Troll is your class stick to it and you are doing a great job defining it.
you are a shameless creature with no sense and an awesome troller
you simply claim all the contents of each neutral sites like....
The Tilt: The U.S. and the South Asian Crisis of 1971
Index of /site/cimh/iaf
/IAF_1971_kills_rev1.pdf
www.orbat.com/site/cimh/iaf/IAF_1971_kills.pdf
Indo-Pakistan War of Independence
as useless....you are nothing but a stupid useless creature
Military Aviation Photographs | About Peter
the above link provides you a knowledge about the famous Peter Steinemann. who commented about Flicker....
"John Fricker - an aviation journalist and an old & trustworthy friend of the PAF. He was appointed by the PAF to write their version of what happened in the skies in 1965 and he wrote what they had expected - a flattering account of the air war, in which the PAF won flaps down."
Moreover if flicker was so good that he wrote in Air enthusiast,,then Pushpinder Singh must have been neutral so as to write the next years edition of the quarterly as editor/investigative reporter...
source<pdfdei.in
ushpinder singh and Peter Steinemann
akistan Fiza'ya: Psyche of the Pakistan Air Force>
According to Pushpinder Singh Chopra, Ravi Rikhye and Peter Steinemann in their book, Pakistan Fiza'ya: Psyche of the Pakistan Air Force
so how he demolishes your claim of 30secs over sargotha....
When Alam first went up, he encountered 2 Hunters. He specifically says he could not use his guns and so fired his Sidewinders. The first missed; the second he did not actually see striking, but on overshooting the victim saw a Hunter without canopy and pilot, and a pilot later identified as Kacker coming down by parachute. Kacker ejected near the border, which was 100km east of the main battle area, itself 50km east of Sargodha. So there is simply no manner in which Alam could have seen Kacker coming down. The first clash and its results are the product of Alam's imagination.
Insofar as the two Hunters Alam first encountered were part of the five-plane third strike with whom Kacker was flying, Alam could have fired a missile at Kacker. But he did not strike him down, or anyone else on that first encounter. There is always the possibility that someone, say ground fire knicked Kacker causing him to eject many minutes later under the impression he had suffered a pure mechanical failure. Pilots usually have little idea of the damage they suffered and the hits they took till they return to base. Whatever maybe the reason, Kacker lost his Hunter, Alam had no part in it.
S/L Alam himself was not sure whether he shot down S/L Kacker, because the first Sidewinder he had fired missed the Hunter, while the second Sidewinder he fired did not see it strike. As Pushpinder Singh Chopra says, "The first clash and its results are a product of Alam's imagination." After ejecting over Pakistan, S/L Kacker was subsequently captured and returned to India after the war. The four IAF pilots who flew with S/L Kacker also stated that he had ejected, due to a mechanical failure in his Hunter. In his book, My Years with the IAF, Air Chief Marshal (retd.) P.C. Lal interviewed these IAF pilots, who said:
"Homeward bound, Rathore fought a defensive battle. Suddenly he noticed Kacker in front losing speed. Jog reduced speed for the formation to stay together. But Kacker had a fuel problem. His Bingo Lights, the fuel warning lights, came on and finally the engine flamed out. He had to eject."
Though the cause of S/L Kacker's ejection may disputed, his wingmen testify to the absence of Sabres or Starfighters when he ejected.
S/L Devayya was one of the other pilots supposedly shot down by S/L Alam. However S/L Devayya was from Strike No.1 and flew a Mystere. The PAF again later corrected itself in saying that S/L Devayya was shot down by F/L Amjad Hussein, a F-104 pilot, just after the first strike had occurred. The claim of F/L Hussein itself is quite confusing as illustrated by the his report that he encountered a formation of two Mysteres, shot down one of them with cannon, shot down another but flew into the debris of the destroyed aircraft and had to eject.
To add to the confusion , Fricker has a different version to give. He said that F/L Hussein shot down one Mystere and was downed by another Mystere in air combat. Accordingly the PAF scaled down the claim to one Mystere downed by AA fire and another lost to the Starfighter. Fricker makes the claim of two Mysteres shot down again, and throws up more names to justify the claim. His account, after explaining how one Mystere was downed by AA fire and another shot down by F/L Hussein, goes on to say:
"...The PAF later obtained the personal details of at least three IAF Mystere pilots who were killed in air combat over Pakistan on 7 September. From their ranks – two were Squadron Leaders (Jasbeer Singh and A.B. Devayya) and one a Flight Lieutenant (B Guha) – all were evidently officers of considerable experience….even if they had been junior personnel, a 50% mission loss rate could not be long endured by the IAF, or any other airforce for that matter."
