Discussion: will Egypt replace its old T-55 and T-62 with the T-90MS

[Frogman]

What is this extra responsible and fatigue? The 4th tanker is replaced by an auto loader. This isn't the 1960s, modern tank have sensors and cameras that provide much better situational awareness then a loader.

Beyond operating the tank itself. Crews are also supposed to maintain, supply, and guard the tank. Rather than four sharing these responsibilities it is now three which leads to a more work per person and less rest.

Why would replacing loader require an entire platoon? What you're saying is lunacy. Much of the tanks around the world, be it French, Chinese, Japanese, Russian use auto loaders because it is more cost effective.

Which is fine for them because they're set up to accommodate that. Egyptian Armoured formations are not. You can plan around it but why change something that isn't broke for Egypt specifically.

Recovery vehicles do nothing more then tow away tanks, if a recovery vehicle can tow an Abrams, then it can certainly tow a T-90.

But a recovery vehicle also has its own logistical footprint and while it will recover anything a recovery vehicle based on an Abrams will have many of the same parts, follow the same procedures, and logistic needs including fuel as the M1. A M88 Hercules in a T-90 unit will have more separate requirements to support.

Yes it would require some different things but you're over dramatic, large air forces around the world operate dozens of different aircraft efficiently and effectively. Having two different tanks is nothing unusual, many countries operate 2 or 3 different types of tanks. It's not the end of the world.

Operating several tank or aircraft types isn't the problem. It's operating platforms that are completely alien to each other that have nothing in common whatsoever and can not be networked

Egypt is not a particularly large nation and one short on funding. It makes sense for the US or Russia or the Chinese or the Indians but Egypt's military budget is a small fraction of these and so going for the cheapest option which we already operate on a large scale and is also superior to the alternative makes sense.

T-90 carries 40 conventional rounds, I believe. The 22 count is the automatic loader capacity, but it does carry 2 less than the Abrams in total.

My mistake. It would also carry less if there was ATGMs on board.

I would think those two reasons are justifiable for acquiring tanks with APS, but it needn't be 500 T-90's, that's for sure.

That was my point. AP systems are not going to be rolled out across entire fleets anywhere any time soon (even the T-90MS doesn't have it) but if there's a need to get the foot in the door then take it but realise that the procurement of a large number of MBTs is a poor way of going about it.

I'm also sketpical of the need to go Russian and MBT for this choice when an IFV with a big gun and soft/hard kill solutions are currently mounting in Europe.

So it is baffling and it makes me think maybe they either have an integration plan or are just reverting to the old school methods.

Are you really that surprised? this is old skool af!

 

[Gomig-21]

That was my point. AP systems are not going to be rolled out across entire fleets anywhere any time soon (even the T-90MS doesn't have it) but if there's a need to get the foot in the door then take it but realise that the procurement of a large number of MBTs is a poor way of going about it.

They can field 2 completely separate armies.

 

[Ceylal]

I personally view the T-90 MS as another ugly b!ich with tons of make up to make it look more apealing to costumers, eastern armour still hasn't caught up to its westren counterpart's level of quality and as an ex-tanker i'd sugget to the one that is the head of military procurment of the Egyptian armour corps to take a look at the latest version of the Abrams tank - the SEP. V3 by GD the only tank that could probably match my own Merkava MK. 4.

Why not gave them some Merkavas, Sissi has been a good shoe shiner of Israel...
It doesn't matter which tank you give to Sissi, he will manage to loose all the war..it is written on his forehead.

 

[Hell NO]

I think we should wait for the T-14 ten years is nothing....
What we should do with our t55 and t62

Is get some help in transforming them into something like the Russian terminator

 

[Gomig-21]

A lot more points to consider than just these 5, but still, an interesting comparison.

 

[Ceylal]

A lot more points to consider than just these 5, but still, an interesting comparison.

Amazing how Russian armement went from junk to a marvel piece of engineering for the Msarwas, when they start rearming with Russia...

 

[Gomig-21]

Amazing how Russian armement went from junk to a marvel piece of engineering for the Msarwas, when they start rearming with Russia...

I don't think we thought Russian arms were junk. We just thought they were done with the mix & mash of weapons after they bought the Rafale to go with the 4th largest fleet of F-16's. Now we have 50 MiG-35's coming which are completely different than the former 2. So the T-90MS is right along the same lines of thought where it really doesn't make much sense. But I think western restrictions are causing these political decisions.

 

[Frogman]

They can field 2 completely separate armies.

*Groans*

I don't think we thought Russian arms were junk. We just thought they were done with the mix & mash of weapons after they bought the Rafale to go with the 4th largest fleet of F-16's. Now we have 50 MiG-35's coming which are completely different than the former 2. So the T-90MS is right along the same lines of thought where it really doesn't make much sense. But I think western restrictions are causing these political decisions.

We're going to end up in a situation where again it is equipment that shapes doctrine and organisation rather than the opposite. I also still refuse the Western restrictions line as an excuse

 

[Ceylal]

*Groans*



We're going to end up in a situation where again it is equipment that shapes doctrine and organisation rather than the opposite. I also still refuse the Western restrictions line as an excuse

I think Egypt will be facing a logistical nightmare in a case of war...with so many makes under one roof..

