Delhi - History and Geography with a view to Defense issues

[Chak Bamu]

<MOD EDIT> I have created a new thread per @levina's request, since the original thread was getting derailed and the OT posts were valuable in themselves as they relate to Delhi. A quick search reveals that such a topic did not exist before. Considering importance of Delhi in history and geography of South Asia (not just India), I hope that this would be a valuable thread. I hope nobody trolls this thread and that nobody spoils the harmonious atmosphere established by the originating posts. @janon @kadamba-warrior , and others please provide your valuable input <MOD EDIT>

I always knew it!!
Delhi was a wrong selection,our capital should have been somewhere in the center of India.
Delhi is closer to Pakistan and China, who ostensibly arent are best friends. But then we Indians are known to follow the britishers....even when they were wrong.

Nagpur, anyone?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

I always knew it!!
Delhi was a wrong selection,our capital should have been somewhere in the center of India.
Delhi is closer to Pakistan and China, who ostensibly arent are best friends. But then we Indians are known to follow the britishers....even when they were wrong.

Delhi's location is not too bad.

You should see where Seoul is, the South Korean capital with 50% of their entire country's population, is sitting right on the other side of the border with North Korea!

Now that is a terrible location. And it's the reason why they tolerate all that North Korean craziness.

Since Seoul IS South Korea. Whereas New Delhi and Beijing only contain a very small percentage of their respective national populations.

 

[Levina]

Delhi's location is not too bad.

You should see where Seoul is, the South Korean capital with 50% of their entire country's population, is sitting right on the other side of the border with North Korea!

Now that is a terrible location. And it's the reason why they tolerate all that North Korean craziness.

Since Seoul IS South Korea. Whereas New Delhi and Beijing only contain a very small percentage of their respective national populations.

Lol N.Korean govt is such a bully.

Delhi was chosen because it was convenient. The structures were already in place and everything else was readymade by the Britishers.
I am sure Pakistan at the same time had to start from the scratch to build Islamabad.

Nagpur, anyone?

Why not??
Nagpur is far away from Pak and China,and before any missile reaches Nagpur it can be intercepted as there would be sufficient time.
Historically India had 2 sets of capitals Agra-Shimla(Mughal) Kolkata-Shimla and later Delhi-Shimla (British era).
Theres a reason why Nagpur was selected for ordnance factories.
I would pitch for Nagpur or say Jabalpur.
Btw did I just deviate this thread???
Oopsie!

 

[Armstrong]

I always knew it!!
Delhi was a wrong selection,our capital should have been somewhere in the center of India.
Delhi is closer to Pakistan and China, who ostensibly arent our best friends. But then we Indians are known to follow the britishers....even when they were wrong.

And the British followed the Mughals & the Mughals the Delhi Sultanate - I think you're being too harsh on yourselves....Delhi was a subconscious choice for a Capital as it had been the de-facto capital of any major power in the Subcontinent whether it ruled South Asia in its entirety or not !

 

[janon]

And the British followed the Mughals & the Mughals the Delhi Sultanate - I think you're being too harsh on yourselves....Delhi was a subconscious choice for a Capital as it had been the de-facto capital of any major power in the Subcontinent whether it ruled South Asia in its entirety or not !

Guess where Indraprastha, capital of the Pandavas in the Mahabharata was? And that was some 3 millenia ago. We really cannot blame the Brits for that choice. And since there were no missiles in 1947, we can't blame the Indian nation builders either.

 

[Levina]

And the British followed the Mughals & the Mughals the Delhi Sultanate - I think you're being too harsh on yourselves....Delhi was a subconscious choice for a Capital as it had been the de-facto capital of any major power in the Subcontinent whether it ruled South Asia in its entirety or not !

Just because our nation builders made a mistake some 50-60 yrs ago doesnt mean we have to live with it forever.
There are many disadvantages of Delhi
1) it is located on a seismically sensitive zone.
2) Closer to Pak and China.
3) it is overly populated.
4) Nagpur would also be closer to the financial capital of India...Mumbai.

