DIMDEX-2018. My Visit and Highlights of from There

[Rashid Mahmood]

1st 90B mod will be completed by 2020.
Contract for 2nd 90B has been signed, which will be completed in 2021.
Contract for 3rd will be signed soon.

Ada is a corvette and does not require VLS as per its role.
The new FFGs coming from China will carry a VLS.

 

[Bratva]

One of the worst visits of my Life to a Pakistani ship. Got turned down twice to board the ship because there was a vip delegation aboard due to which they wont allow civilians. The british, American, Indian ship i visited had concurrent vip/civilian visits. When i was finally allowed on ship, i got to see the rotten mentality @Oscar so much talk about prevalent in our defence establishment. I'll share the positive news first

* PNS HIMMAT all 6 launchers have harba missile written on them
* Harba was tested upto 350 Km. Official range is 300. Officer showed me a photo of harba hitting bullseys on the target.

Rest of the conversation Happened this way

*as per officer there is a area of interest, and area of concern. So dont ask me questions which are not related to me as my area of concern is this ship only. I was asking him about previous azmat class ships missile tube upgradation

* as per the officer azmat class 1 and 2 not gonna be upgraded with new missile launchers neither F22p will be upgraded

* when i pressed him why, he said why should we ? We are gonna use multiple systems. When i raised the issue why such a mentality exist. He shrugged say. Not my area of interest to know

*I asked accompyning officer is harba subsonic or supersonic. He said he doesnt know despite him being on board during the test launch

*the overall mentality was, they are good at their job, have zero knowledge to properly understand the threats evolving around them. Will shut you up with this logic that this is secret. We wont tell because world eyes are upon us. I told both officerd, indians, britishers americans were more forthcoming hospitable and knowledgeable than you two were. They shrugged there shoulders again

*Brahmos is not so much of a threat. I laughed and said how you gonna intercept a supersonic missile with Pakistani ships ? Then i had to tell him what supersonic means. And he said we are quite capable we will protect pakistani shore

* The mantra throughout the tour was, Pakistan navy is quite capable to protect against all threats. When asked what happens India increases range to 700 Km. They avoided answering

*Then i was ushered hurriedly out when someone shouted from outside, "Farigh karaao unno JALDI". As another VIP delegation was coming

*Commander of the ship met with me by chance with a typical bureaucratic attitude and then walked away from there

The crux of the entire 3 day visit turks were the best professionally if they were like pakistanis they would have shut me up on each question

Part of me died after reading I Class isnt coming.


Why go for ATMCA when we have Harbah & more?

View attachment 459023

According to ab old report on MILGEMs... PN will equip it with local weapons n subsystems... reducing costs by 50 million per vessel.

So much for your questions. I was met with a suspicious behaviour by PN that how so much i know and why am i asking this questions

Bro it is better to ask turks than our own pakistanisu

 

[Dazzler]

One of the worst visits of my Life to a Pakistani ship. Got turned down twice to board the ship because there was a vip delegation aboard due to which they wont allow civilians. The british, American, Indian ship i visited had concurrent vip/civilian visits. When i was finally allowed on ship, i got to see the rotten mentality @Oscar so much talk about prevalent in our defence establishment. I'll share the positive news first

* PNS HIMMAT all 6 launchers have harba missile written on them
* Harba was tested against upto 350 Km. Official range is 300. Officer showed me a photo of harba hitting bulls eys at the target.

Rest of the conversation Happened this way

*as per officer there is a area of interest, and area of concern. So dont ask me questions which are not related to me as my area of concern is this ship only. I was asking him about previous azmat class ships missile tube upgradation

* as per the officer azmat class 1 and 2 not gonna be upgraded with new missile launchers neither F22p will be upgraded

* when i pressed him why, he said why should we ? We are gonna use multiple systems. When i raised the issue why such a mentality exist. He shurgged say. Not my area of interest to know

*I asked accompyning officer is harba subsonic or supersonic. He said he doesnt know despite him being on board during the test launch

*the overall mentality was, they are good at their job, have zero knowledge to properly understand the threats evolving around them. Will shut you up with this logic that this is secret. We wont tell because world eyes are upon us. I told both officerd, indians, britishers americans were more forthcoming hospitable and knowledgeable than you two were. They shrugged there shoulders again