 

[Gomig-21]

We're going to end up in a situation where again it is equipment that shapes doctrine and organisation rather than the opposite

When you asked me if I was surprised, TBH, yes. I figured that they knew the shift from Soviet to US weapons left them with that diverse combination, and that it was more or less by default and the result of the circumstances. So they had to make the best of it and use the diversity and learn from it for these past 30 years. Suddenly the first new aircraft they go out and get is the vaunted Rafale! Yaaay! Easy to think they're on the right track. The delapitating Soviet Romeos are getting replaced by state of the art T-209 German subs, the "mostly made up of" American fleet of destroyers and cruisers are getting friends in the Ambassador MK-III, French Corvettes and FREMMs, all nice and staying with western tech hey, they must be on to something! The 2 Mistrals seemed to be a sweetener added to the pie to appease the French and the Russians so the former sweetened the deal on the Rafales and I figured ok, the Russians will assist with the S-300s and the terrific Protvnik-GE radar, maybe more TOR/BUKs as well as adding the Ka-52K.....Katran! To equip the mistral and that's ok, it's not a huge leap in the other direction and naval assets can be assimilated to work under one network a bit easier than air assets, so we're ok with that but then BANG!!! They're Alligators not Katrans WTH?! That's when I started seeing trouble. So the Alligators really can't work effectively with the Apaches, right? So there's a disturbing separation of armies, but we can deal with it since they'll get the Katran for the Mistrals eventually (as you eloquently informed me... ) and so the Alligators can work with the Katrans on beachhead operations and naval vs land operations so I'm still ok with that. Then the big whopper........MiG-35! That was it...lol. Now this possibility, 400 to 500 T-90MS?

The timing of the purchases is a little off, since the MiG-35 was announced more or less around the same time as the Ka-52, so the shock was a bit earlier, but that was the trigger for me anyway.

I also still refuse the Western restrictions line as an excuse

Well, why would they go out and buy the Rafale? If it didn't come with the MICA IR & ER, they most likely wouldn't have done it. The Viper upgrade will NEVER be done to the F-16 fleet, at least not in its weapons suite to fire the AIM-120. IMO, this is what has led to the Rafale and then to the MiG because of the cost and the BVR capability the two bring. The MiG-35 seems to be a product of the huge cost of the Rafale, making it easier to replace the old hardware with a decent and cost effective option in greater numbers. Western weapons and cost burdens seem to be driving this shift. I refuse to believe it's just old school thinking! I sure as heck hope that's not the case.

 

[The SC]

In the 2016 report of Oral Vagon
Russian Zavod, which was published two days in which he said the following:

First: the company is working to deliver Iraq
The first batch of the 73 tank T-90S / SK.

Second: The company is working to deliver Vietnam first
Batch of the 64-tank T-90S / SK.

Third: The company is working to complete its agreement with Kuwait
For delivery 146 tanks T-90MS / MSK and still only signature.

Fourth: The company is working on the establishment of a facility for the repair and maintenance of tanks T-90S / SK in Algeria and also after the signing of Kuwait, where the company plans to establish a facility to repair and maintain tanks T-90MS / MSK in Kuwait.

Fifth: The company is working on the establishment of a facility to assemble T-90S / SK tanks in Egypt, it is said that the numbers of Russian tanks are between 400 - 500 tanks, but now they are not T-90MS / MSK, as some pages and sites say.

So let's say that the one coming to Egypt is a copy that combines MS and S with Egyptian specifications. meaning the one coming is the version S with local manufacturing and it will be is a tank manufacturer in the Middle East and Africa..The exports will come from this plant..

- In general the T-90MS / MSK operates with an 1130 engine Horsepower, T-90S / SK is powered by 1000 hp.

- The T-90MS / MSK carries Rilkt armor which is twice stronger than Kontakt 5 armor carried by T-90S / SK.

- The T-90MS / MSK is better armored on the sides than the T-90S / SK.

- The T-90MS / MSK carries a kalina digital fire control system.

- The T-90MS / MSK and the T-90S / SK have the LWR with grenade launchers and both have the capability to install active defense systems such as Shtora for soft kill or hard kill Arena 3, the price tag of a shtora system $ 100 ~ $ 150 thousand, Arena 3 price $ 350 thousand..

- In the T-90MS / MSK, the monitoring and targeting system 1G46, containing the French thermal channel Cathren FC, was replaced by the latest Sosna U, which has a longer range, especially in thermal imaging.

- In the T-90MS / MSK ammunition is stored in an isolated compartment behind the tower.

- In the T-90MS / MSK, the RWS has a remote control with a 360-degree Multi-vision Sight, which means that the leader has a comand and control screen. While in the T-90S / SK, the TKN-4S system has power control for the machine gun.

- In the T-90S / SK the commander owns an independent display of the thermocamera Cathren.

- The T-90MS / MSK is equipped with inirtial navigation systems INS along with Glonas, generally all T-90MS / MSK tanks operate under the concept of central network war NCW.

- The K version is the command version that has a separate satellite communication computer and a leading radio station.


So after all these options it is quite hard to know what the Egyptian version will look like specs-wise..

 

[Frogman]

So after all these options it is quite hard to know what the Egyptian version will look like specs-wise..

It will look like a less capable version of what the Russians showed everyone at Expos and even more less capable than the Egyptian M1 Abrams.

 

[The SC]

It will look like a less capable version of what the Russians showed everyone at Expos and even more less capable than the Egyptian M1 Abrams.

It will be close to the MS in specs.. if not better!

This is just a drop in a bucket brother:

Actually, Arab security is an integral part ..

Egypt has a population of ~100 million ..

And is the Arab nation with 6 Nobel prizes ..

A nation from which came out some of the most famous surgeons, doctors and engineers in the world ..

Which is the beacon of the Arab and Islamic world in art and culture ..

It has the largest moderate Islamic institution in the world ..

The strongest Arab, African and Middle Eastern military ..

And an existing state of 7000 years ..

Some of the fools come to you like some Sheep shepherds .... and start diminishing Egyptian abilities.. beware of their thoughts and what is behind them..

 

[Ceylal]

It will look like a less capable version of what the Russians showed everyone at Expos and even more less capable than the Egyptian M1 Abrams.

At least, you live in "reality"