined to have specialists rewrite course guidelines and textbooks, from the first grade to the college level, so that “the curriculum will be in line with that of any other advanced country.”

“We don’t want to condemn any religion – which we will not,” he added.

A study of the public school curriculum and textbooks by 29 Pakistani academics in 2002 concluded that public school “textbooks tell lies, create hatred, inculcate militancy and much more.”

The study by the independent Sustainable Development Policy Institute angered religious conservatives, and even a few liberals, who saw it as an attack on the country’s Islamic values, or even a plot by Western governments and rival India to subvert the Islamic state.

Qazi headed the ISI from 1993 to 1995, when the intelligence agency was recruiting students from Pakistan’s madrasas to join the extremist Taliban militia. Under Qazi’s watch, the Taliban won its first major victory, the seizure of the southern Afghan city of Kandahar, with ISI training and weapons.

His critics say that makes Qazi the wrong man to take on hard-line Islamic parties and clerics who are blocking education reforms at every turn. But the education minister insists that he will fight hard to correct a curriculum that he calls lopsided.

It would be easier to end extremism in Pakistan if Western governments did more to resolve conflicts that anger Muslims worldwide, such as the war in Iraq, the dispute with India over the region of Kashmir, or the Palestinians’ struggle against Israel, he said.

Qazi insisted that he was not an extremist, but he offered a short history of the Middle East conflict that left little doubt that he wanted Pakistan’s children to continue learning a distinct view of the world.

“Palestinians were promised their state. Originally they were the owners of the entire area,” Qazi said. “OK, Israel was created by the British. And they indulged in terrorism. The Jews were the worst terrorists in the world.

“They created their state. Fine. Now that everybody has accepted it as a fait accompli, there was also acceptance of a Palestinian state. The Israelis, on one pretext or another, have not granted them that state. And every time something comes up in the Security Council, America vetoes it.”

After it won independence from Britain in 1947, Pakistan had a secular public school system. President Zia ul-Haq, a former military dictator, ordered Islamic education to be incorporated into the public school curriculum in the 1980s as he consolidated power with the support of hard-line clerics.

Pakistan is still grappling with the lethal forces that Zia’s “Islamization” policy unleashed.

Educators pressing for deeper reforms suspect that Musharraf, an army general who seized power in a 1999 coup, wants to maintain elements of Zia’s strategy in order to preserve the military’s dominant role in Pakistani society.

“Reforming education is not a part of Musharraf’s agenda because it will require squarely confronting the mullahs,” said Pervez Hoodbhoy, a professor who specializes in high-energy and nuclear physics.

“Musharraf acts only upon pressure, and there must be relentless, sustained pressure from the outside world if meaningful reforms are ever to become reality,” he said. “Those who believe in secular education are far too weak and small in numbers.”

Punjab state’s seventh-grade social studies textbook, published in January, begins with a full-page message from Musharraf urging students to focus on modern disciplines such as information technology and computers.

“It is a historical fact that the Muslims ruled the world for hundreds of years,” Musharraf writes. He acknowledges that in the past, Pakistan’s school curriculum “was not in concert with the requirements of modern times.” But he assures students that “textbooks have been developed, revised and updated accordingly.”

The changes, if any, are hard to spot. Disparaging references to Christians, Jews and Hindus from previous editions are carried over into the new text.

“Before Islam, people lived in untold misery all over the world,” the textbook says.
“Some Jewish tribes also lived in Arabia. They lent money to workers and peasants on high rates of interest and usurped their earnings. They held the whole society in their tight grip because of the ever increasing compound interest.

“In short, there was no sympathy for humanity,” the passage continues.

“People were selfish and cruel. The rich lived in luxury and nobody bothered about the needy or those in sufferings.”

A section on the Crusades teaches that Europe’s Christian rulers attacked Muslims in the Holy Land out of revenge even though “history has no parallel to the extremely kind treatment of the Christians by the Muslims.”

“Some of the Christian pilgrims to Jerusalem fabricated many false stories of suffering,” the passage continues. “If they were robbed on the way, they said it were the Muslims who robbed them.”

Christians eventually realized they were inferior to Muslims, the chapter concludes.

Combined with lessons on armed jihad, such a view of history helps make young Pakistanis ripe for manipulation by Islamic militants, who have given jihad “a demonic meaning” here, said Saigol, the education expert.

