Differences crop up with Russia over Pak fa ..

[Dash]

I don't know why Indians think that things which can happen to other countries can't happen to India? Infect India is more vulnerable - Her diversity, disputes like Kashmir, issues of red corridor and communal tensions are enough to bring India to her knees IF US want - I know Indians will give me lectures on this but this is fact which can be seen only with rational mindset not by wearing glasses of patriotism.

Sorry to intervene as you said "Indians"...
So here is what I have to say.. I am not denying what @forcetrip or you have to say about India and its weaknesses, especially with current breed of politicians who rule the country and not we 'net warriors' But I have a question for you...

forget US, but you will agree that China(forget Pak) wants such a scenario? however I dont see them getting much gain in using our weaknesses, I dont see them making any inroad in infecting those straying minds, I dont see them creating a civil war and I dont see them make these laying dormant groups demand for the division of Indian state. which gives me enough confidence in my security system that even though we are susceptible we know what our weaknesses are and know how to handle them. so far people against us have been unsuccessful.

 

[帅的一匹]

@ sovcomflot

Whether we tilt towards west or not, this has to happen.

What we are asking is not a small pie, a nation with no experience is engine development and fighter development (Kaveri? Lca?) wants control of R&D and control of selling rights. Means are are asking much more than just a customer wants.

And we know that they need our money and we need their technology...tough negotiations ahead....

Good that IAF foresee this situation and heavily paid for M2k upgrade an an interim solution.

China would like to buy some Pakfa for research if they don't put us on the blacklist.

 

[帅的一匹]

At first Russia invite China to join develop Pakafa, we reject the proposal cause we already run J20 project. I think India is just asking too much as a customer.

Will India turn for F35 instead of Pakfa?

Sorry to intervene as you said "Indians"...
So here is what I have to say.. I am not denying what @forcetrip or you have to say about India and its weaknesses, especially with current breed of politicians who rule the country and not we 'net warriors' But I have a question for you...

forget US, but you will agree that China(forget Pak) wants such a scenario? however I dont see them getting much gain in using our weaknesses, I dont see them making any inroad in infecting those straying minds, I dont see them creating a civil war and I dont see them make these laying dormant groups demand for the division of Indian state. which gives me enough confidence in my security system that even though we are susceptible we know what our weaknesses are and know how to handle them. so far people against us have been unsuccessful.

China is quite successful, what you say?

 

[k7x]

India or bharat can not be split like soviet as long as hindus and other indian religions are there .

Hindus in north india have to go to
Rameshwaram and
hindus in south india have to go to kashi

people from all over india have to visit trupathi(a.p), sabarimala(k.l),shridi(mh)badrinath, kedarnath etc ect.


Today all theae places are united as single country india. But 100 years back it was 100s of states or countries. Still people have evolved with extreme tolerence.

Unity of the country is not in political map. It is the minds of the people..

This applies to Hindus ,shiks,jains,budhists etc.

Fortunately those that are following indianized christianity are also tolerent towardas other religions.

Majority of muslims love india becase it is their land they are not outsiders. Their forefathers have tried to approach divinity through islam. Other than that they still are proud of their history.

Unfortunately there is asmall section of bad elements in each

A christian fundamentalist will want every one to be christian .for him Only through chriatianity god
can be reached. Others will peresh in hell. So his duty is to convert every one. He will have less tolernce to others belief.

a muslim fundamentalist will want every one to be muslim. Only muslim is rightt person to live others even if you kill them god wont punish you. Based on some brainwashing done by vested intrest these pleople will have 0tolerence

a hindu fundamentalist will say i want to save hindus from above two types of people and they will have less tolerence towards otherss


all these three people are very low minorities in india. They will create problems but the rest will ignore them

 

[Sugarcane]

Sorry to intervene as you said "Indians"...
So here is what I have to say.. I am not denying what @forcetrip or you have to say about India and its weaknesses, especially with current breed of politicians who rule the country and not we 'net warriors' But I have a question for you...

forget US, but you will agree that China(forget Pak) wants such a scenario? however I dont see them getting much gain in using our weaknesses, I dont see them making any inroad in infecting those straying minds, I dont see them creating a civil war and I dont see them make these laying dormant groups demand for the division of Indian state. which gives me enough confidence in my security system that even though we are susceptible we know what our weaknesses are and know how to handle them. so far people against us have been unsuccessful.