 

[Armstrong]

Just because our nation builders made a mistake some 50-60 yrs ago doesnt mean we have to live with it forever.
There are many disadvantages of Delhi
1) it is located on a seismically sensitive zone.
2) Closer to Pak and China.
3) it is overly populated.
4) Nagpur would also be closer to the financial capital of India...Mumbai.

The closer to Pakistan bit doesn't make any sense because if missiles are something you're afraid of than Auntie Jee every City is on each other's Radars - Neither Delhi nor Islamabad would be safe if we go about using missiles to attack each other & there isn't an Anti-Missile-System out there barring what the Americans are coming up which even remotely guarantees missile defense against ballistic missiles (not the toys that Hamas throws against Israel) !

And if rumors are true that Pakistan is working on an MIRV (which I'm sure India would be working on too) means that those Anti-Ballistic-Missile-Systems are gonna become even less efficacious !

 

[kadamba-warrior]

And the British followed the Mughals & the Mughals the Delhi Sultanate - I think you're being too harsh on yourselves....Delhi was a subconscious choice for a Capital as it had been the de-facto capital of any major power in the Subcontinent whether it ruled South Asia in its entirety or not !

Like @janon said, Delhi (formerly Indraprastha.) was already a capital during the times of Pandavas Mahabharat. Lol, there is still an area named Indraprastha even today! So, NO! Can't give credit to Mughals, who were a very recent phenomenon!

OT, Devagiri (a place in present day Maharashtra and a legacy of Tuglaq's) was closer to Nagpur and perhaps a better place had it been continued.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Now that the discussion has veered off decidedly into OT territory and seeing that nobody has an interest in 5 weapons and what-not, let me contribute to the OT.

Interesting bit about Indraprastha. I will make one observation:

The fast flowing rivers that plunge into the plains of North India (just like Indus and its tributaries in Pakistan) from Himalayas carry a great deal of silt. As these rivers enter the plains and join up with other streams, their waters loose velocity and are forced to deposit a great proportion of the silt that they carry. The elevation of river bed that happens forces a change in river course every few hundred years. Since rivers played such important part in establishing and sustaining cites, this means that cities of North India were at the mercy of rivers, that would often change course. Harappa or Indus Valley Civilization grew next to river Ravi. As the river shifted its course, the city declined. Today Ravi flows 11 KM from runis of Harappa. Similarly, while river Ravi used to flow right next to Lahore Fort, it changed course a couple of hundred years ago (I think) and now flows about 2 Km away.

That is why though Lahore is supposed to have been founded by Loh, son of god Ram, I do not attach any importance to this myth - just because there is no long-term permanence in such cities. It is very difficult to tell how old these really are. The last site selection of Lahore happened 1000 years ago under Malik Ayaz. What was there before that is anybody's guess.

I've written all this just to say that the mythology of Mahabarata can not be conclusively linked with Delhi as Indraprastha, because like Lahore, Delhi too can not be said to have existed 3 millenia ago.

@janon @levina @kadamba-warrior

 

[kadamba-warrior]

Now that the discussion has veered off decidedly into OT territory and seeing that nobody has an interest in 5 weapons and what-not, let me contribute to the OT.

Interesting bit about Indraprastha. I will make one observation:

The fast flowing rivers that plunge into the plains of North India (just like Indus and its tributaries in Pakistan) from Himalayas carry a great deal of silt. As these rivers enter the plains and join up with other streams, their waters loose velocity and are forced to deposit a great proportion of the silt that they carry. The elevation of river bed that happens forces a change in river course every few hundred years. Since rivers played such important part in establishing and sustaining cites, this means that cities of North India were at the mercy of rivers, that would often change course. Harappa or Indus Valley Civilization grew next to river Ravi. As the river shifted its course, the city declined. Today Ravi flows 11 KM from runis of Harappa. Similarly, while river Ravi used to flow right next to Lahore Fort, it changed course a couple of hundred years ago (I think) and now flows about 2 Km away.

That is why though Lahore is supposed to have been founded by Loh, son of god Ram, I do not attach any importance to this myth - just because there is no long-term permanence in such cities. It is very difficult to tell how old these really are. The last site selection of Lahore happened 1000 years ago under Malik Ayaz. What was there before that is anybody's guess.

