Decision time for Indian attack helicopter tender

[Skull and Bones]

Hey guys what do you know about the website ....Aircraft Comparison Compare Airplanes Compare Boeing and Airbus Boeing 787 Airbus A380 Photos Review ???

You can actually compare the prices of various aircrafts.....i just wanted to know how reliable are the costs ??

AH64D, according to website cost around 61 million $. I think we are getting a very nice deal through FMS in this case....

What will be the per unit price of Apache in this tender?

 

[angeldemon_007]

^^^
Without spares and missiles...
600/22= 27.27 million $

 

[Skull and Bones]

^^^
Without spares and missiles...
600/22= 27.27 million $

Can we integrate our own missiles with it? I don't think so.

 

[angeldemon_007]

^^^
I think right now even defense establishment in India is not sure of this and thats why IAF is taking precautionary steps and purchasing weapons in huge number....i think our Helina is better....but until we induct Apache use it for sometime, we cannot be sure whether our weapons can be used, it applies to all the platforms, even Russian but we have a huge experience with Russian platform...

 

[archangel]

It looks like civilian choppers...aren't they futurre Kamov model ???


Arey yaar....waise bhi, US will take out communication equipments as we haven't signed the CISMOA but BEL can add to this shortcomings but before writing these comments at-least take some pain to learn about features of both choppers. Apache is not called the best choppers just because of its superiority over network features.

Ya, I have mentioned that, too.... That's the whole point of the discussion here that Mil Mi-28 is a gud Russian Helicopter with cheaper price tag and loads of firepower..... Apache too has gud firepower, gud reputation and gud International Market.... The Mil Mi-28 looses out on the fact that it lacks gud communication, detection and Net-centric capabilities of the standards of the Apache... But, since we didn't agree to sign CISMOA, we would miss these features.... SO, why spend on that instead of the more familiar Russian Chopper that also happens to boast of some gud firepower....

Also, my comment which you have quoted is against another comment that I had replied to.... That is why you find everything related to network features only....

About those Kamov choppers..... Yes, they are civilian but what is most important about them is their pusher-prop technology which means that unlike other (traditional) helicopter, they can overcome the speed limit where traditional choppers stall..... This means they are VTOL and can move fast also but comparatively cheaper as compered to owning and operating dedicated VTOL aircrafts... (Please confirm me if my understanding is correct about this pusher-prop technology!!!!! )

 

[angeldemon_007]

The Mil Mi-28 looses out on the fact that it lacks gud communication, detection and Net-centric capabilities of the standards of the Apache

Actually i have one question...why we are even considering Mi-28, its service ceiling is too low as compared to Apache. Mi28's service ceiling is 5750 m while that of Apache is 6400 m. Looking at the specs i think AH64D blk III might have beaten Mi28NE on many features, not just communication. I don't know that Mi28 even passed the tests or not.

What i was trying to say earlier was that, if we purchase Apache and even if US remove those equipments BEL will find their replacement either locally or from any where else like from Europe. In short the Apache that we will finally get, might not have much difference in capability from the one which US army will and marine corps will get.

Not to mention we are getting Apache at a very low rate due to FMS and US government has not offered this to any other country like P8i. Look man, i have a tendency to admire a good machine and AH64D blk 3 is the best helicopter ever made...

About those Kamov choppers..... Yes, they are civilian but what is most important about them is their pusher-prop technology which means that unlike other (traditional) helicopter, they can overcome the speed limit where traditional choppers stall.....

Yeah i have heard Kamov was building a chopper that could reach to speed of 500kmph but what i was trying to say that time was these choppers look like only meant for civilian purpose...lets see what happens. Well apart from Kamov, i know about bell and eurocopter also have similar project for a very fast choppers. But our current problem is Russian choppers are not advanced enough like their European counterparts. Also their is no point of purchasing an old Russian machine and then modernizing it using systems from Europe as ultimately it increases cost of machine. It will be better that we purchase the better chopper in the first place.

 

[sancho]

It looks like civilian choppers...aren't they futurre Kamov model ???

No, they will have civillian versions too, but are competing eachother for the next helicopter development in a competition of Russian government. But there are already newer models, check my earlier reply to you:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...n-attack-helicopter-tender-4.html#post1646476

What i was trying to say earlier was that, if we purchase Apache and even if US remove those equipments BEL will find their replacement either locally or from any where else like from Europe. In short the Apache that we will finally get, might not have much difference in capability from the one which US army will and marine corps will get.

The comunication parts are not a big deal, because we can replace them with European, or Israeli parts and it's rather normal that the US downgrade export arms compared to their own stuff. But still the avionics of the Apache makes it more capable as the Mi 28, especially for the future.
The only problem for the Apache will be the price, because the budget cleared for this competition is pretty low.

 

[angeldemon_007]

^^^
I thought India drafted her requirement for 1.4 billion dollar which included spares, weapons and helicopters. I think if government has not sanction the money, then how can IAF set up a package that they want ??

The comunication parts are not a big deal, because we can replace them with European, or Israeli parts and it's rather normal that the US downgrade export arms compared to their own stuff. But still the avionics of the Apache makes it more capable as the Mi 28, especially for the future.

Actually thats what i meant....we just have to see how many features will US take away from Apache....

