Democratic system and Pakistan

[Irfan Baloch]

well yes,but if we apply such scenario on Pakistan,so I think that a team from best military minds and from civil sectors must be made,and this committee must be given responsibility to choose best people of high reputation for ministry,the ministry must consists of think-tanks of all four provinces and different sectors of army and other important civil sectors,and together as one,they choose their leader,who has no relation with any political party.
while in case of ministers they can extract people like Musltufa Kemal,and appoint them for desired locations.
What do you think?
Best regards

Slav Defence

I recommend unity of command
the leader listens to his advisers but has the power and confidence of taking the decision.
popular decisions are easy to make
its the harder ones that dont look very favourable but are needed for the long term well being that need a credible and capable leadership which people are willing to follow and believe.

china seems to be working fine under a single chairman and single party

 

[Slav Defence]

I recommend unity of command
the leader listens to his advisers but has the power and confidence of taking the decision.
popular decisions are easy to make
its the harder ones that dont look very favourable but are needed for the long term well being that need a credible and capable leadership which people are willing to follow and believe.

china seems to be working fine under a single chairman and single party

There is another lacking in our infra-structure,we don't have proper team of think -tanks,I feel that ISI tried to fill that but their political wing was closed 'officially'
Yes,leader only listens to his advisers and make decision of his own,but we should keep in mind about the importance of advisers,take example of Mr.Musharraf,what a fine man of great leadership qualities but was too unlucky in case of advisers,this is what I feel.
So,we should apply leadership system in such a way,that a team of best minds and fine mindsets must be selected as a committee just like Islamic welfare system,and then this committee must choose leader and ministers on the basis of their expertise and reputation,and a leader can take advice from that committee only,like that of majlis e shura rather then some non-professional party people.

Best regards
Slav Defence

 

[Major Sam]

Yes,the main point is,that if we think an Islamic welfare system best,then how?by Islamic system first of all,I didn't mean to say that let mullahs rule us sir,by this system I meant to say that it is much better like of past if power of selection is transferred to a committee of honest people,but still I don't find it possible,that is why I have left this case on Intellects like you and other think tanks.
As it is cleared that democracy ie giving authority to people of Pakistan is a bad idea,but if we think that this power should be transferred to a specific committee of sincere mindsets as that of Islamic system then how?in such situation?

Best regards,
Slav defence

but isn't in islamic welfare system minorities have more rights than muslims themself so that they will not feel we are dominating them. as first rule in islam is to make your self example for other non believers by making your character ideal or close to that one as described by islam. honest, truthful and generous person.

why in our case we always put islamic country only mean is no place for minorities? why we have such confusion in our mind?

@Slav Defence

 

[Kompromat]

@Irfan Baloch

Thank you Irfan bhai for your comments.

You see the idea i wrote in the post @Slav Defence has quoted , is not simple by any means if we were to implement it. Here are a few Bullet points.

* A state should be democratic with free and fair elections.

* A state has to be egalitarian/inclusive - and must recognize and foster all cultures/languages/religions.

* A state has to be a 'Majoritist Democracy' - Which means that there should be a bar to how much % of votes have to be won in order to form a govt, no less than 60%.

* A state should take care of its minorities, recognize their faith/ethnicities etc but at the same time the 'majority' should not be made to submit their demands to appease the minority, which is why i gave the example of S.Africa,Zimbabwe Apartheid, Syria, Afghanistan and you added Bahrain to that list.

My idea is that the democracy is majoritist by nature and by no means, seduces minorities and does not exist as a system at their expense. I believe that all minorities should get the share of power 'according to their population percentage.'

For instance we can open up the seat of the President for a non Muslim while Prime Minister has to be a Muslim candidate, this is how we create a balance where 2 non Muslims are not running a Muslim country and 2 Muslims are not ALWAYS running a country with minorities.

Lastly, Irfan Bhai, we don't need to worry about Arabs or Persians - We are a 'Unique' state, perhaps 'the most multicultural Muslim state in the world' - The Arab-o-Persian political dynamics are irrelevant for us because they are totally based on their race and creed, which by design we are unable to replicate because we are Punjabis,Pathans,Sindhis,Baloch,Hazaras,Mohajirs, Kashmiris,Gilgatis,Baltistanis,Swatis, so on and so forth.

