Did the Turks fathered the greeks? or is that a myth

[dBSPL]

Anatolian political map, after collapse of Seljuks, 13th century. Except for Byzantium and Trabzon, the Greeks Hellenic culture had no political power nor dominance in people.

 

[Battlion25]

@Apollon sorry about that and don't qoute me on it just delete I will take that intial post back and delete it

 

[Valar.]

In 21st century nobody should be discussing races. This idea is way too obsolete/backward. It reeks of sexism/misogyny and superiority/inferiority complexes.

A child just doesn't come from a father, it also comes from a mother. It inherits genes from both parents. That child could be from your rival nation or could be from your own nation. That child later on marries whoever it wants. It could be someone from its maternal side of family or paternal or neither.

 

[Foinikas]

This is where I have to stop you brother.. This is falsehood and incorrect slender. There was a strict moral code in place and I assure if a soldier was to commit rape he will get death penalty and there have been incidents where Soldiers have been put to death.. No Amir or sergant wants a rapists in his rank according to Islamic laws..

I will not go to older sources,back in the late medieval chronicles and early 19th century. I'll show you some from the early 20th century if you want:

In an article first published in The Red Cross Magazine (March, 1918), Henry Morgenthau (1856-1946), United States ambassador to Turkey, asked:


"Will the outrageous terrorising, the cruel torturing, the driving of women into the harems, the debauchery of innocent girls, the sale of many of them at eighty cents each, the murdering of hundreds of thousands and the deportation to, and starvation in, the deserts of other hundreds of thousands, the destruction of hundreds of villages and cities, will the wilful execution of this whole devilish scheme to annihilate the Armenian, Greek and Syrian Christians of Turkey -- will all this go unpunished?"3


On 9 January 1917 Ernst von Kwiatkowski telegraphed:


"Up to today in the region of Samsoun Turkish troops plundered and burned 16 Greek villages with 890 houses, 17 churches and 16 schools. Previously the same troops burned and plundered 22 villages with 341 houses and 2 churches. 75 individuals were murdered including 3 priests and 69 women were raped."4



The Austrian Ambassador of Constantinople, Johann Markgraf von Pallavicini (1848 -1941), described the events in and around Samsun in December 1916:


“11 December 1916. Five Greek villages were pillaged and then burnt. Their inhabitants were deported. 12 December 1916. In the outskirts of the city more villages are burnt. 14 December 1916. Entire villages including schools and the churches are set on fire. 17 December 1916. In the district of Samsoun they burnt eleven villages. The pillaging continues. The village inhabitants are ill-treated. 31 December 1916. Approximately 18 villages were completely burnt down, 15 partially. Around 60 women were raped. Even churches are plundered.”5


Major Forrest D. Yowell (b. 1882), director of the Kharput Near East Relief unit, May 1922:


“Two thirds of the Greek deportees are women and children. All along the route where these deportees have travelled Turks are permitted to visit refugee groups and select women and girls whom they desire for any purpose. These deportations are still in progress, and if American aid is now withdrawn all will perish. Their whole route is today strewn with bodies of their dead, which are consumed by dogs, wolves, vultures. The Turks make no effort to bury these dead and the deportees are themselves not permitted to do so."10

 

[MMM-E]

Turkic blood everywhere

 

[dBSPL]

Hellenic culture has roots in Libya or Lebanon, even in Egypt, and it really goes back a long way. But in order to say the same for Anatolia, it is necessary to know nothing about Anatolian civilizations or to ignore them completely. They conquered, but at the end of they, they left as they came. When Atatürk defeated the Greek invasion, this is why refers to the ancient civilizations of Anatolia.

 

[Battlion25]

I will not go to older sources,back in the late medieval chronicles and early 19th century. I'll show you some from the early 20th century if you want:

In an article first published in The Red Cross Magazine (March, 1918), Henry Morgenthau (1856-1946), United States ambassador to Turkey, asked:


"Will the outrageous terrorising, the cruel torturing, the driving of women into the harems, the debauchery of innocent girls, the sale of many of them at eighty cents each, the murdering of hundreds of thousands and the deportation to, and starvation in, the deserts of other hundreds of thousands, the destruction of hundreds of villages and cities, will the wilful execution of this whole devilish scheme to annihilate the Armenian, Greek and Syrian Christians of Turkey -- will all this go unpunished?"3


On 9 January 1917 Ernst von Kwiatkowski telegraphed:


"Up to today in the region of Samsoun Turkish troops plundered and burned 16 Greek villages with 890 houses, 17 churches and 16 schools. Previously the same troops burned and plundered 22 villages with 341 houses and 2 churches. 75 individuals were murdered including 3 priests and 69 women were raped."4



The Austrian Ambassador of Constantinople, Johann Markgraf von Pallavicini (1848 -1941), described the events in and around Samsun in December 1916:


“11 December 1916. Five Greek villages were pillaged and then burnt. Their inhabitants were deported. 12 December 1916. In the outskirts of the city more villages are burnt. 14 December 1916. Entire villages including schools and the churches are set on fire. 17 December 1916. In the district of Samsoun they burnt eleven villages. The pillaging continues. The village inhabitants are ill-treated. 31 December 1916. Approximately 18 villages were completely burnt down, 15 partially. Around 60 women were raped. Even churches are plundered.”5


Major Forrest D. Yowell (b. 1882), director of the Kharput Near East Relief unit, May 1922:


“Two thirds of the Greek deportees are women and children. All along the route where these deportees have travelled Turks are permitted to visit refugee groups and select women and girls whom they desire for any purpose. These deportations are still in progress, and if American aid is now withdrawn all will perish. Their whole route is today strewn with bodies of their dead, which are consumed by dogs, wolves, vultures. The Turks make no effort to bury these dead and the deportees are themselves not permitted to do so."10

You have qouted questionable sources including the later periods where some of the Ottomans were turning into the Young Turks who were behind the genocides..

The real classical ottoman was gone during early 18-century whatever came after them were just a farce especially the Young Turks who were vile and atheists who commit most of the atrocites like the Armenian genocide etc etc..

The classical Ottoman were entirely different and lived by a code of conduct.. One of the reasons the empire started to fade during the mid 18th century is because they have abandoned slowly there moral code and going towards atheism

 

[Foinikas]

Anatolian political map, after collapse of Seljuks, 13th century. Except for Byzantium and Trabzon, the Greeks Hellenic culture had no political power nor dominance in people.

View attachment 802908

In case you misunderstood what I said earlier: I'm not talking about political power. I'm talking about the people. The population. The majority of the population in Anatolia for centuries was Greek. The culture was Hellenic,but after the late medieval period,the Ottomans started becoming the dominant population. It makes sense,they multiplied,some of the Greeks left to other Christian regions,some converted to islam etc.

 

[dBSPL]

In case you misunderstood what I said earlier: I'm not talking about political power. I'm talking about the people. The population. The majority of the population in Anatolia for centuries was Greek. The culture was Hellenic,but after the late medieval period,the Ottomans started becoming the dominant population. It makes sense,they multiplied,some of the Greeks left to other Christian regions,some converted to islam etc.

In other words, although the Hellenic elements constituted the largest segment in Anatolia(your claim), you would expect people to believe that they could not create a single administrative structure within 15 Turkish principalities. Great.

There are Marco Polo maps and studies about the same period. What do you say to him? He talks about Anatolia as Turkomania?

 

[Foinikas]

You have qouted questionable sources including the later periods where some of the Ottomans were turning into the Young Turks who were behind the genocides..

The real classical ottoman was gone during early 18-century whatever came after them were just a farce especially the Young Turks who were vile and atheists who commit most of the atrocites like the Armenian genocide etc etc

Questionable sources? Are you kidding me? Ambassadors and relief workers are questionable sources?

Wait a minute,you only consider pure Ottomans the ones before the early 1700s? Anyway,there was still rape and pillage during the medieval Ottoman periods. What do you think usually happened when the Ottomans conquered a city or a castle? Have you read what happened when Constantinople fell,for example? I know that in your mind the Ottoman warrior symbolizes an important era of Islam for you.And not just you,many Pakistanis as well.

 

[Battlion25]

Questionable sources? Are you kidding me? Ambassadors and relief workers are questionable sources?

Wait a minute,you only consider pure Ottomans the ones before the early 1700s? Anyway,there was still rape and pillage during the medieval Ottoman periods. What do you think usually happened when the Ottomans conquered a city or a castle? Have you read what happened when Constantinople fell,for example? I know that in your mind the Ottoman warrior symbolizes an important era of Islam for you.And not just you,many Pakistanis as well.

This is some wicked slender nothing else without evidence. These men truly lived by a high moral strandard and code of conduct... Even a suspicion of decay in morality such as someone wanting to commit the act itself could make them lose their jobs as soldier and released from duty and if they were to fall into that it is death penalty due to the penalty being high nobody attempted that the gamble was to risky and it was rare and it never ended well if it occured for the one who acted upon it.