*Brahmos is not so much of a question. I laughed and said how you gonna intercept a supersonic missile with Pakistani ships ? Then i had to tell him what supersonic means. And he said we are quite capable we will protect pakistani shore

* The mantra throughout the tour was, Pakistan navy is quite capable to protect against all threats. When asked what happens India increases range to 700 Km. They avoided answering

*Then i was ushered hurriedly out when someone shouted from outside, "Farigh karaao unno JALDI". As another VIP delegation was coming

*Commander of the ship met with me by chance with a typical bureaucratic attitude and then walked away from there

The crux of the entire 3 day visit turks were the best professionally if they were like pakistanis they would have shut me up on each question




So much for your questions. I was met with a suspicious behaviour by PN that how so much i know and why am i asking this questions

Bro it is better to ask turks than our own pakistanisu

This behaviour prevails mostly among these navy chaps for some reason. You are lucky to have boarded the ship at least, i was not even allowed that despite i mentioned the background.

I think the navy is in for a rude awakening though i pray may that day never come. They are naive either by design or due to higher ups but this behaviour is not acceptable. They need to show some courtesy at least.

Out of all three services, i found the airforce chaps to be more forthcoming as far as i know.

 

[Sine Nomine]

So much for your questions. I was met with a suspicious behaviour by PN that how so much i know and why am i asking this questions

Being Civilian Never tell anything to Pakistan Defence Establishment guys,they would get suspicious about you in no time.

*the overall mentality was, they are good at their job, have zero knowledge to properly understand the threats evolving around them. Will shut you up with this logic that this is secret. We wont tell because world eyes are upon us. I told both officerd, indians, britishers americans were more forthcoming hospitable and knowledgeable than

Threat Perception and prepareation according to it is not Part of Pakistani Defence Establishment.
Our ships are defenceless against P-800 and Sukhois.

 

[SQ8]

One of the worst visits of my Life to a Pakistani ship. Got turned down twice to board the ship because there was a vip delegation aboard due to which they wont allow civilians. The british, American, Indian ship i visited had concurrent vip/civilian visits. When i was finally allowed on ship, i got to see the rotten mentality @Oscar so much talk about prevalent in our defence establishment. I'll share the positive news first

* PNS HIMMAT all 6 launchers have harba missile written on them
* Harba was tested against upto 350 Km. Official range is 300. Officer showed me a photo of harba hitting bulls eys at the target.

Rest of the conversation Happened this way

*as per officer there is a area of interest, and area of concern. So dont ask me questions which are not related to me as my area of concern is this ship only. I was asking him about previous azmat class ships missile tube upgradation

* as per the officer azmat class 1 and 2 not gonna be upgraded with new missile launchers neither F22p will be upgraded

* when i pressed him why, he said why should we ? We are gonna use multiple systems. When i raised the issue why such a mentality exist. He shurgged say. Not my area of interest to know

*I asked accompyning officer is harba subsonic or supersonic. He said he doesnt know despite him being on board during the test launch

*the overall mentality was, they are good at their job, have zero knowledge to properly understand the threats evolving around them. Will shut you up with this logic that this is secret. We wont tell because world eyes are upon us. I told both officerd, indians, britishers americans were more forthcoming hospitable and knowledgeable than you two were. They shrugged there shoulders again

*Brahmos is not so much of a threat. I laughed and said how you gonna intercept a supersonic missile with Pakistani ships ? Then i had to tell him what supersonic means. And he said we are quite capable we will protect pakistani shore

* The mantra throughout the tour was, Pakistan navy is quite capable to protect against all threats. When asked what happens India increases range to 700 Km. They avoided answering

*Then i was ushered hurriedly out when someone shouted from outside, "Farigh karaao unno JALDI". As another VIP delegation was coming

*Commander of the ship met with me by chance with a typical bureaucratic attitude and then walked away from there

The crux of the entire 3 day visit turks were the best professionally if they were like pakistanis they would have shut me up on each question




So much for your questions. I was met with a suspicious behaviour by PN that how so much i know and why am i asking this questions

Bro it is better to ask turks than our own pakistanisu

Again, quality of intake in all armed forces is about to hit rock bottom.
Whereas there is an increase in India in uptake from educated middle class, the opposite is happening in Pakistan save the military families.