Either Fricker was trying to mislead the reader, or he was misled by the PAF himself. Fricker mentions S/L Jasbeer Singh, who was lost in an entirely unrelated raid on Rahwali, and F/L Guha, who was shot down later in the day to imply that the IAF lost more than 50% of the aircraft from the first raid over Sargodha. The composition of the pilots of the first raid was well discussed in the previous chapters with S/L Jasbeer Singh not belonging to any unit remotely associated with the Sargodha raids.
F/L Guha, piloted a Mystere and was from Strike No.6. He was shot down by F/L A.H. Malik who flew a F-86. The PAF later corrected its claim and now states that F/L Guha was indeed shot down by F/L Malik and not by S/L Alam.
The last two pilots - S/L Bhagwat and F/O Brar - were from Strike No.4. They acted as Hunter escorts, for the three-ship Hunter formation they were accompanying. The strike was led by W/C Zachariah with S/L Lamba and S/L Sinha. Strike No.4 was at 0605 hrs, the same time S/L Alam was flying CAP over Sargodha. However Sargodha's defences were alerted from the previous strike and the Hunters from Strike No.4, laden with bombs and rockets, were sitting ducks for the PAF interceptors. Pushpinder Singh Chopra gives a more clearer picture of what happened to the second Hunter formation. The following is from his article in Vayu Aerospace Review, titled 'Laying the Sargodha Ghost to Rest':
Meanwhile, the second formation of Hunters, led by Wg. Cdr. Toric Zachariah, C.O. No.7 Squadron and comprising Sqn. Ldr. S.B. Bhagwat and Flg. Officer J.S. Brar as escorts, were heading towards Sargodha when they crossed the six Sabres, with two F-104s over-head, following the returning Hunters. According to strict operational instructions, which were to avoid air combat when weighed down by extra fuel tanks and rockets, the Hunters turned hard port to climb towards the Sabres which were some 3000 feet higher. Stores were jettisoned as the Sabres, diverted from the Hunters of No.27 Squadron, turned into the No.7 Squadron formation.
With the element of surprise lost and the PAF operating Sidewinder-equipped Sabres and F-104s ranged against them, the formation leader instructed the Hunters to return to base. The aircraft exited individually at low level but the escort section consisting of Bhagwat and Brar got into a scrap and was overwhelmed by superior numbers and Sidewinders and from which they did not return. The remaining three Hunters; flown by Zachariah, Lamba and Sinha saw a number of other patrolling Sabres, particularly in the vicinity of Chak Jhumra airfield, but returned safely to Halwara.
It is not known as to which PAF pilot actually shot down S/L Bhagwat and F/O Brar, but in the face of evidence S/L Alam is given the credit, since he was flying CAP over Sargodha at that time and he reached the area first . The latter was stated by Fricker himself in his book, Battle for Pakistan. Also no other PAF Sabre pilot claimed to have encountered air combat with Hunters that morning.
S/L Alam's eyewitnesses have proved to be quite damaging, rather than helpful. Their version of the events, from how they saw it, were different from S/L Alam's version. Take the example of W/C (retd.) M. Arif Iqbal - a F-104 pilot - who was providing CAP (Combat Air Patrol) on September 7th. In an article titled, "Eye-witness to M.M. Alam's encounter with the IAF" he states:
"Like me, Alam had also spotted only four Hunters. He decided to engage the one on the extreme right first. It was then that he spotted a fifth Hunter further to the right. He changed his mind and switched his attack to this new find. Barely a couple of seconds must have lapsed before Alam six guns were spitting fire and fury at this Hunter and I saw a ball of fire hit the ground. Alam pulled his guns on to the next Hunter. A few seconds later, another ball of fire hit the ground. Then the Indians tried a half-hearted defensive manoeuvre. Alam was almost overshooting an enemy aircraft but by then he had destroyed it - a third ball of fire and the pilot of this Hunter managed to eject from his aircraft before it crashed. Alam was once again in a better position to tackle the two remaining Hunters. It was only a matter of moments before these two also turned into balls of fire and crashed into the ground."
S/L Alam clearly states that he saw four Hunters attacking the airfield and another two 1000 feet to his rear. He then claims that he forgot about the other four and engaged the pair behind him. However Iqbal states that S/L Alam spotted only a fifth Hunter in addition to the earlier four. Or did Iqbal mistake two Hunters for one? In fact, Iqbal goes a step further and states the fifth Hunter S/L Alam spotted was to the right of the four-ship Hunter formation. Quite a contrast to S/L Alam's claim of seeing two Hunters a 1000 ft. to his rear!