In Islam, human sexuality is governed by Islamic law (Sharia). Accordingly, sexual violation is regarded as a violation of moral and divine law. Islam divided claims of sexual violation into 'divine rights' (huquq Allah) and 'interpersonal rights' (huquq al-'ibad): the former requiring divine punishment (hadd penalties) and the latter belonging to the more flexible human realm.

Rape is considered a serious sexual crime in Islam. In Islam, rape is called Zina Al-Zibr or Ightisab, and it falls under the rules of Hirabah. Classical Islamic law (Shari'a) regarded the crime of sexual violation as a coercive zina, and therefore a hadd offence.

 

[Foinikas]

In other words, although the Hellenic elements constituted the largest segment in Anatolia(your claim), you would expect people to believe that they could not create a single administrative structure within 15 Turkish principalities. Great.

There are Marco Polo maps and studies about the same period. What do you say to him? He talks about Anatolia as Turkomania?

How would they create a single administrative structure? What do you mean? Like make their own principality or have their own region given to them by the Turks? There was Byzantium,they lost to the Seljuks progressively,then the Ottomans. All that greek population didn't just vanish in one day.

This is some wicked slender nothing else. These men truly lived by a high moral strandard and code of conduct

Maybe some Ghazis did. Not all. Why did chroniclers from various nations describe Ottoman atrocities often? Were they all nutcases and propagandists? You move to Serbian chroniclers,they'll tell you about Ottoman atrocities,you move to Magyars,the same,to Austrians,the same.Bulgarians,Greeks,Armenians. I'm talking about 15th-19th century accounts.

Why is it so hard for you to believe it? Many muslims say "oh oh Western knights weren't all romance and valor,they were also killing and pillaging". Ok. Then why is it so hard to accept that Muslim warriors weren't as kind either?

 

[dBSPL]

How would they create a single administrative structure? What do you mean? Like make their own principality or have their own region given to them by the Turks? There was Byzantium,they lost to the Seljuks progressively,then the Ottomans. All that greek population didn't just vanish in one day.

The Turks completed the conquest of all Anatolia in just 100 years. 1070-1200. If Byzantium had dominated this region not only with its army but also with its ethnicity, which formed the core of the state, it would not have had to retreat so quickly. The truth is that the Greeks were not as successful as you think in Hellenizing Anatolia. The fact that Georgians and Armenians preserve their cultural differences is also a very important factor in this.

If it weren't, there wouldn't have been a demographic like the one below in jus 1250s. Osman(founder leader of Ottomans) was not even a vitamin in the orange yet, while Turks was dominant factor in Anatolia.

 

[Battlion25]

Maybe some Ghazis did. Not all. Why did chroniclers from various nations describe Ottoman atrocities often? Were they all nutcases and propagandists? You move to Serbian chroniclers,they'll tell you about Ottoman atrocities,you move to Magyars,the same,to Austrians,the same.Bulgarians,Greeks,Armenians. I'm talking about 15th-19th century accounts.

Why is it so hard for you to believe it? Many muslims say "oh oh Western knights weren't all romance and valor,they were also killing and pillaging". Ok. Then why is it so hard to accept that Muslim warriors weren't as kind either?

Honestly we are not saying this to claim ourselves as angles or what not because we are not but the ground reality is that we truly followed what we said we were following hence our strict moral code of conduct followed as everywhere.. We stood for what we were preaching.. This is the main difference between us and the christians. All the areas we ruled their populations multiple including they had religious freedom and enjoyed life just like everyone else because it was forbidden for us to kill outside the combatants on the battle all the civilians were safe from our hands and illegal for us..

We were technically the only civilized civilization until the 20-century where civilizations started to remove racism and stuff like that and start to adopt globalism we were ahead on that for like 1500 years.

 

[Foinikas]

If Byzantium had dominated this region not only with its army but also with its ethnicity, which formed the core of the state, it would not have had to retreat so quickly.

The armies were beaten. The people couldn't retreat leave like that. They stayed on. Many people stayed on. It was the middle-ages.

The truth is that the Greeks were not as successful as you think in Hellenizing Anatolia. The fact that Georgians and Armenians preserve their cultural differences is also a very important factor in this.

Georgians and Armenians mostly stayed in the Caucasus. The Armenians were probably the second or third ethnic group in Anatolia before the Seljuks established themselves as the dominant power.