Denouncing Indira Gandhi

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

So far only one Indian, InExile, has denounced the hatred of Indira Gandhi for Pakistan.

Surely the rest of you Indians that come running to protest that Pakistanis are paranoid for thinking India has not accepted Pakistan can see the need to denounce these statements and her ideology towards Pakistan.

Show us through actions, not merely words, that what you say is more than a canard and deceit.

Let me post the most offensive material, that I think Indians need to denounce, if they truly believe in peace with Pakistan and accepting it:

’’ Neither Baluchistan nor the Northwest Frontier properly belonged to Pakistan, she told Kissinger and President Nixon. They too wanted and deserved greater autonomy; they should never have been part of the original (partition) settlement and were among the “ congenital defects ’’of Pakistan


Kissinger:"I myself heard her say that the NWFP really belongs to India, and there is no way to get to them except through the Punjab."


"Indira Gandhi at a public meeting on Nov, 30, 1970 observed, “India has never reconciled with the existence of Pakistan, Indian leaders always believed that Pakistan should not have been created and that Pakistan nation has no right exist”.

Sources:
1. The White House years, by Henry Kissinger
2.


http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB193/HAK%202-26-76.pdf

Page 27 of the above document.

3. The India Doctrine, by MBI Munshi

 

[Nemesis]

These are all based on hearsay. Please provide an actual quote and not what Kissinger might have heard her say or what someone might have observed her to say.

Edit: Where is that last quote taken from?

 

[ironman]

^^^ From an Epic by one of our beloved member..

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

These are all based on hearsay. Please provide an actual quote and not what Kissinger might have heard her say or what someone might have observed her to say.

Edit: Where is that last quote taken from?

Since she is dead, technically everything is based on 'heresay'.

Kissinger and others could be lying and fabricating (for whatever reason) I suppose, but what is more important is toi denounce the comments and the ideology they represent.

If at some point in the future they are shown to be incorrect, then IG will stand exonorated, but the ideology represented by the comments will remain condemnable - at least for those Indians who claim 'peace with, and acceptance of, Pakistan'.

So go ahead and condemn the comments, and Indira Gandhi for making them, with the caveat of 'if she did indeed make them' if you so desire. The latter is what InExile did.

 

[Goodperson]

Interesting topic but need to educate rest of the Indians about Indira Gandhi's so called thought process please provide the link that will help.
Anyway Indra Gandhi's party is in power and soon going to grab power in three states of India.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Interesting topic but need to educate rest of the Indians about Indira Gandhi's so called thought process please provide the link that will help.
Anyway Indra Gandhi's party is in power and soon going to grab power in three states of India.

I am not sure I understand - are you suggesting that the Indian Congress party and some, if nt all, of its leadership still adheres to the philosophy represented by Indira Gandhi's comments?

As for educating Indians about Indira Gandhi's views towards Pakistan and of Pakistan, yes, I agree. Which is why I am attempting to use the platform of this forum to do just that, and hopefully some among you will carry the message to other Indians.

 

[Goodperson]

I am not sure I understand - are you suggesting that the Indian Congress party and some, if nt all, of its leadership still adheres to the philosophy represented by Indira Gandhi's comments?

Congress (I) was formed in in 1977 by loyalist of Indira Gandhi. Congress (I) nowa days is refered as Congress which more or less abides by Indira Gandhi's Philosophies of-course they are evolving with time..

As for educating Indians about Indira Gandhi's views towards Pakistan and of Pakistan, yes, I agree. Which is why I am attempting to use the platform of this forum to do just that, and hopefully some among you will carry the message to other Indians.

Your does not seem to have source and one has to see the context.
Indira Gandhi was a great leader of yesterdays but she is not revered much as Nehru or Mahatma Gandhi.
Most of Indians in general do not have own view on Pakistan except for Terrorist attacks and Indo Pak wars. Otherwise they are oblivious to Pakistan.
Your article with source will only serve as amusement to them.