Frankly, in 10-15 years time.. any conflict will have India mop the floor with the faces of Pakistani officers and personnel; equipment or no equipment.
Unless better mentality is promoted in ranks.

This doesn’t mean that there aren’t good officers; they just realize the stench and generally retire.

Also,

During Kargil.. Naval officers rushed to hospitals to have themselves declared unfit for battle. I wonder what category does one put those men?

 

[SipahSalar]

Harba was tested against upto 350 Km. Official range is 300. Officer showed me a photo of harba hitting bulls eys at the target.

Does it have a range of only 350km even in LACM role?

 

[Bratva]

Again, quality of intake in all armed forces is about to hit rock bottom.
Whereas there is an increase in India in uptake from educated middle class, the opposite is happening in Pakistan save the military families.

Frankly, in 10-15 years time.. any conflict will have India mop the floor with the faces of Pakistani officers and personnel; equipment or no equipment.
Unless better mentality is promoted in ranks.

This doesn’t mean that there aren’t good officers; they just realize the stench and generally retire.

Also,

During Kargil.. Naval officers rushed to hospitals to have themselves declared unfit for battle. I wonder what category does one put those men?

The outlook, the way they talk. The way they make you feel uncomfortable. Level of education. The sailors were perfect epitome of our general populace. Jaan Churao Program. Putting their work on someone else shoulder unless there is a VIP to suck up to.

Before I was given "Farigh karao issay" on Pakistani ship. I was invited to lunch by a sailor. But they had to usher me out because of VIP delegation and I requested water which was given in a tradition small steel glass.

On the other hand. The british chaps I met. It was like Dil Garden Garden ho gaya.Though it was auxiliary ship and attitude was expectantly relax. That British who was giving us tour was cracking jokes. Royal Marine commandos abroad british ship gave us the Weapon demo as well. Americans were quite formal since they had a USS Samson warship and had to decline several of my Questions. But their sailor look quite healthy and educated plus Very young like 19+ as compare to all the middle age Pakistani sailors

Indian sailors gave me bottle of water I requested. Gave me sweet to eat when I was about to leave. Their Lt.Commander gave chinese delegation a visit who was there before me and then assigned a junior officer to gave me a visit who politely told me gaps in his knowledge since he recently came onto this ship. Bridge of INS Kolkata was offlimits to me and Indian visitors alike.

Does it have a range of only 350km even in LACM role?

Anti Ship Role strictly. There were two conflicting news given to me. But common point was. NESCOM was present on PNS Himmat and they pushed the launch button as per Weapons officer and he told it is still in Testing phase. More tests are expected. Other one told me It is operationalized. Multiple tests were conducted silently and this one which became successful. Hence they announced it Publicly

This behaviour prevails mostly among these navy chaps for some reason. You are lucky to have boarded the ship at least, i was not even allowed that despite i mentioned the background.

I think the navy is in for a rude awakening though i pray may that day never come. They are naive either by design or due to higher ups but this behaviour is not acceptable. They need to show some courtesy at least.

Out of all three services, i found the airforce chaps to be more forthcoming as far as i know.

Initially sailors did ask me If you are a Nescom Engineer. Because it was Nescom + MTC test. They just loaned Himmat from Navy.

Courtesy you say ? It needs proper education and stop sucking up to VIP. Then their behaviour going to improve

One thing I learnt from INS Kolkata Visit. Brahmos requires a radar to be fired. They have installed a specific radar with which they calculate Firing solution of Brahmos. I asked several times if Multi functional Radar can do the same thing. Junior officer said It cant. I said what happen if Brahmos radar goes out. He said obviously there will be lot of problem firing it. He didn't explain much. But Multi Functional radar can not fire Brahmos as per INS kolkata.

 

[SipahSalar]

The outlook, the way they talk. The way they make you feel uncomfortable. Level of education. The sailors were perfect epitome of our general populace. Jaan Churao Program. Putting their work on someone else shoulder unless there is a VIP to suck up to.