Good for you that your security system can easily handle the problems.

 

[faithfulguy]

Obviously this was to happen .Russians are not going to tolerate India's shift into the western alliance.

The guy who was involved with russian technicans in creating arihant is dead. Seems russian GRU is moving quick to neutralize any knowledge transfer it made ,so that India cannot turn over that knowledge to Western alliance.

I have been telling Indian members for a long time. That India has to pick a side. Otherwise, they would just do business deals with India. No one will trust India as no one know what India is going to do. Friends with no one means no one will be friendly to you.

Pissing Russia off is the worst India could do. Russia helped India in 1971,when the khalistan movement was underway and gave satellite intelligence on Kashmiri terrorists movements,the same guys who West supported.

The congress regime will balkanize India if not overthrown.Only army can overthrow it now.

India should assess what is best for its future. Not what happened in the past.

 

[forcetrip]

Creation of Bangladesh..

Creation of Bangladesh what? Still not following you.

India split Pakistan and made it into Bangladesh. Geography played a part in how that scenario played out. That was when the US fleet was magically going to appear and tough words were supposedly being conveyed to India, and blah blah. We did not learn from being left at the alter the first time. we became the spear to poke the Russians and then were left on our own again. Would Pakistan blame the Russians if they pay for Baluchistan to be on fire? Yes they would. Because most of us have a very selective memory.

That underlined part....looking at the current scenario, according to you US will be able to push China back by 10 years? and god knows that they want that...will they be able to?

Even if I go by what you said later that 'We need to look at South East Asia" and China is not in south east Asia. But do you think even if US wants it can push China or even for that matter hold China's growth for 10 years to at least delay their advancement in challenging the west?

If you are a little bit educated and have a normal IQ you can do an approximate analysis of what the 1b population of China is like and what the 1b population of India is like. I came to my personal conclusion of not considering China to be anywhere near anything South Asian. You are more than welcome to your own assumptions in this regard. US gets locked out on minuet misunderstandings on government level regarding their security. Companies the size of google have to pack their bags for being government stooges. Its not a fake islamic republic or a fake secular country. They are heavily governed by the military. And a billion of them are happy with what their governing has given them uptill now minus a few. Who knows how the future will shape for them, but as of now they have nothing to do with the rest of us brown people countries. Take a trip there and check their villages to see what I am trying to say.

I know these countries and I will say my country is not insusceptible to such an invasion but US has no such intention now and there is no point in talking about it. But in future, yes, once China (if ever) is checkmate then India is next and its an obvious fact. but thats not goin to happen in next 50 years and we cant comment now.

My point is though west is cunning and greedy and when we say west I can only see US and UK as west and others are too weak to join any league ( take example from how others supported US in calling an action against Syria), that the west in topic is weakening as we speak and its not long when they will not be left with energy to make any significant changes in coming future. and we are talking about dividing a country into half or pushing someone beck by 10 years...if someone can hold us from becoming a power its only us.

You should know how foreign interventions have started happening since the beginning of Obama's term. Boots on the ground in the gift wrapping of freeing the population of tyranny and promoting democracy is so last century. They also tried the "
Only Air power" option as well. The "only us" is more than enough for them to get the changes they want.

The US will be the last country in this world to run out of energy. That much is guaranteed for the next 100 years.

That's altogether different topic , I was just highlighting the failure of US in achieving their objective.

Its not just US aims to keep that part to be in constant upheaval. US might have the most minimal hand in Baluchistan if any. And I do not understand how a province can just make an own country in today's world. Thats like saying Kashmir would be and independent country, thats just ludicrous. Whats happening in Baluchistan is extremely effective at keeping the rod in the wheel. Wasted resources amount to stunted growth.

