Despite shortcomings, PN is no pushover!

[Safriz]

Is that a joke?

Capability to hit targets at sea is the primary role/function of a sub since they came in to being .... I was hinting at more advanced contemporary and future roles

While I do not understand your point
I was saying that the capability of hitting targets at sea has been mentioned for both Babur 2 and raad 2 in official ISPR press releases.
So as things stand now and going by ISPR official stance Babur 2 can be classified as Pakistan's longest range anti ship missile

 

[Thorough Pro]

my bad. I misunderstood. thought it said the subs have to capability to hit sea targets.

While I do not understand your point
I was saying that the capability of hitting targets at sea has been mentioned for both Babur 2 and raad 2 in official ISPR press releases.
So as things stand now and going by ISPR official stance Babur 2 can be classified as Pakistan's longest range anti ship missile

 

[Safriz]

my bad. I misunderstood. thought it said the subs have to capability to hit sea targets.

Yes the Hunter killer is primary role of our Submarines, but Pakistan wants to do everything "Sastay mein" ..and the "Sastay wala" method is to fire a few long range home made anti ship missiles...
lag gaey tou lag gaey..nahii lagey tou agli baar sahi

 

[Thorough Pro]

Nopes. you probably don't know, and I can't tell.

Yes the Hunter killer is primary role of our Submarines, but Pakistan wants to do everything "Sastay mein" ..and the "Sastay wala" method is to fire a few long range home made anti ship missiles...
lag gaey tou lag gaey..nahii lagey tou agli baar sahi

 

[Safriz]

Nopes. you probably don't know, and I can't tell.

No I don't know and I don't want anyone to reveal national secrets
But I can guess that both Babur 2 and raad 2 have data link and in anti ship mode can be fitted with appropriate seekers

 

[Khafee]

Is that a joke?

Capability to hit targets at sea is the primary role/function of a sub since they came in to being .... I was hinting at more advanced contemporary and future roles

NO they are not. We are getting two different types and for some very good reasons and very good capabilities.

Sir, It seems, you missed the following post:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/despite-shortcomings-pn-is-no-pushover.608731/#post-11291804

But we need these ships ASAP

On emergency basis, leasing can do wonders

 

[New World]

On emergency basis, leasing can do wonders

if indian randi rona did not stop after election, world might see lots of surprises..

 

[Khafee]

if indian randi rona did not stop after election, world might see lots of surprises..

for them, Pakistan is a convenient scapegoat. One, that cannot be questioned.

 

[New World]

for them, Pakistan is a convenient scapegoat. One, that cannot be questioned.

if they did not retrospect things then they will have to pay heavy price for that. The severe one.

 

[Zarvan]

I am really hoping that submarines we are buying from China have this kind of firepower. If they do trust me Indian Navy and their Naval bases far away from our seas.

 

[Khafee]

I am really hoping that submarines we are buying from China have this kind of firepower. If they do trust me Indian Navy and their Naval bases far away from our seas.

InShaAllah better than this.

 

[JamD]

The US military developed an anti-ship version of their tomahawk CM (which has a ridiculous range as well know). This version was withdrawn from service in 1994. The anti-ship tomahawk was only recently "re-inducted" as the block-IV, which boasts anti-ship capability in addition to all the other things it can do. The reason for this is simple and something that a lot of these discussions miss.

Yes you have a weapon that can travel 2500 km but can you track your target at those ranges? Will you accidentally hit a merchant ship? Even the US didn't feel it was confident enough in its targeting capability. Only recently has their satellite coverage and image processing ability reached the level where they can find and target naval vessels using weapons with long ranges.

So when we talk about PN's CM arsenal we shouldn't obsess over ranges. Our ranges are already much further than what we can detect. As I understand, the Chinese help us out with satellite imagery but I don't know how sustainable of a model that is. We need satellites that monitor our area of operations. Then we need powerful image processing farms that can search through the satellite data and identify targets for us. All of this needs to happen in near real-time. As you can imagine this is VERY hard, but not impossible.

Here's a research group at IST doing research in something similar:
https://ivisioneeist.wixsite.com/ivision/projects

 

[Safriz]

The US military developed an anti-ship version of their tomahawk CM (which has a ridiculous range as well know). This version was withdrawn from service in 1994. The anti-ship tomahawk was only recently "re-inducted" as the block-IV, which boasts anti-ship capability in addition to all the other things it can do. The reason for this is simple and something that a lot of these discussions miss.

Yes you have a weapon that can travel 2500 km but can you track your target at those ranges? Will you accidentally hit a merchant ship? Even the US didn't feel it was confident enough in its targeting capability. Only recently has their satellite coverage and image processing ability reached the level where they can find and target naval vessels using weapons with long ranges.

So when we talk about PN's CM arsenal we shouldn't obsess over ranges. Our ranges are already much further than what we can detect. As I understand, the Chinese help us out with satellite imagery but I don't know how sustainable of a model that is. We need satellites that monitor our area of operations. Then we need powerful image processing farms that can search through the satellite data and identify targets for us. All of this needs to happen in near real-time. As you can imagine this is VERY hard, but not impossible.

Here's a research group at IST doing research in something similar:
https://ivisioneeist.wixsite.com/ivision/projects
View attachment 547920

750 is not ridiculously long range. Data link was not available in 1994 when long range tomahawk anti ship had to be withdrawn
Today Pakistan has enough assets to track ships at 450+ km range .
You don't have to use your missiles at maximum range Babur can be used at 450 km from AWACS
It's a ground fired version An AWACS flying further out at sea can guide it to full range

 

[JamD]

750 is not ridiculously long range. Data link was not available in 1994 when long range tomahawk anti ship had to be withdrawn
Today Pakistan has enough assets to track ships at 450+ km range .
You don't have to use your missiles at maximum range Babur can be used at 450 km from AWACS
It's a ground fired version An AWACS flying further out at sea can guide it to full range

Nice idea. Not practical. The problem with that is that AEW assets are very valuable and are not operated on front lines but from within the safety of your territory.

The point is this: The reach of our weapons is already beyond the reach of our sensors. We should be focusing on the sensor part. Sensors dont make for nice videos and explosions but are equally, if not more important.

Of course sensors don't necessarily have to be satellites only. China has been experimenting with UAVs that fly at much higher altitudes than conventional AEW aircraft. They could possibly be a solution to looking out further into the sea. Not sure which is the cheaper route.

 

[Safriz]

Nice idea. Not practical. The problem with that is that AEW assets are very valuable and are not operated on front lines but from within the safety of your territory.

The point is this: The reach of our weapons is already beyond the reach of our sensors. We should be focusing on the sensor part. Sensors dont make for nice videos and explosions but are equally, if not more important.

Of course sensors don't necessarily have to be satellites only. China has been experimenting with UAVs that fly at much higher altitudes than conventional AEW aircraft. They could possibly be a solution to looking out further into the sea. Not sure which is the cheaper route.

ZDK-03 are deployed at masroor base and for a reason