S/L Alam also states that he used GAR-8 Sidewinders instead of his guns, when he attacked the two aircraft. According to Iqbal however, S/L Alam used only his guns and does not mention Alam using his Sidewinders. If Iqbal is referring to the second encounter, again discrepancies arise from his story. S/L Alam claims to have seen five IAF Hunters in immaculate battle formation and once he entered gunfire range, the IAF Hunters called a break. Iqbal however states that only after two Hunters were destroyed, did the remaining Hunters in the formation call the break. Obviously both versions are contradictory to each other, because it is very easy to determine three aircraft from five - especially when they are in the air.
The third Hunter in the formation, according to Iqbal, also became a victim of S/L Alam's guns but the pilot managed to eject before the aircraft crashed. S/L Alam states exactly the opposite of Iqbal and says, "None of these four pilots ejected, and all of them were killed." S/L Alam had in fact claimed the pilot who ejected as his first kill. Iqbal concludes the air battle by saying that S/L Alam destroyed the remaining two Hunters in the formation, thus bringing his total kill rate in that sortie to five aircraft. S/L Alam also concurs with that figure. It appears that that is the only thing S/L Alam and Iqbal agree on, because everything else in Iqbal's story is remarkably different from S/L Alam's version. Iqbal proudly claims to have been an eyewitness to the S/L Alam encounter. The impression left is that of a deliberate attempt by Iqbal to support S/L Alam's tally.
There are a few contradicting claims originating from Battle for Pakistan - a book which praised the PAF's role in 1965 and put S/L Alam on a pedestal - in which Fricker states the following:
Many pilots have scored several air victories in one sortie, and have equalled or exceeded Alam's claims of shooting down up to five enemy aircraft of superior performance within a few minutes. But few are likely to be able to match his record of destroying at least 3 opponents - Hawker Hunters of the Indian Air Force - within the space of somewhere around 30 seconds. Admittedly, confirmation of Alam's claims has been difficult to obtain, despite close-range observation of his encounter by several PAF pilots, and some gun camera evidence. Nearest of these observers was his wingman, Fg. Off. Masood Akhtar, who, protecting his leader's tail, clung like a leech throughout the action.
Another section of PAF Sabres, led by Flt. Lt. Bhatti, was attempting to engage the Hunters but Alam (at that time a Squadron Leader) got there first. Flying top cover in an F-104A Starfighter was Sqn. Ldr. Arif Iqbal who, with intense frustration, watched the brief combat with admiration. On this basis, Alam was originally credited with five IAF Hunters destroyed, although the wreckage of only two could be found in Pakistani territory, within 2 or 3 miles of Sangla Hill railway station. The bodies of the pilots - one Hindu and one Sikh - was burnt beyond recognition. The area of the main engagement, however, some 30 miles east of Sargodha airfield, was only about 55nm inside the Pakistani border - some seven or eight minutes at jet speed.
What is unusual about Fricker's story is that he states "at least three Hunters in 30 seconds" when S/L Alam clearly stated in his account above, which is also from the same book, that he shot down four Hunters in that same time period. This clearly illustrates the fact that even Fricker found the PAF's claims difficult to digest. Fricker also believes that evidence for Alam's claim was "difficult to obtain", even when eye witnesses and gun camera evidence were present. However the disparity in the story of M. Arif Iqbal and S/L Alam is very difficult to explain.
Arriving at the gun camera evidence, which is displayed every September 7th in Pakistan to commemorate PAF Day, it appears that a crucial factor is overlooked. Did the gun camera pictures come from that particular battle? There is enough evidence to suggest that all is not what it seems to be. As Pushpindar Singh Chopra in his Vayu Aerospace Review article, 'Laying the Sargodha Ghost to Rest' says:
Amongst earlier examples of clumsy propaganda was a photograph purporting to depict an Indian Hunter on fire but later identified as cut from a training film showing a Pakistani Sabre firing rockets against practice ground targets.
This indicates, that the gun camera evidence must have been most likely tampered with, to prove that S/L Alam had indeed shot down five Hunters! After all, gun camera evidence along with the names, would have sealed any doubts about the validity of S/L Alam's claim. The PAF indeed go to great lengths to back their claims! Moreover, the legitimacy of gun camera shots becomes questionable when it is considered that it depends on the word of the claimant that the evidence was from that particular circumstance. There is no way to check the date, time or particulars of where those particular pictures were taken. One of the camera gunshots of a Hunter was captured at an almost impossible angle, something only achieved if the Sabre was flying sideways and downwards. Gun camera pictures become important in the absence of any other form of evidence, like wrecks and/or captured aircrew. As these kills were near Sargodha, the PAF should not have had any problem in producing evidence in terms of wreckage/pilots. But Pakistan had problems providing evidence in terms of wreckage and pilots recovered too.