 

[faithfulguy]

Its more related to the Corporate lobby and the IMF puppets who rule india who are taking India into the western alliance.If Russia was greedy it would not have given supersonic sea skimming missile technology or nuclear submarines.West will never do TOT of nuclear subs ,Russia did.

Now you will see Russian greed and teeth in coming times. Russia might try some of the tricks they apply to Eastern Europe for gas trading



Russia is aware.India is already lost .Russia is already focusing on Latin america ,Africa for military sales.Particularly Latin america .

You overestimate India's bargaining power. Believe me , you haven't seen what Russia can do till now.You will see in future.



According to RAW ,CIA has plans to split india from 2015 onwards.

As I had mentioned, India will be under pressure to break into many pieces because its several countries stitch together by the British rail line. That is why its relatively easy to balkanize India.

@ sovcomflot

Whether we tilt towards west or not, this has to happen.

What we are asking is not a small pie, a nation with no experience is engine development and fighter development (Kaveri? Lca?) wants control of R&D and control of selling rights. Means are are asking much more than just a customer wants.

And we know that they need our money and we need their technology...tough negotiations ahead....

Good that IAF foresee this situation and heavily paid for M2k upgrade an an interim solution.

Unless India break off relationship with the west, Russia is giving India zilch. So India has to accept the customer/seller relationship in the PAKFA deal or walk off now.

 

[Dash]

Creation of Bangladesh what? Still not following you.

India split Pakistan and made it into Bangladesh. Geography played a part in how that scenario played out. That was when the US fleet was magically going to appear and tough words were supposedly being conveyed to India, and blah blah. We did not learn from being left at the alter the first time. we became the spear to poke the Russians and then were left on our own again. Would Pakistan blame the Russians if they pay for Baluchistan to be on fire? Yes they would. Because most of us have a very selective memory.





If you are a little bit educated and have a normal IQ you can do an approximate analysis of what the 1b population of China is like and what the 1b population of India is like. I came to my personal conclusion of not considering China to be anywhere near anything South Asian. You are more than welcome to your own assumptions in this regard. US gets locked out on minuet misunderstandings on government level regarding their security. Companies the size of google have to pack their bags for being government stooges. Its not a fake islamic republic or a fake secular country. They are heavily governed by the military. And a billion of them are happy with what their governing has given them uptill now minus a few. Who knows how the future will shape for them, but as of now they have nothing to do with the rest of us brown people countries. Take a trip there and check their villages to see what I am trying to say.

[/B]

You should know how foreign interventions have started happening since the beginning of Obama's term. Boots on the ground in the gift wrapping of freeing the population of tyranny and promoting democracy is so last century. They also tried the "
Only Air power" option as well. The "only us" is more than enough for them to get the changes they want.

The US will be the last country in this world to run out of energy. That much is guaranteed for the next 100 years

First of all you are not listening to what i am saying and thats why you are failing to understand despite having a great IQ.

I never said i am including China in south east Asia so please refrain from accusing me of doing so. You are correct in saying Chinese fear and suspicion will not allow US to cripple them from inside and they witnessed Tienanmen square with their bare eyes. Obviously they will try it from outside to stop and check their expansion which they are doing and they are getting support too...so US in a way has "been' able to contain China's expansion or atleast create troubles that will keep Chian busy for a decade or two, even more...

Regarding the only 'air power' option they could only tried but the bubble didnt last long.

Now again....I didnt say US will run out of energy. but by engaging itself in maintaining its super power status, it will drain its energy. and no country is powerful enough to fight a war which might span 100 yrs....and leet me assure you that..

 

[forcetrip]

First of all you are not listening to what i am saying and thats why you are failing to understand despite having a great IQ.

