Destroy ISI - Indian NSA Advisor

[Kasrkin]

Give Pakistani and international links if you disbelieve Indian ones.

You made a ridiculous claim on a Sunday night and wasted my time and yet you suddenly get coy in backing up what you say because it is Sunday.

Have a great Sunday night!

I am already in Monday!

Bloody hell, I feel like swearing. Whats so ridiculous about this 'claim'? And if some of us have a life does not mean we are 'coy', speaking of which all you had to do was google the words "Taliban Kargil" you'll find a whole lot of Indian articles, but noo you want to waste my time. Here is one for you, and its Indian so that should simplify the fact enough for you THAT THE INDIANS DID CLAIM AFGHAN TALIBAN WERE INVOLVED IN KARGIL.
Pakistan intrusion in Kargil estimated at Brigade-level

But if your aim was to confuse the hell out of everyone by this point-less bickering, without even bothering to TAKE A LOOK at what you were disputing, then I think it worked...However who is the one looking ridiculous now, eh? So very typical....

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The Ambassador was inside the building at the time of the attack.

My bad, but it doesn't really matter - Per the article I posted the Indians believe the intention of the bomber was to get into the compound and blow up the Embassy - which was prevented by the closing of the gates. This would mean that the detonation was premature and the people killed outside were not the target.

So try again.

Every person entering the compound is frisked, and vehicles are stopped and checked at guard posts. Don't you know the standard procedures?

The bombers managed to clear security checks and drive right up to the gates of the embassy. Moreover, they knew exactly when to attack so that they can take out the official.

They can do an inside job of it. Afghans and Indians also claim that the bombers were trained by the ISI, which is also quite likely.

What super secret techniques can the ISI provide that makes explosives in a car "invisible" to the people doing the frisking, if indeed that is what happened?

It is widely acknowledged that their is massive corruption in the Afghan government, and that often Afghan police are sympathetic to the Taliban. There is nothing here that is beyond the purview of what a militant organization with a money can do.

And again, explain how the other instances, like the US Embassy, mentioned were any less "well planned".

Err .. just because the Indians and Afghans claim so doesn't mean squat - as mentioned before, the US, with the most advanced and extensive intelligence apparatus in the region has categorically denied any institutional support from Pakistan. The accusations from India and Afghanistan fit the same old pattern of lies and fabrications.

Now, it is possible that 'rogue agents' were involved, but not institutional support, and at this point their is nothing to show that institutional support was involved.

Very sophisticated. You can't follow an official vehicle into a protected zone without getting stopped and checked a couple of times.

Its not "sophisticated" its called, corruption and bribing people to look the other way. Did the ISI make the car invisible?

Repeatedly typing the word "sophisticated" doesn't make it so, though perhaps in India it does - repeat the lie about the ISI several times and it becomes true for Indians, as seen by the opinions on line at least, and Indians have the temerity to accuse the GoP of brainwashing Pakistanis to have a anti-India prejudice!

Look in your own house first.

 

[Zyxius]

Pakistan has always attributed everything, not only bombing, but every woe at India's doorstep.

I am sure you have seen enough of such a testament on this very forum, including the rather amusing accusation of the poster who has a difficult moniker to remember "Xy- something or the other", who claims to be a Salafi and has lambasted Asim!!, that I am from R&AW! Imagination is not the prerogative of Indians.

Why is it necessary for you to drag me into this when that is clearly not called for? WHy not stick to the subject and answer the "meat" of the issue rather than going into mindless side issues.

And for the record, which everyone can confirm, you are the one who claimed to be from the Indian army and worked on Indian intelligence. I only asked you which agency you worked for since you claimed to be in the biz.

And how have I lambasted Asim? And why does it make you scream "sacrilege!". I'm sure if Asim feels that I have slighted him, which I haven't, he will respond.

Please stick to the issue and don't turn this into another he said she said circus.

 

[Flintlock]

The rights and wrongs, and the facts of this matter all depend on one's partisan position. It is nearly impossible to be objective about an issue like this.