I've written all this just to say that the mythology of Mahabarata can not be conclusively linked with Delhi as Indraprastha, because like Lahore, Delhi too can not be said to have existed 3 millenia ago.

@janon @levina @kadamba-warrior

Point taken. But it should also be noted that when the rivers change course, it need not be always in one direction. Many times, rivers do come back to their original courses. And when they do, they wipe out all the remnants of the city -- thereby making it harder for historians later to prove the existence of the city (as is the case with Indraprastha, right now).

 

[Levina]

Now that the discussion has veered off decidedly into OT territory and seeing that nobody has an interest in 5 weapons and what-not, let me contribute to the OT.

Interesting bit about Indraprastha. I will make one observation:

The fast flowing rivers that plunge into the plains of North India (just like Indus and its tributaries in Pakistan) from Himalayas carry a great deal of silt. As these rivers enter the plains and join up with other streams, their waters loose velocity and are forced to deposit a great proportion of the silt that they carry. The elevation of river bed that happens forces a change in river course every few hundred years. Since rivers played such important part in establishing and sustaining cites, this means that cities of North India were at the mercy of rivers, that would often change course. Harappa or Indus Valley Civilization grew next to river Ravi. As the river shifted its course, the city declined. Today Ravi flows 11 KM from runis of Harappa. Similarly, while river Ravi used to flow right next to Lahore Fort, it changed course a couple of hundred years ago (I think) and now flows about 2 Km away.

That is why though Lahore is supposed to have been founded by Loh, son of god Ram, I do not attach any importance to this myth - just because there is no long-term permanence in such cities. It is very difficult to tell how old these really are. The last site selection of Lahore happened 1000 years ago under Malik Ayaz. What was there before that is anybody's guess.

I've written all this just to say that the mythology of Mahabarata can not be conclusively linked with Delhi as Indraprastha, because like Lahore, Delhi too can not be said to have existed 3 millenia ago.

@janon @levina @kadamba-warrior

Too good a post!!!
The logic you've put forward makes complete sense.
But there are physical evidences that Delhi was Indraprastha.
The greywares which were ostensibly used during the mahabharta were excavated from /near the purana Quila area of Delhi.
Indraprastha was also called khandavaprastha which was the name of a forest on the banks of Yamuna.And thats another proof that Delhi might have been actually Indraprastha.
The location shown as Indraprastha in the map is where purana quila(built by Mughals is currently situated)

PS:
Requesting you to open a new thread on this and merge our posts related to this topic on that thread.I am sure other members would also contribute well to this subject.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Some random resources to liven up the discussion:

History of Delhi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"The Indian capital city of Delhi has a long history, including a history as the capital of several empires. The earliest architectural relicsdate back to the Maurya Period (c. 300 BC); since then, the site has seen continuous settlement. In 1966, an inscription of the Mauryan Emperor Ashoka (273-236 BC) was discovered near Srinivaspur. Two sandstone pillars inscribed with the edicts of Ashoka were brought to by Firuz Shah Tughluq in the 14th century. The famous Iron pillar near the Qutub Minar was commissioned by the emperorKumara Gupta I of the Gupta dynasty (320-540) and transplant Delhi during the 10th century. Eight major cities have been situated in the Delhi area. The first five cities were in the southern part of present-day Delhi.

Though settlements have been dated to have been in existence in Delhi for millennia, there is no record to stand by that claim. Delhi is generally considered a close to 5000-year old city, as per Ancient Indian text The Mahabharata, since the first ever mention of the city is found in this religious scripture. Therefore, except the scripture and some related heritage like the Yogmaya Temple, archaeological evidences to book the city's Ancient history are as good as naught. As a result, Delhi's Ancient history finds no records and this period may be regarded as the lost period of its history. Extensive coverage of Delhi's history begins with the onset of the Delhi Sultanate in the 12th century. Since then, Delhi had been the seat of Islamic and British rulers until India's independence in 1947."
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History of Delhi
"Delhi History