I never said i am including China in south east Asia so please refrain from accusing me of doing so. You are correct in saying Chinese fear and suspicion will not allow US to cripple them from inside and they witnessed Tienanmen square with their bare eyes. Obviously they will try it from outside to stop and check their expansion which they are doing and they are getting support too...so US in a way has "been' able to contain China's expansion or atleast create troubles that will keep Chian busy for a decade or two, even more...

Regarding the only 'air power' option they could only tried but the bubble didnt last long.

Now again....I didnt say US will run out of energy. but by engaging itself in maintaining its super power status, it will drain its energy. and no country is powerful enough to fight a war which might span 100 yrs....and leet me assure you that..

Its always better to fight a clear enemy than one that's within your borders. China has a good advantage there. Its still no match for the US military might but it has progressed far from its reach of self imploding countries. We shall both be hopefully alive for another 50 years to see how the world shapes up. One thing is for sure that we will continue to buy their weapons even 50 years from now.

They will never have to fight another war like afghanistan or iraq. Or so they are hoping. They are reshaping the world just to make those goals a reality. Nothing is perfectly planned. Everything is predicted to a certain degree from where it can take off on its own. Some things work, while somethings dont. As long as all these things can be experimented outside the US borders, it is a win win situation for the US machine.

We do not know how the fuel of the future will look like. If it is oil that we continue to use then let me tell you again that US will be the last country using oil as fuel even 20 years after everyone has run out. We can find an easy way of looking at US undeclared oil reserves due to the no drilling option practiced by them while importing foreign crude till its attainable hassle free or with minimum hassle.

 

[TopCat]

India wants to be part of R&D deal when PAK already in the sky. Russian aerospace industry already have enough R&D done to put a new design in the sky in no time. Russian thought of squeezing India a bit similar to the deal of SU-30 MKI. But India wants specification of metalurgy of the engines, no sale to third country.. WAIT a MINUTE.

 

[[Bregs]]

Russia and India both need each other for such a complex and huge deal running into several billions of dollars, differences will come as Russia wouldn't like to part with crucial technology and India being equal partner in funding will try to gain as much know how as possible

Both countries know they need each other, Russia for funding from India and also the assurance with it that India won't leak or reverse engineer there product technology.

 

[TopCat]

Russia and India both need each other for such a complex and huge deal running into several billions of dollars, differences will come as Russia wouldn't like to part with crucial technology and India being equal partner in funding will try to gain as much know how as possible

Both countries know they need each other, Russia for funding from India and also the assurance with it that India won't leak or reverse engineer there product technology.

Funding from India or a Sale from India.... Clear the smoke first. I think you over estimated the PAK-FA deal when Sukui really needed some cash. The situation is completely different now.

India paid only few hundred million and the PAK already in the sky. That only proves that Russians are very capable to going ahead with the project with no Indian involvement.

 

[[Bregs]]

Funding from India or a Sale from India.... Clear the smoke first. I think you over estimated the PAK-FA deal when Sukui really needed some cash. The situation is completely different now.

India paid only few hundred million and the PAK already in the sky. That only proves that Russians are very capable to going ahead with the project with no Indian involvement.

What a biased opinion you have, this fighter won't go into commercial production without the specific amount of orders from both Indian and Russian air forces. There are already the rumors in air about the commercial viability of project to sustain itself if Indian deal fell through

Do you think such a costly technology plane will be a commercially viable option if produced in limited numbers. Russians even succesfully flied MIG 35 and Sukhoi but they didn't go into serial production ! why ? because there were no orders from the countries where they were intended to be sold like china or India

Having always biased opinion against India's interest won't make your reasoning stronger in this Pak FA case

 

[chhota bheem]

As I had mentioned, India will be under pressure to break into many pieces because its several countries stitch together by the British rail line. That is why its relatively easy to balkanize India.



Unless India break off relationship with the west, Russia is giving India zilch. So India has to accept the customer/seller relationship in the PAKFA deal or walk off now.

Where did you get the idea of breaking India.i have seen you using the same line of argument in most of the threads about India.