The thing that strikes me in Narayanan's statement is that it is an entirely new note he is striking. It is 'normal' for Indian officials to blame Pakistan for terrorist attacks, but highly unusual to openly call for retaliation at such a high level of government.

Its usually the reigning politicians who play the blame game. But a senior official making these public statement is unusual.

Which is why I am inclined to take his words seriously. India will not want to sabotage the CBMs with Pakistan if it didn't have good reasons to do so.

Also, I doubt very much that Narayanan wouldn't be aware that ISI is in fact not a rogue agency and is in fact an integral part of Pakistan's military apparatus. This is common knowledge among anyone who follows Indian security matters with any degree of interest. I have always felt that there was a kind of mischievous divisive intent on the part of India in setting up this kind of artificial division between 'good Pakistan that we can do business with' and the 'bad ISI that is causing the problem.'

It is a part of Pakistan's military aparatue, but it does not answer to the politicians. It never has. Infact, throughout its history it has tried to influence political events by keeping tabs on politicians and carrying out assassinations.

As an Indian partisan, I hope that this division has the effectm which I think is intended--whenever Pakistan is ultimately persuaded to relinquish its warfare against India, it can save face by pointing to the 'bad' ISI that caused all the trouble. In turn, this kind of distinction also provides maneuvring space domestically within India, when the government is faced with explaining why it is making peace with an enemy that is bent on destroying it. After all, it was never the fault of 'Pakistan' but that of ISI.

That is also possible, but lets not forget that the ISI has been known to act independently in the past. The ex-head of ISI, I remember, said so himself in an interview with the BBC.

I am quite convinced that the civilian leaders are not playing a double game. They are incapable of doing so. They can't even manage their own affairs, forget about executing such "conspiracies" flawlessly.

So, Narayanan may be telling a well-thought out lie when he blames the ISI and paints it as a rogue. Calling for its 'destruction' is meant to send some sort of signal to Pakistan that it can expect things to escalate.

I have no clue what "signal" he is trying to send. Lets remember that he too is a human being. He was probably very upset by what happened, and his I daresay that he was simply speaking his mind during that press conference with no ulterior motives.

Or it could all just be a bluff, just to get Pakistan all nervous and upset.

In any case, I would agree with the poster who said Narayanan is no fool, and knows what he is doing/saying.

I agree too. The guy has is known to be a very effective and competent man. I doubt that he would simply hurl accusations without any thought.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

That is also possible, but lets not forget that the ISI has been known to act independently in the past.

In the past - it has been under the control of Musharraf and Musharraf loyalists for quite some time now.

 

[Vinod2070]

AM, your arguments have been stoic and well presented.

I must compliment you for the way you have put up the spirited arguments. The only thing is that much of what is being discussed is kind of subjective. We have some facts here but no smoking gun.

Every party is basing their conclusions based on the convictions they have. It is difficult to "prove" anything at least enough to change someone's mind who won't be easily convinced and believe they have a history to go by.

BTW, I do see you losing your cool a bit more often now!

Stirred but not shaken I hope.

 

[Flintlock]

^^^I think you mean "shaken, but not stirred".

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

India has been no different, and that does not take away from the holes in India's argument in this particular case.


Why was there any timing involved? Why not sheer luck? One would think that if any particular staff were to be targeted then the ambassador and his deputy, neither of whom was at the entrance, would be the ones being targeted.

In fact one of the links mentioned indicates that Indian sources believe that the Embassy structure itself was being targeted, and the bomber detonated prematurely, so that too shoots down the "precision timing" argument.

Going by the details from some of your own people, the suspects were following behind an Embassy vehicle, that is not "sophistication" but "opportunity".

Join in the rubbish analysis Salim - none of you have shown how this attack is any more sophisticated or better planned than any of the others mentioned.

Merely typing "sophisticated and well planned" repeatedly does not make it so, except in India's book apparently, which is the rubbish it has been spewing all these years against the ISI anyway.

Try answering some of the questions I posed in detail.

I was alluding to your comment that Indians alone lap up gobbledygooks.