My only concern is that we need to forge a Pakistani identity in the next 50 years, and that identity has to be democratic,it has to be Muslim, and at the same time it has to be egalitarian in regards to ethic & religious minorities. I firmly believe that this work is ours to do and there are some nations which can provide us with some inspiration, one of them is Malaysia.

@Slav Defence - Great work, keep it up - Shabash!

 

[Slav Defence]

but isn't in islamic welfare system minorities have more rights than muslims themself so that they will not feel we are dominating them. as first rule in islam is to make your self example for other non believers by making your character ideal or close to that one as described by islam. honest, truthful and generous person.

why in our case we always put islamic country only mean is no place for minorities? why we have such confusion in our mind?

@Slav Defence

Because my dear Sam,we have our own versions of Islam,we are not following the actual Islam,in our pseudo versions which we consider is right,we are told that there is no place for 'kaafir'.
For we have a lapse for understanding Islam that is why our actions are reciprocal/contrary to actual version of Islam.

Best Regards,
Slav Defence

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Because my dear Sam,we have our own versions of Islam,we are not following the actual Islam,in our pseudo versions which we consider is right,we are told that there is no place for 'kaafir'.
For we have a lapse for understanding Islam that is why our actions are reciprocal/contrary to actual version of Islam.

Best Regards,
Slav Defence

see the new funny episode in Islamabad where a guy decided to block traffic and fire in the air with 2 guns to establish Islam and banish vulgarity

 

[Slav Defence]

@Irfan Baloch

Thank you Irfan bhai for your comments.

You see the idea i wrote in the post @Slav Defence has quoted , is not simple by any means if we were to implement it. Here are a few Bullet points.

* A state should be democratic with free and fair elections.

* A state has to be egalitarian/inclusive - and must recognize and foster all cultures/languages/religions.

* A state has to be a 'Majoritist Democracy' - Which means that there should be a bar to how much % of votes have to be won in order to form a govt, no less than 60%.

* A state should take care of its minorities, recognize their faith/ethnicities etc but at the same time the 'majority' should not be made to submit their demands to appease the minority, which is why i gave the example of S.Africa,Zimbabwe Apartheid, Syria, Afghanistan and you added Bahrain to that list.

My idea is that the democracy is majoritist by nature and by no means, seduces minorities and does not exist as a system at their expense. I believe that all minorities should get the share of power 'according to their population percentage.'

For instance we can open up the seat of the President for a non Muslim while Prime Minister has to be a Muslim candidate, this is how we create a balance where 2 non Muslims are not running a Muslim country and 2 Muslims are not ALWAYS running a country with minorities.

Lastly, Irfan Bhai, we don't need to worry about Arabs or Persians - We are a 'Unique' state, perhaps 'the most multicultural Muslim state in the world' - The Arab-o-Persian political dynamics are irrelevant for us because they are totally based on their race and creed, which by design we are unable to replicate because we are Punjabis,Pathans,Sindhis,Baloch,Hazaras,Mohajirs, Kashmiris,Gilgatis,Baltistanis,Swatis, so on and so forth.

My only concern is that we need to forge a Pakistani identity in the next 50 years, and that identity has to be democratic,it has to be Muslim, and at the same time it has to be egalitarian in regards to ethic & religious minorities. I firmly believe that this work is ours to do and there are some nations which can provide us with some inspiration, one of them is Malaysia.

@Slav Defence - Great work, keep it up - Shabash!

@Aeronaut Thank you so much for motivation like last hope...


The objective of my opening of this thread was,first of all:

--To discuss the democratic system
--To enhance the suggestions given by you.
--To modify the idea.
--Then seeing @nulcearpak's suggestion,I have decided to open an alternative thread in which we will discuss the finalized shape of system,which I will represent by combining postulates introduced by you @Irfan Baloch and me Inshallah



Extraction and Modification:


Written By: Slav Defence

Now,let us come to your points,I have few questions regarding to your point:

As you said perfectly that democracy is majoritist by nature,that clarifies one fact very well,that dominion of majority is not actually a successful system.

-A successful system is where such mindsets can dominate who deserve to lead.