 

[InExile]

I did not denounce Indira Gandhi, to clarify the matter. I also said I thought she was overall a good leader. What I said was that I 'disagreed' with her if she actually said this. Disagree does not mean denounce. Like a poster said above, it might be hearsay. But I disagree strongly with this kind of sentiment, Pakistan has as much of a right to exist as India does

"Indira Gandhi at a public meeting on Nov, 30, 1970 observed, “India has never reconciled with the existence of Pakistan, Indian leaders always believed that Pakistan should not have been created and that Pakistan nation has no right exist”.

 

[PlanetWarrior]

I am not sure I understand - are you suggesting that the Indian Congress party and some, if nt all, of its leadership still adheres to the philosophy represented by Indira Gandhi's comments?

As for educating Indians about Indira Gandhi's views towards Pakistan and of Pakistan, yes, I agree. Which is why I am attempting to use the platform of this forum to do just that, and hopefully some among you will carry the message to other Indians.

Indira Gandhi tried too quickly within too short space of time to inpose India's dominance in the sub continent. If she did make those comments about Pakistan then most Indians including Congress supporters would be shocked and repulsed I am sure as most Indians during her time accepted Pakistan as an independent nation. Much has changed since her time in both Pakistan and India. I as an Indian passport holder cannot believe that she would make those comments but if she did do so then it was in bad taste and unacceptable

 

[toxic_pus]

These are all based on hearsay. Please provide an actual quote and not what Kissinger might have heard her say or what someone might have observed her to say.

Edit: Where is that last quote taken from?

The original comments, except for the 30th Nov, 1970 speech, were taken from Dr Henry Kissinger's The White House Years. Apparently she had said those words on 4th Nov, 1971 at a meeting with Mr Nixon. Dr Kissinger and P.N. Haskar were the only other persons present. The relevant portions are:

Her father, she averred, had been blamed for accepting partition. And there was an element of truth, she said, in the often heard charge that India had been brought into being by leaders of an indigenous independence movement while Pakistan had been formed by British collaborators who, as soon as they became “independent,” proceeded to imprison the authentic fighters for independence. Pakistan was a jerrybuilt structure held together by its hatred for India, which was being stoked by each new generation of Pakistani leaders. Conditions in East Pakistan reflected tendencies applicable to all of Pakistan. Neither Baluchistan nor the Northwest frontier properly belonged to Pakistan; they too wanted and deserved greater autonomy; they should never have been part of the original settlement.

....

Mrs. Gandhi stressed the congenital defects of Pakistan so insistently that she implied that confining her demands to the secession of East Pakistan amounted to Indian restraint; the continued existence of West Pakistan reflected Indian forbearance.

The same conversation is recorded in FRUS, Vol XI, South Asia, 1969-1976 as:

Prime Minister Gandhi observed that many harbor the feeling that her father had let the country down by accepting the partitioning along the lines ultimately reached. Nevertheless, once the decision had been taken it had been accepted. But the partitioning generated a persistent “hate India” campaign which resulted in the conflicts of 1947 and 1965……Following India’s independence, it was the leaders of the independence movement who formed India’s government. On the other hand, in Pakistan it was the loyalist or pro-British factions which formed Pakistan’s government. Pakistan proceeded to imprison or exile leaders of the independence movement. Baluchistan, as well as the provinces along the northwest frontier, has a strong desire for greater autonomy.

There has been, therefore, a long history of separatist policies in Pakistan which heretofore has not necessarily been supported in India. Yahya was mistaken in trying to suppress Mujib. India, on the other hand, has always reflected a degree of forebearance toward its own separatist elements. The pattern has been clear. West Pakistan has dealt with the Bengali people in a treacherous and deceitful way and has always relegated them to an inferior role. As the situation worsened, India attempted to ameliorate it by maintaining communication with all the parties.