“The word is so much more associated with violence, killing, death and blood,” she said, “that I think it’s difficult to reclaim it, as the modernists are trying to do, and turn it into a war against one’s inner self.”
 
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You sure as well have a valid point. However, knowing the Indians of different regions, for your information the fully covered Burka (the shuttle **** one) is actually inherited by us from Rajistan area and I was surprised that their womenfolk totally cover their face & I take care I am talking about the Hindus.

I would not insist that it is a Arab way of covering the head as normally they are with open face or at least open front.


You are 100% correct. Women in rural Rajesthan, Haryana and western UP cover their faces. But its not mandatory and no one forces this.. Moreover its fading away very fast. I honestly don't know how and when it was interoduced . In fact I have seen older woman even in west covering their faces with some sort of transparent veil.. I am not against Burka if its purely on voluntary basis. Its a personal choice.

RK
 
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Please. You've just been typing that you "hate" brahmins, which is basically nothing but racism.

And no, I don't hate extremists, though I dislike their actions and their ideology.

You've been trying to deny the whole while that Pakistani textbooks paint hindus as dishonest villians, while there are numerous news articles directly quoting sentences from Pakistani textbooks that prove the point. Its really strange.

Flintlock try and understand.When did I write that I hate Brahmins? Kindly provide link (Mods style:D)
Are all Brahmins alike? NO.I just wrote that I hate the disgusting practices in the name of religion.Now Don't get me repeat it all over 'gain.
 
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For now, I would only say that I am nowhere disregarding the opinion polls and I agree with them as good objective data, perhaps the most weighty evidence presented on this thread.

All I am saying is that I am not ready to disregard all the other sources that help build my perceptions. I don't think that is unfair at all.

Ok, but I must point out that all these 'other sources' that affect your perceptions also have their equivalents amongst Indians - so on that count the sentiment on both sides is almost identical.
 
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Ok, but I must point out that all these 'other sources' that affect your perceptions also have their equivalents amongst Indians - so on that count the sentiment on both sides is almost identical.

Yes. But without the benefit of the textbooks. ;)

I tend to agree with X-Man's assessment though. The textbooks are only adding fuel to an already raging fire. They only act as fertilizer on a fertile ground.
 
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Yes. But without the benefit of the textbooks. ;)

I tend to agree with X-Man's assessment though. The textbooks are only adding fuel to an already raging fire. They only act as fertilizer on a fertile ground.

The text books do not seem to have any significant impact, that is borne out of the evidence presented, and is therefore a bogey.

If the textbooks had any impact as you say, the the poll results woudl reflect stark differences between the attitudes of Indians and Pakistanis on the issues mentioned.

Let me try and convey it as an equation:

India: A+B+C = Attitude X

Pakistan : A+B+C+D(textbooks) = Attitude X

This implies: A+B+C = A+B+C+D(textbooks)

Which implies that, given A=A, B=B, C=C, the relationship above is true only if D(textbooks) is negligible.
 
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Perhaps India has another "D" of it's own to add to the equation.

Some that I can think of (exclusive to India or not having the same impact in Pakistan):

  • Partition (perceived as division of the sacred motherland in India) on religious grounds
  • The frequent terror attacks that most believe are Pakistan supported and the long running terror campaign in Kashmir
  • The open support for the likes of LET, JEM etc.
  • The linkage of Pakistan with the long Islamic history in India, the perception that gets created by your missile names etc.
  • The communal riots (which are much less frequent now)

I could add some more but I guess you get the drift.

They would do an effective job of filling in for the text books.

So I will disagree that "D" is negligible. Just that India has it's own potent "D".
 
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The text books do not seem to have any significant impact, that is borne out of the evidence presented, and is therefore a bogey.

If the textbooks had any impact as you say, the the poll results woudl reflect stark differences between the attitudes of Indians and Pakistanis on the issues mentioned.

Let me try and convey it as an equation:

India: A+B+C = Attitude X

Pakistan : A+B+C+D(textbooks) = Attitude X

This implies: A+B+C = A+B+C+D(textbooks)

Which implies that, given A=A, B=B, C=C, the relationship above is true only if D(textbooks) is negligible.

Oh my god Agno, don't embarrass yourself.:lol:

Or maybe you are right - but that would indicate the weakness/absence of the Pakistani education system. The hateful nature of the textbooks remains.
 
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