On the other hand. The british chaps I met. It was like Dil Garden Garden ho gaya.Though it was auxiliary ship and attitude was expectantly relax. That British who was giving us tour was cracking jokes. Royal Marine commandos abroad british ship gave us the Weapon demo as well. Americans were quite formal since they had a USS Samson warship and had to decline several of my Questions. But their sailor look quite healthy. All of them plus educated plus Very young like 19+ as compare to all the middle age Pakistani sailors

Indian sailors gave me bottle of water I requested. Gave me sweet to eat when I was about to leave. Their Lt.Commander gave chinese delegation a visit who was there before me and then assigned a junior officer to gave me a visit who politely told me gaps in his knowledge since he recently came onto in his Bridge of INS Kolkata was offlimits to me and Indian visitors alike. Before I was given "Farigh karao issay" Two minutes ago, I was invited to lunch by a sailor. But they had to usher me out because of VIP delegation and I requested water which was given in a tradition small steel glass.



Anti Ship Role strictly. There were two conflicting news given to me. But common point was. NESCOM was present on PNS Himmat and they pushed the launch button as per Weapons officer and he told it is still in Testing phase. More tests are expected. Other one told me It is operationalized. Multiple tests were conducted silently and this one which became successful. Hence they announced it Publicly



Initially sailors did ask me If you are a Nescom Engineer. Because it was Nescom + MTC test. They just loaned Himmat from Navy.

Courtesy you say ? It needs proper education and stop sucking up to VIP. Then their behaviour going to improve

To be fair, its probably above their pay grade to formulate how to counter Brahmos etc. It's as if you ask a major in army how they will counter cold start doctrine. Without having taken a war course (taken at Colonel rank), he is simply not equipped to answer you. On top of that Pakistani military maintains ambiguity around a lot of its systems, since as you know there is no formal announcement of Harba's actual range, although with a range of 350km it would have been good publicity for them.

The sucking up to VIP's is also understandable. They are there to offer something to sell and those VIP's are their targets, so they will obviously get priority. And FAC being a very small ship, it might be difficult to accommodate civilians and VIPs at the same time.

BUT if they really don't know what a supersonic or subsonic AShM is then we are in deep trouble.

 

[Bratva]

To be fair, its probably above their pay grade to formulate how to counter Brahmos etc. It's as if you ask a major in army how they will counter cold start doctrine. Without having taken a war course (taken at Colonel rank), he is simply not equipped to answer you. On top of that Pakistani military maintains ambiguity around a lot of its systems, since as you know there is no formal announcement of Harba's actual range, although with a range of 350km it would have been good publicity for them.

The sucking up to VIP's is also understandable. They are there to offer something to sell and those VIP's are their targets, so they will obviously get priority. And FAC being a very small ship, it might be difficult to accommodate civilians and VIPs at the same time.

BUT if they really don't know what a supersonic or subsonic AShM is then we are in deep trouble.

Looking at recent purchases of Pakistan Navy, Do you see they are capable enough to handle brahmos?

That Much I can tell Pakistan Navy was not there to sell anything. They didnot had any stall in Exhibition. It was turks who came prepared with their land systems, to Airforce system to Navy to communication systems. Then It was americans who were with Lockeed and General dynamics and Northrop AFAIK . Pakistanis were there for Moujay and Good Will visit

 

[LeGenD]

@Bratva

You visited USS Sampson as in Arleigh Burke-class destroyer (DDG-52)? Can you share your thoughts?

This article might address some queries: https://whitefleet.net/2017/07/31/the-arleigh-burke-class-destroyer-ddg-51-an-in-depth-guide/

 

[Bratva]

@Bratva

You visited USS Sampson as in Arleigh Burke-class destroyer? Can you share your thoughts?

This article might address some queries: https://whitefleet.net/2017/07/31/the-arleigh-burke-class-destroyer-ddg-51-an-in-depth-guide/

Yup that is the one. Well there was an entire Container wall around the ship. For security reasons. So we had to walk like extra 1 KM to reach to the ship. I jokingly asked if they want to protect their ship from Wildlings.

There were two guides. One was MH-60 Pilot and other was some Executive officer. They gave us general descriptions of everything. To be hell. There is more information in link than they give to us Like they refused to acknowledge what is in the VLS. But interestingly USS Mason sailor on Sampson gave us the overview of VLS. that there are 96 VLS and it holds variety of ESSM, SM-2 and Tomahawk. Then they showed us the equipments and bridge. Thats it. MH-60 pilot gave his experiences how he has to land helicopter in choppy waters. plus a detailed description of MH-60.