The truth lies somewhere in between. Although she may never have said anything exactly like what Dr Kissinger had narrated, I personally believe that Dr Kissinger was narrating the lines in between.

EDIT: The 'congenital defect' appears to be entirely Dr Kissinger's observation. Not Ms Gandhi's.

 

[R.A.W.]

I dont think that there is anything wrong with the Pakistanis hating the Iron lady of India. If she were too be Pakistani and would have done same to India we would have been hating her.


But if you look by the Indian perspective it was her rule that we got one of the biggest military and diplomatic victory in east Pakistan. And so she is considered as the iron lady of India

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I dont think that there is anything wrong with the Pakistanis hating the Iron lady of India. If she were too be Pakistani and would have done same to India we would have been hating her.


But if you look by the Indian perspective it was her rule that we got one of the biggest military and diplomatic victory in east Pakistan. And so she is considered as the iron lady of India

Hating Indira Gandhi is not the point of the thread, denouncing her views and comments pasted here is.

InExile - disagreeing with her comments is not necessarily enough. One can disagree with another individual's comments supporting racism, or one can disagree and denounce.

Given the repugnance of her comments, Indians in favor of peace with, and acceptance of, Pakistan should denounce and disagree.

 

[Goodperson]

Hating Indira Gandhi is not the point of the thread, denouncing her views and comments pasted here is.

InExile - disagreeing with her comments is not necessarily enough. One can disagree with another individual's comments supporting racism, or one can disagree and denounce.

Given the repugnance of her comments, Indians in favor of peace with, and acceptance of, Pakistan should denounce and disagree.

I guess you must be referring to "India Doctrine" book by India basher MBI Munshi.

Even if true she made comments prior to 1971 see the atrocities committed on Bangladeshis. One should see the context.

 

[PeacefulIndian]

So far only one Indian, InExile, has denounced the hatred of Indira Gandhi for Pakistan.

Surely the rest of you Indians that come running to protest that Pakistanis are paranoid for thinking India has not accepted Pakistan can see the need to denounce these statements and her ideology towards Pakistan.

Show us through actions, not merely words, that what you say is more than a canard and deceit.

Let me post the most offensive material, that I think Indians need to denounce, if they truly believe in peace with Pakistan and accepting it:

’’ Neither Baluchistan nor the Northwest Frontier properly belonged to Pakistan, she told Kissinger and President Nixon. They too wanted and deserved greater autonomy; they should never have been part of the original (partition) settlement and were among the “ congenital defects ’’of Pakistan


Kissinger:"I myself heard her say that the NWFP really belongs to India, and there is no way to get to them except through the Punjab."


"Indira Gandhi at a public meeting on Nov, 30, 1970 observed, “India has never reconciled with the existence of Pakistan, Indian leaders always believed that Pakistan should not have been created and that Pakistan nation has no right exist”.

It is not very uncommon for Heads of States to have such views about a country which historically has been antagonistic to their own. It should be noted that the views are bound by time & should be considered only under the circumstances which prevailed then.

The part about Balochistan & NWFP, IMO, was an attempt to create Kashmir like situation in those two provinces, thereby making them disputed territories. Just like what Pakistan has been doing all along in Kashmir. Obviously that did not work out, but she did what she thought was right at that moment.

From an Indian point of view, there is no need to denounce her views, only because you think so. By those standards, we should be denouncing the creation of BD as well, but we don't, for obvious reasons.

Besides, if you look at your own backyard, did Gen Zia have an official policy of bleeding India to death with 1000 cuts? Do you denounce that?

 

[PostColonial]

I agree with the first statement. Both Balochistan and NWFP have very tenuous links with the "Indian civilization", and as such are closer to Iran and Afghanistan respectively.
Pakistan ideally should not have included these two provinces. Unfortunately, the British conquest of Afghanistan only managed to capture these regions, thus splitting the old Durrani empire along artificial lines.