In any operation, be it military or terrorist, it has to be planned. Luck is not a factor that is banked on. That is obvious. In this instant case, you claim that the car was followed. Therefore, there is no reason to give Lady Luck any undue thanks.

When you tail a person, if you are discovered, then you are pretty useless in your profession. That is what makes the whole operation highly professionally executed. Pastuns village yokels are beyond such sophistication. That is what makes the whole issue very professionally sinister. And that is not rubbish, Zain.

I have not gone through your points since you are all over the thread.
Do summarise in one post and I shall try to answer as well as I can.

Since the people feel you are James and so all this shaken and stirred, may I recommend that you go an have a Mocktail?

 

[Vinod2070]

^^^I think you mean "shaken, but not stirred".

Not sure which.

I tend to get this one wrong. So I wrote the opposite of what came to my mind and still managed to get it wrong!

 

[GHATAK]

Link

NDTV.com: India may send more ITBP personnel

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

^^^I think you mean "shaken, but not stirred".

Though the accurate quote is indeed "shaken, not stirred" - I am "stirred, not yet shaken".

Stirred, in the sense that it is a let down to have people with whom I have had deeply intellectual exchanges on religion and other issues, fall for the media's verbiage of "highly sophisticated and well planned", and continue parroting that line as gospel without any clue as to what makes the embassy attack so much more "sophisticated and well planned" than the attacks on the Green Zone in Baghdad, the US embassy in Kabul, the repeated attacks on the ISI in the garrison city of Rawalpindi, the attack on the highest ranking PA officer to be martyred as of now - the Surgeon General of the PA, the attack on the SSG headquarters, and the list goes on...

Salim,

You don't have to go through all the posts, just read my last four or five posts on this thread.

 

[Vinod2070]

Though the accurate quote is indeed "shaken, not stirred" - I am "stirred, not yet shaken".

Stirred, in the sense that it is a let down to have people with whom I have had deeply intellectual exchanges on religion and other issues, fall for the media's verbiage of "highly sophisticated and well planned", and continue parroting that line as gospel without any clue as to what makes the embassy attack so much more "sophisticated and well planned" than the attacks on the Green Zone in Baghdad, the US embassy in Kabul, the repeated attacks on the ISI in the garrison city of Rawalpindi, the attack on the highest ranking PA officer to be martyred as of now - the Surgeon General of the PA, the attack on the SSG headquarters, and the list goes on...

Salim,

You don't have to go through all the posts, just read my last four or five posts on this thread.

AM, Let me remind you of the Jiye Sindh thread:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...8886-india-again-tries-ignite-jiye-sindh.html

Many Pakistani members got all riled up with the "news". Were there any people killed? Any attack on Pakistan?

No, just a few words and next you see was mountain made out of the molehill (Til ka taad).

Here, we have an attack on Indian embassy. More than 40 human beings killed. It is bound to stir up emotions.

May be the Indian member's reaction will seem as logical to you as the Pakistani member's reaction was to the Jiye Sindh news to many Indian members.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

AM, Let me remind you of the Jiye Sindh thread:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...8886-india-again-tries-ignite-jiye-sindh.html

Many Pakistani members got all riled up with the "news". Were there any people killed? Any attack on Pakistan?

No, just a few words and next you see was mountain made out of the molehill (Til ka taad).

Here, we have an attack on Indian embassy. More than 40 human beings killed. It is bound to stir up emotions.

May be the Indian member's reaction will seem as logical to you as the Pakistani member's reaction was to the Jiye Sindh news to many Indian members.

Vinod:

Getting riled up over some news is one thing, refusing to see that there is no argument to be made another.

Since you have mentioned it, I'll bracket you with those Pakistanis you mentioned..

 

[Vinod2070]

Vinod:

Getting riled up over some news is one thing, refusing to see that there is no argument to be made another.

And that is precisely what happened in that thread.

Since you have mentioned it, I'll bracket you with those Pakistanis you mentioned..

Not a problem. Since those luminaries included the very best of the Pakistani members.

 

[Flintlock]