But I did ask why there is no radar tower installed on this Arleigh burke class instead of rotating radar. The executive officer told that it is more complex and expensive and less moving parts and we have no plan to upgrade to it since we are satisfed with what we have

They did show us the tubes that fire countermeasures. But refuse to answer how do they identify if upcoming missile is IR seeker or a RF seeker and then deploy countermeasures accordingly.

1st 90B mod will be completed by 2020.
Contract for 2nd 90B has been signed, which will be completed in 2021.
Contract for 3rd will be signed soon.

Ada is a corvette and does not require VLS as per its role.
The new FFGs coming from China will carry a VLS.

Taking apart the whole submarine, putting new systems, integrating them. Without ANY french help as per STM. So as per the the member of lead team, This timings can easily be pushed further as it is quite a complex project

 

[LeGenD]

@Bratva

My man, you really lucky to see one up close.

I get the impression that an Arleigh-burke class destroyer is a fortress of a ship, packing lot of firepower and impressive stuff. It is understandable why they not want to discuss its capabilities at length.

Arleigh-burke class is set to receive a radar system update to AN/SPY-6 configuration, also known as AMDR. Extremely powerful radar system by all accounts. FYI: http://missiledefenseadvocacy.org/m...s-2/air-and-missile-defense-radar-amdr/#_edn1

Even its stock AN/SPY-1 can spot, distinguish and track movements of over 100 targets at the same time in real-time, ranging from sea-skimming to ballistic.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts; really appreciated.

 

[Path-Finder]

One of the worst visits of my Life to a Pakistani ship. Got turned down twice to board the ship because there was a vip delegation aboard due to which they wont allow civilians. The british, American, Indian ship i visited had concurrent vip/civilian visits. When i was finally allowed on ship, i got to see the rotten mentality @Oscar so much talk about prevalent in our defence establishment. I'll share the positive news first

* PNS HIMMAT all 6 launchers have harba missile written on them
* Harba was tested upto 350 Km. Official range is 300. Officer showed me a photo of harba hitting bullseys on the target.

Rest of the conversation Happened this way

*as per officer there is a area of interest, and area of concern. So dont ask me questions which are not related to me as my area of concern is this ship only. I was asking him about previous azmat class ships missile tube upgradation

* as per the officer azmat class 1 and 2 not gonna be upgraded with new missile launchers neither F22p will be upgraded

* when i pressed him why, he said why should we ? We are gonna use multiple systems. When i raised the issue why such a mentality exist. He shrugged say. Not my area of interest to know

*I asked accompyning officer is harba subsonic or supersonic. He said he doesnt know despite him being on board during the test launch

*the overall mentality was, they are good at their job, have zero knowledge to properly understand the threats evolving around them. Will shut you up with this logic that this is secret. We wont tell because world eyes are upon us. I told both officerd, indians, britishers americans were more forthcoming hospitable and knowledgeable than you two were. They shrugged there shoulders again

*Brahmos is not so much of a threat. I laughed and said how you gonna intercept a supersonic missile with Pakistani ships ? Then i had to tell him what supersonic means. And he said we are quite capable we will protect pakistani shore

* The mantra throughout the tour was, Pakistan navy is quite capable to protect against all threats. When asked what happens India increases range to 700 Km. They avoided answering

*Then i was ushered hurriedly out when someone shouted from outside, "Farigh karaao unno JALDI". As another VIP delegation was coming

*Commander of the ship met with me by chance with a typical bureaucratic attitude and then walked away from there

The crux of the entire 3 day visit turks were the best professionally if they were like pakistanis they would have shut me up on each question




So much for your questions. I was met with a suspicious behaviour by PN that how so much i know and why am i asking this questions

Bro it is better to ask turks than our own pakistanisu

very sad! At least the army has started to mingle with the public by doing displays and so on but its not good behaviour regardless.

 

[Viking 63]

This is really a pathetic behavior by PN personals. They think the civilians don't know anything or they are the only people in Pakistan who can read and write.

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

Taking apart the whole submarine, putting new systems, integrating them. Without ANY french help as per STM. So as per the the member of lead team, This timings can easily be pushed further as it is quite a complex project

My brother is a submariner.