Fricker also states "...only two could be found in Pakistani territory..." and if S/L Alam shot down five Hunters, then why is it that only two wreckages were found? Fricker said that the engagement took place "...only 55nm inside the Pakistani border..." and by that he suggested that the other aircraft might have crashed in Indian territory. However this is contradicted by S/L Alam's version: "These aircraft virtually blew up in front of me. None of these four pilots ejected, and all of them were killed." This meant that all aircraft either blew up or crashed in front of his eyes and therefore in Pakistani territory, for nowhere did Alam claim that the battle took him into India. How and when this version transformed into a story about the Hunters crashing in Indian territory is not known.
BA330.jpg (29639 bytes) This wreck of a Hunter that was shot down in Pakistan shows the serial number of the aircraft as BA-330. The pilot is not known.
It should be mentioned that S/L Alam's story was first narrated to Fricker during 1967, and Fricker bought out an article on this 'Ace in a Day' in the Air Enthusiast magazine. The initial article did not have the names of the Indian pilots claimed shot down by S/L Alam. When Pushpindar Singh, a noted Indian aviation historian sent a letter to the magazine disputing S/L Alam's claim, Fricker issued a rejoinder that amounted to shooting himself in the foot. Fricker stated that he had interviewed, separately and independently, three PAF pilots who witnessed the event in addition to Alam and their stories coincided almost precisely. Later, Fricker gave the names of five Indian pilots provided by the Pakistani sources that he claimed were victims of S/L Alam. The names given were S/L Kacker, S/L Devayya, S/L Bhagwat, F/L Guha and F/O Brar. Fricker's sarcastic taunts were that the Indian government would disown their own personnel in order to prove him wrong! When the obvious was pointed out regarding the timings of the raids and the types flown by individual pilots, Fricker was chastised. Seven years later when Battle for Pakistan was published, a slightly reformed Fricker dispelled claims of S/L Devayya and F/L Guha being Hunter pilots, admitted that S/L Kacker was lost to engine failure and that only S/L Bhagwat and F/O Brar were possible victims of S/L Alam.
Fricker tries to build some ground behind the claim of S/L Alam’s Hunter by referring to the IAF's list of casualties. Fricker states that the PAF has record of at least five IAF Hunter pilots who were killed on unspecified dates and circumstances. This was collated at the end of the war when the IAF released a list of officers killed in operations. The list contained the names of only those pilots who were killed over Indian territory. The IAF did not give any details on the dates and circumstances of how some of these officers were killed or from which unit they belonged to. The PAF identified certain names as those of Hunter pilots. The names of S/L A.K. Rawlley, F/O F.D. Bunsha, F/L T.K. Chaudhari and F/O G.S. Ahuja stood out prominently as they were known to be Hunter pilots. Though Fricker does not state this explicitly, he implies that among these five names are names of S/L Alam's victims as well as other victims of the air combat over Halwara in which the PAF claimed five Hunters shot down and destroyed. Fricker would hardly know, nor did many Indians for that matter, the circumstances of the deaths of the above pilots. Only in the 1990s did details of how some of the pilots who were killed emerged. None of them could be attributed to the kills of S/L Alam, either over Halwara (India) or over Sargodha (Pakistan).
Being carried away with extravagant claims does not stop with PAF pilots. It was extended through out the day, especially to the gunners of Sargodha who had a part in downing four aircraft, all Mysteres. Curiously the PAF, which was so enthusiastic in putting forward the five names of the pilots, is nowhere in the picture when questioned as to who the pilots were of the Mysteres claimed by F/L Hussain and F/L Malik, or by the gunners of Sargodha. A similar response is encountered with the Pakistani failure to show evidence in terms of wreckage of the six Mysteres supposed to have been shot down, where only evidence for two exists. However, even if the PAF got three of the five names wrong, then the pilots who participated in Strike No.4 - W/C Zachariah, F/L Lamba and F/L Sinha - should have all been dead, since S/L Alam himself stated none of the four pilots had ejected and they were all killed. However, F/L Lamba and F/L Sinha later became Air Marshals of the IAF and Zachariah is settled in the United Kingdom. Surely the IAF does not promote deceased personnel and neither does a person settle in the United Kingdom or any other foreign nation after he is dead! It is thus impossible that S/L Alam could have shot them down either. Then which were the five Hunter pilots, S/L Alam had shot? Or how many did he really shoot?
and then the mythical wars they fought in 4000-10000 BC! 