History of Delhi enumerates a saga of various dynasties like the Mughals, Khilji and Tuglaks who once ruled this city. The first ever evidence of Delhi can be traced back to the times of Mahabharata in 1400 BC when it was known by the name of Indraprastha. However, it is said that Anagpal Tomar first laid the foundation stone of the seven ancient cities of Delhi much before the 13th century. "
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History of Delhi - Lonely Planet Travel Information
"History
Delhi hasn’t always been India’s capital, but it has played a pivotal part in Indian history as it has always been a gateway city, built on the plains initially near a fording point on the Yamuna River and on the route between western and central Asia and Southeast Asia. It’s also believed to be the site of the fabled city of Indraprastha, which featured in the Mahabharata over 3000 years ago, but historical evidence suggests that the area has been settled for around 2500 years.
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Read more: History of Delhi - Lonely Planet Travel Information

 

[IND151]

The closer to Pakistan bit doesn't make any sense because if missiles are something you're afraid of than Auntie Jee every City is on each other's Radars - Neither Delhi nor Islamabad would be safe if we go about using missiles to attack each other & there isn't an Anti-Missile-System out there barring what the Americans are coming up which even remotely guarantees missile defense against ballistic missiles (not the toys that Hamas throws against Israel) !

And if rumors are true that Pakistan is working on an MIRV (which I'm sure India would be working on too) means that those Anti-Ballistic-Missile-Systems are gonna become even less efficacious !

For that Pakistan will need a complete new missile with far greater throw weight as Missiles equipped with MIRV have throw weight in excess of 2 tons (4 plus warheads along with MIRV Bus).

Probably the source you are referring to was pointing at MRVs not MIRVs.

 

[Chak Bamu]

For that Pakistan will need a complete new missile with far greater throw weight as Missiles equipped with MIRV have throw weight in excess of 2 tons (4 plus warheads along with MIRV Bus).

Probably the source you are referring to was pointing at MRVs not MIRVs.

@Armstrong wrote in the context of the original thread and had something to say about Delhi and that is why his post is here. I would rather have people discuss things in context of Delhi. Discussions about MRV or MIRV etc... can be done in some other, more appropriate thread.

 

[Contrarian]

<MOD EDIT> I have created a new thread per @levina's request, since the original thread was getting derailed and the OT posts were valuable in themselves as they relate to Delhi. A quick search reveals that such a topic did not exist before. Considering importance of Delhi in history and geography of South Asia (not just India), I hope that this would be a valuable thread. I hope nobody trolls this thread and that nobody spoils the harmonious atmosphere established by the originating posts. @janon @kadamba-warrior , and others please provide your valuable input <MOD EDIT>



Nagpur, anyone?

Delhi's location is not too bad.

You should see where Seoul is, the South Korean capital with 50% of their entire country's population, is sitting right on the other side of the border with North Korea!

Now that is a terrible location. And it's the reason why they tolerate all that North Korean craziness.

Since Seoul IS South Korea. Whereas New Delhi and Beijing only contain a very small percentage of their respective national populations.

Central India is decidedly important already.
The MHOW - Military Headquarters of War is located near Indore(Madhya Pradesh). While we remain in no doubt that Delhi will be attacked in case of a war, the major issue there is only evacuation of the Prime Minister and his Cabinet.

Plans for that are there and equipment regularly procured for it. The real degradation of capability apart from that is only that Military leadership is not decimated in a pre-emptive strike. For that, as I said, MHOW is not located in Delhi.

Lastly , as Chinese Dragon has pointed out, Delhi is neither the economic center of India nor houses a major part of India's population. We have hundreds of distributed cities with high population. So as such, Delhi is not crucial to India's survival.

The closer to Pakistan bit doesn't make any sense because if missiles are something you're afraid of than Auntie Jee every City is on each other's Radars - Neither Delhi nor Islamabad would be safe if we go about using missiles to attack each other & there isn't an Anti-Missile-System out there barring what the Americans are coming up which even remotely guarantees missile defense against ballistic missiles (not the toys that Hamas throws against Israel) !

And if rumors are true that Pakistan is working on an MIRV (which I'm sure India would be working on too) means that those Anti-Ballistic-Missile-Systems are gonna become even less efficacious !

The point here is that having the capital or MHOW which is thousands of kms away from the border gives additional reaction time. In a war that is crucial.

Every country must play to its advantages. We are a vast country, and so we must use that advantage. Pakistan is a narrow(width) country, therefore it cannot leverage that.