So,if we apply your analogy in Pakistani democratic infrastructure,we will find out more then 60% of majority is not eligible to make decision for selection of it's leader.

-Now you purpose,that if Pakistan must have president who should be non-muslim,and prime-minster who should be muslim.
-As you propose the Lebanese infra-structure for Pakistan,I find it quite impossible,because of:
>Rate of extremism in Pakistan is greater.
>We all are evident that muslims are not even ready to tolerate each other's minor sect difference,how can they tolerate a 'Non-Muslim' as their president?
-A country where people are so conservative and extremist that they labelled liberals as atheist and you think that President can become non-muslim?
-Seeing yesterday's incident,we see the demand of specific mindset,that man proposed Islamic shariya system.

Not this man,but majority proposes an Islamic system,where justice must be easily approached,everyone is frustrated of current system,I am not supporting his actions,in fact I am first who is condemning it,what I am doing that I have just extracted his proposal,kindly do not misunderstand my intention.

So on real grounds,we need to change a shape of your points.

--I believe that @Irfan Baloch's idea should be added as well,yes we need some extract from Chinese infra-structure.

So after combining your analysis and postulates and of Mr.Baloch,I have extracted following.

Postulate:

--The president and Prime minster will remain Muslims.
--Minorities will be provided 1/4 of seats in senate and Parliament,so that they can defend their rights.
--The ministry of minority will be given responsibility to provide safeguards to their public,they will be given authority to take any necessary measures for defense and security of their public.
--Minorities will be given freedom of speech,practicing their religion etc.
--Media must be restricted and refrained for spreading any such content which may result to crisis such as argument b/w minorities,or two sects of same religion.
--Instead of ECP,let us replace it with SCP (Selection Commission Of Pakistan)

My Proposal:

Objectives of SEP:

Selection Commission Of Pakistan(SCP)


--SCP will be divided into four wings.:


(1)Federal wing
(2)Providential wing
(3)Military wing
(4)Think-Tank wing

Federal Wing:

The wing will be responsible for selection of President and Prime minster of Pakistan

Provincial wing:

The provincial wing will be responsible for selection and hiring of minsters of provinces,How the system will work?

The system will work in such a way,that Candidates will approach for proper examination and viva,if they succeed then they will be short listed and selected,if loose ,they they will be shown an exit door.Election amongst public will not take place.

Military wing:

The military wing will be responsible for checking of all the past record of candidates,intersted,where as their prime task will also be to check and introduce other candidates,who didn't approached SEC,but due to great reputation,they can hire them,if candidates approached are not of good quality.

Think-Tank


Class of advisories to lead them,consists of reputed Directors as members of all four wings,additional team of IB and ISI as well for enhancing proposing better policies,they will lead,plan and decide where as they will also be responsible to advise presidents.
@Last Hope @Luftwaffe @Oscar @Aeronaut @Irfan Baloch @nuclearpak and others..do you agree with my proposed infra-structure?

Best Regards,
Slav Defence

see the new funny episode in Islamabad where a guy decided to block traffic and fire in the air with 2 guns to establish Islam and banish vulgarity

Yes I am evident of yesterday's frustration and stupidity,but if we don't work out to change system then we should be ready to see more vulgarity and abuse of Islam.
People already see 'kaafirs' everywhere and current 'kaafirana roman system' is biggest reason of their frustration,as this 'kufr' is not even benefiting them in Earth!

Best Regards,
Slav Defence

 

[Gufi]

Democracy can be ideal for Pakistan when:

the issues you raised are important. Add caste system voting, longer terms in office and a fall safe caused by provincial bickering, and specific demands for specific ministries with minimum experience in the given field.

 

[Shah01]

Very good post Slav Defence and I have learned something new today.

I am not sure where to start but no system will work if the nation as a whole is party to all sorts of ills (bribery, corruption, dishonesty, injustice etc). Don't want to derail the thread but I would say start resolving the following issues: It does not matter what method is used.

Education: The main problem is lack of education/knowledge be it religious or non religious. Educate the next generation in both religious and non religious studies otherwise we will be standing at the same crossroads 50 years down the line.

Judiciary: Absence of justice. This is the main and the biggest cause of frustration. A working judiciary system can reduce the ills in a very short time.

Police: Police officers roam like kings rather then serve the people. No accountability.

