Did anza missiles fail during kargil?

[Irfan Baloch]

The reason this topic is being discussed is to ascertain the accuracy of claims and historically correct estimates.
The first mig ingested gas

who released that Gas? was it ISI or Hafiz Saeed?

I think the thread should be did the Mig fail to survive the vile gas? instead of Anza failing. because as far as the gunners with those ANZA were concerned , they scored the kills now the flame out coincidence can be unfortunate but it was a goal nonetheless.

I could say the same to you. The PAF knew its limitations, considering you also read the whole account half empty

look
must give them credit for creatively diverting the topic to something else. now we are talking about BVR instead of the 2 shot down Migs.. soon it will be Bhrahmos missiles and 1971 . yea MKI has been already mentioned.

so one Mig ingested gas to it was ANZA's failure
second Mig we wont discuss because IAF painted PAF with its BVR....

conclusion ANZA failed.

 

[Krate M]

I think the thread should be did the Mig fail to survive the vile gas? instead of Anza failing. because as far as the gunners with those ANZA were concerned , they scored the kills now the flame out coincidence can be unfortunate but it was a goal nonetheless.
look must give them credit for creatively diverting the topic to something else.

Bhai I dont intend to malign Pakistan armed forces by this thread. plz Google gas injestion during strafing , if you are really interested in the how the war developed.
I agree we should not divert from the topic.
I don't have the technical details of the reasons of failure. But it is interesting from a historical point of view. Also as citizens of the countries involved, we have a right to know what could have been done different. How the conflict helped shape the change in the armed forces. One prime example is speeding up of ROSE mirage and JF17 programs to increase bvr capable platforms in PAF.
@Oscar please help keep this discussion on track.

 

[Bilal.]

Irrelevent now. Anza is getting highly advanced sensors in the III upgrade. @Oscar can explain this.

Mk III is QW-2. I had picture of a poster from IDEAS but lost it.

 

[Donatello]

Better ask the shot down Migs and Mi8.

 

[Inception-06]

Anza did not fail because, after the Kargil show, even the Anza MK1 and later the MK-2 were sold to Malaysia in large numbers.

They did equip their Elite Forces with this MANPADS.

"The Armed Forces' 10th Brigade Paratroopers rapid reaction force is equipped with the Anza MK-1 and soon they will get also the MK-2 Version shoulder-fired missiles as additional firepower", Defence Minister Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak said.

Is the Malaysian defence Minister stupid that he did decide to buy the Anza MK-1 and MK-2 for his elite Forces and that after the Kargil war ?


The 10 Parachute Brigade, commonly known as 10th Para - is an elite airborne brigade-sized unit within the Malaysian Army tasked with being rapidly deployed inside or outside the boundaries of Malaysia.

• 361 Battery Air Defence Royal Artillery Regiment (Para)

Check this:

 

[Krate M]

@Ulla it is possible that there was a glitch rectified after kargil.
Of the 3 casualties at least one was due to malfunction. Of the remaining 2 was any confirmed not hit by stinger.
BTW newer version of anza can be really good. M16 is an example.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Better ask the shot down Migs and Mi8.

if that was failure boy imagine what would success look like

Bhai I dont intend to malign Pakistan armed forces by this thread. plz Google gas injestion during strafing , if you are really interested in the how the war developed.
.

until now I thought cabbage was the sole culprit in producing the most gas among people bit it seems this gas also beats MANPADs by bringing down jets before the SAMS can hit them.

 

[Inception-06]

@Ulla it is possible that there was a glitch rectified after kargil.
Of the 3 casualties at least one was due to malfunction. Of the remaining 2 was any confirmed not hit by stinger.
BTW newer version of anza can be really good. M16 is an example.

M16 ?

Fact is that Stinger was used by NLI and Mujahid Forces, to argument this were Taliban weapons and Fighters (Talibs did get Stingers from US.....), but the regular Army units in past and today were armed and TRAINED with the Anza-serie, and they did use it during the conflict 1999 extensivly without any malfunction report.

The Main Goal of the MANPAD during the Kargil-conflict was not to shoot down the IAF aircraft but impose such a high and deadly threat, that the IAF is not willing to fy in the red zone, like the IAF reacted during the Kargil conflict.

The Stingers could not impose a threat to IAF for LONG TIME such as the Anzas, because the missile stockpile was very low and not well maintained like the Anzas,Pakistan was under the US-Sanctions... Even the NLI and Mujahid units did not enjoyed the training backround and expirience in air defence like the regular Pakistan Army units which operated the Anza missiles. So at the end it was the ANZA wich reached the Goal and did not fail !

 

[Krate M]

Fact is that Stinger was used by NLI and Mujahid Forces, to argument this were Taliban weapons and Fighters (Talibs did get Stingers from US.....), but the regular Army units in past and today were armed and TRAINED with the Anza-serie, and they did use it during the conflict 1999 extensivly without any malfunction report.

The Main Goal of the MANPAD during the Kargil-conflict was not to shoot down the IAF aircraft but iimpose such a high and deadly threat, that the IAF is not willing to fy in the red zone, like the IAF reacted during the Kargil conflict.

The Stingers could not impose a threat to IAF for LONG TIME such as the Anzas, because the missile stockpile was very low and not well maintained like the Anzas,Pakistan was under the US-Sanctions... Even the NLI and Mujahid units did not enjoyed the training backround and expirience in air defence like the regular Pakistan Army units which operated the Anza missiles. So at the end it was the Stinger wich reached the Goal and did not fail !