Land reforms: A corrupt ancient system should be abolished. Adopt a computerized system.

I would ask one question: how do you insure that the four wings are selecting people fairly and on merit and there is no corruption and bribery?

 

[batmannow]

True democracy starts with the municipal

True democracy starts with the municipal - The Globe and Mail


and also

Local government system news and updates

True democracy starts with the municipal

True democracy starts with the municipal - The Globe and Mail


and also

Local government system news and updates

true democracy starts with a democratic mind set & society
With out that, we only can reach at damocrazy?

well yes,but if we apply such scenario on Pakistan,so I think that a team from best military minds and from civil sectors must be made,and this committee must be given responsibility to choose best people of high reputation for ministry,the ministry must consists of think-tanks of all four provinces and different sectors of army and other important civil sectors,and together as one,they choose their leader,who has no relation with any political party.
while in case of ministers they can extract people like Musltufa Kemal,and appoint them for desired locations.
What do you think?
Best regards

Slav Defence

Sorry but we need a complete system, which has the ability to find every mustafa kamal,s of this nation?
Instead going for some other copy paste.

I recommend unity of command
the leader listens to his advisers but has the power and confidence of taking the decision.
popular decisions are easy to make
its the harder ones that dont look very favourable but are needed for the long term well being that need a credible and capable leadership which people are willing to follow and believe.

china seems to be working fine under a single chairman and single party

I agree in principle, with your example of create China.
But we need a constant rotation in that chain of command too?

 

[Slav Defence]

Very good post Slav Defence and I have learned something new today.

I am not sure where to start but no system will work if the nation as a whole is party to all sorts of ills (bribery, corruption, dishonesty, injustice etc). Don't want to derail the thread but I would say start resolving the following issues: It does not matter what method is used.

Education: The main problem is lack of education/knowledge be it religious or non religious. Educate the next generation in both religious and non religious studies otherwise we will be standing at the same crossroads 50 years down the line.

Judiciary: Absence of justice. This is the main and the biggest cause of frustration. A working judiciary system can reduce the ills in a very short time.

Police: Police officers roam like kings rather then serve the people. No accountability.

Land reforms: A corrupt ancient system should be abolished. Adopt a computerized system.

I would ask one question: how do you insure that the four wings are selecting people fairly and on merit and there is no corruption and bribery?

Mr.Shah,
Thank you first of all.Second, this fact cannot be denied that corruption cannot be eliminated 100% but it can be reduced to (n?) percent. Now as you are asking that how can we make sure that our committee will be consisting of pious people in the first place?
The answer is simple: If we will become successful to select well reputed and sincere mindsets in the first place then,next time probability of again selecting sincere people will be greater because SCP administrative committee themselves will be given a choice to nominate members for their replacement. Plus,next elections in case of successful formation of body will take place once in 5-10 years b/c a committee requires at least few years only to recognize, diagnose and developing strategies as well as adjusting possibilities to implement systems. However, for these candidates to be elected by SCP members, election will take place twice in 6 years to attain more active/fresh minds.
Regards

 

[Shah01]

Thanks Slav Defence. I agree that corruption cannot be eliminated 100%.

So how do we setup these wings?
Are these wings accountable to anyone?
How do we insure that it is not discriminating against a sect, tribe or cast?

I think we can learn a thing or two from the Libyan jamahiriya?

 

[Slav Defence]

Thanks Slav Defence. I agree that corruption cannot be eliminated 100%.

So how do we setup these wings?
Are these wings accountable to anyone?
How do we insure that it is not discriminating against a sect, tribe or cast?

I think we can learn a thing or two from the Libyan jamahiriya?

A committee of both high court and military court judges will be held responsible to keep a sharp eye over SCP members. No politician neither President will be allowed to influence these two committee.
Regards

 

[Jaanbaz]

I don't believe in democracy any more. Gen Raheel Sharif should take over and rule for life. Throw all politicians in jail and also bring Altaf bhai back to Pakistan and put him in jail too.

 

[Sliver]

@Slav Defence

very good analysis - more non corrupt people through democracy would be great.

In your flow charts - the place where "having connection to a powerful family" isc- can be safely put into "corrupt people" because there is no check in place to make sure they are corrupt or not.