Regarding the goal of manpads I agree completely. The tactic worked, causing IAF to change the strategy.
Also agree with stingers used as a tactic to make it look like mujahedin force present on the heights.
Regarding the performance of anza in kargil, I wish there was a CAG like report which would give a clear picture.
See the thread was started because I read some poster claiming " anza shot down all the aircraft downed in kargil" and I had also read a report saying 1 aircraft went down due to malfunction and another report saying anza failed completely.
So what is the truth?
It is possible that anza was working but did not shoot down any aircraft.
I don't doubt the fact that 1aircraft went down due to malfunction.
It is also possible one of the aircraft went down to anza. But all we have is fanboy proof.
I posted that article to get some kind of confirmation from reliable source.
This is not going to change past or cast a shadow on anza mk2 and beyond.
M16 reference was to show a system can have problems initially but can turn out to be a great system once they are rectified.
@Irfan Baloch I thought chana and chicken mix were responsible for that.

 

[Inception-06]

Regarding the goal of manpads I agree completely. The tactic worked, causing IAF to change the strategy.
Also agree with stingers used as a tactic to make it look like mujahedin force present on the heights.
Regarding the performance of anza in kargil, I wish there was a CAG like report which would give a clear picture.
See the thread was started because I read some poster claiming " anza shot down all the aircraft downed in kargil" and I had also read a report saying 1 aircraft went down due to malfunction and another report saying anza failed completely.
So what is the truth?
It is possible that anza was working but did not shoot down any aircraft.
I don't doubt the fact that 1aircraft went down due to malfunction.
It is also possible one of the aircraft went down to anza. But all we have is fanboy proof.
I posted that article to get some kind of confirmation from reliable source.
This is not going to change past or cast a shadow on anza mk2 and beyond.
M16 reference was to show a system can have problems initially but can turn out to be a great system once they are rectified.
@Irfan Baloch I thought chana and chicken mix were responsible for that.

The exact information about the Anzas nobody can should present it here in PDF, since its high sensitive for Army air defence.

 

[Krate M]

The exact information about the Anzas nobody can should present it here in PDF, since its high sensitive for Army air defence.

yes but it is now old information so not that sensitive so sometime some ex-armed force people will mention such thing in article, like Kaiser Tufail, he is very nice writer. So if people know this they can share and we can have good debate and understand our armed forces better.

 

[Inception-06]

yes but it is now old information so not that sensitive so sometime some ex-armed force people will mention such thing in article, like Kaiser Tufail, he is very nice writer. So if people know this they can share and we can have good debate and understand our armed forces better.

Than now you have get a lot of information, and if you look back at the battlefield, on which places the Anza could have failed what do think ? In which way ?............My Idea is that on the peaks and hights above 5000m this MANPAD could have a mailfunction, but thats not something new for us, it is well known fact that such sensible weapons can get problems at such hights (The seeker head).

 

[Krate M]

yes especially in may june heat, it is possible to loose the missile by getting it to lock on sun in clear sky.
But given the high altitude, it would have been easier for missile due to increase in envelope and also limitation to the aircraft. Also the type of targets such as mountain tops were not easy for accurate fire power and to accurately target you have to reduce speed. Helicopters would be very easy target for SAMs especially at high altitude due to service ceiling limit. so there are pros and cons.
IAF did not have a huge inventory of LGBs so they used dumb bombs too. They also did strafing and rocket fire for another week, after the may 27 incidents. So either they had a very effective strategy or PA miscalculated the flexibility and environment.

 

[Inception-06]

So either they had a very effective strategy or PA miscalculated the flexibility and environment.

The Idea of Pakistani Generals (Musharraf) was great, we did reach our goal to capture all the heights, to cut the indian supplys, and that with a combination of Paramilitary Forces-NLI, Mujahid-voulanters-Forces. We failed in the military logistics, to maintenance the conquered indian posts, evacuation of injured personall, and disposition of materiel, construction of heavy all weather Bunkers.

Than the operation was not well planed, I say again, this NLI Soldiers had not enjoyed the full professional training of the Pakistan Army also was not equiped so.

And yes you have read Kaisers article about the Pakistani Air Force which was not even informet....so the Idea of the operation was great, but the planing failed totally.


Our media arm was very weak, we failed to sell our demands through a effective public-relation Media campaigne national and international. Promotion of war is very important.

And now imagne if the full Pakistani military would have been involved. And everything would have been planed from HQ level down to the single NLI Soldier, regarding equipment and training. Kargil would have been delcared as a disaster for India, but so the military history for the Pakistan and India resulted in a draw or ended in a tie (Victory can be claimed, but I dont see any for both sides, I hope its Ok for the Indian readers here ^^).

(yes the graphic is from 2002), but it gives a little window of the war-dynamics in Indian-Pakistan conflict.

regards

 

[Juggernautjatt]

During Kargil conflict on 28 may 1999 near about 20 anzas & stingers were fired at Nubra formation of 4 Mi-17s with just one successful hit. In the whole war PA fired good number of Stingers & Anzas but succeeded in only hitting 3 aircrafts.
Although I did not consider anza as a failure because no MANPAD has 100% kill capability as aircrafts have their own defence systems.