No, they will have civillian versions too, but are competing eachother for the next helicopter development in a competition of Russian government. But there are already newer models, check my earlier reply to you:

Thanx....but i think in future it will be better that we go for our own choppers because the way we are getting support from global helicopter industry like JV from various companies. I think the coming helicopters and newer version of dhruv will be better than Russian counterpart and not to mention cheap....

The second chopper in the pic is somewhat similar to Sikorsky X2 chopper...

 

[angeldemon_007]

Have you guys seen this....

Ka90

Ulan-Ude creates a secret SUPERhelicopter .In the capital of Buryatia took Closed expanded meeting, which discussed the development plans of Ulan-Ude aviation plant and a new, still secret model helicopter

As reported by the Baikal 24 ", the meeting presented the concept car, tentatively called" high-speed helicopter. " Symbiosis of helicopter and airplane technologies will allow this design to fly at speeds up to 500 km / h, which is 50 km / h higher than that developed in the U.S. counterpart.

Machine Building Design Bureau named Miles and designers UUAZ that while designated as Mi-X1, would have the possibility of vertical takeoff and landing.

According to "Inform Polis, Ulan-Ude Aviation Plant is selected to create a prototype and further production is not accidental: it is the only enterprise in Russia, where they can collect both helicopters and airplanes.

The creators plan to begin tests of the Mi-X1 already in 2014.

 

[angeldemon_007]

Some more pics and info...

The Kamov Ka-90 is a projected high-speed helicopter, a model of which was displayed at the HeliRussia2008 trade show in April 2008. The concept is a hybrid design, flying like a helicopter for take-off and landing and an aeroplane in cruise flight. The company's general designer Sergei Mikheyev said that the project was started in 1985. Although not developed at that time, it is now under consideration in 2008.

 

[SR 71 Blackbird]

Can anyone give the specs/pics of the longbow radar?

 

[Skull and Bones]

Can anyone give the specs/pics of the longbow radar?

The Longbow Fire Control Radar with its distinctive mast mounted antenna is a 35 GHz radar system for the detection, location, classification and prioritization of tactical targets. The AH-64D is armed with the Lockheed Martin/Boeing AGM-114D Longbow Hellfire air-to-surface missile which has a millimeter wave seeker which allows the missile to perform in full fire and forget mode. Range is 8km to 12km.

The Longbow Fire Control Radar and its weapons counterpart, the radar-guided, "fire and forget" Longbow Hellfire missile, enable the potent Apache attack helicopter to detect, classify and prioritize ground targets day or night, in poor weather and obscured conditions; then attack those targets with pinpoint accuracy from ranges that safeguard the lives of the aircrew. Developed and built for the U.S. Army by Longbow LLC, (a joint venture with Lockheed Martin), it has also been ordered by the British Army.

The AH-64D Apache Longbow (Apache Longbow Team, AMSTA-LC-CSAL) is an improved variation of the AH-64A Apache aircraft modified to integrate the mast mounted Longbow fire control radar with the Hellfire Missile System. Longbow is the result of a development and acquisition program for a millimeter wave radar air/ground targeting system capable of being used in day or night, in adverse weather, and through battlefield obscurants.

The Longbow is a modification of the Apache helicopter that consists of an upgraded airframe, a newly developed radar, and the Longbow Hellfire missile. The Apache Longbow is designed to conduct precision attacks in adverse weather conditions, automatically engage multiple targets, provide fire and forget missile capability, and operate on the digital battlefield of the future. The radar, the key component of the Longbow, is designed to provide the helicopter with the capability to automatically detect, classify, and prioritize targets. In 1991, the Army planned to develop and procure 227 Longbow Apache helicopters. In May 1993, the program was restructured to upgrade the entire fleet of 758 helicopters to the Apache Longbow configuration but outfit only 227 with the fire control radar and a more powerful 701C engine. Full rate production of both the Apache Longbow airframe and fire control radar was authorized in October 1995. The first contract for 10 fire control radars was awarded in March 1993, and the second contract was finalized in January 1997 for an additional 11 radars.

AN/APG-78 Longbow Fire Control Radar

 

[Skull and Bones]

Have you guys seen this....

Ka90

.

Several such concepts existed in the cold war era, maybe they resurrected one of them.

 

[angeldemon_007]

^^^
Hope you read it now...

The Kamov Ka-90 is a projected high-speed helicopter, a model of which was displayed at the HeliRussia2008 trade show in April 2008. The concept is a hybrid design, flying like a helicopter for take-off and landing and an aeroplane in cruise flight. The company's general designer Sergei Mikheyev said that the project was started in 1985. Although not developed at that time, it is now under consideration in 2008.

Read this about Russia's future helicopter project..
http://www.flightglobal.com/article...w-show-highlights-high-speed-helicopters.html

 

[archangel]

Actually i have one question...why we are even considering Mi-28, its service ceiling is too low as compared to Apache. Mi28's service ceiling is 5750 m while that of Apache is 6400 m. Looking at the specs i think AH64D blk III might have beaten Mi28NE on many features, not just communication. I don't know that Mi28 even passed the tests or not.

What i was trying to say earlier was that, if we purchase Apache and even if US remove those equipments BEL will find their replacement either locally or from any where else like from Europe. In short the Apache that we will finally get, might not have much difference in capability from the one which US army will and marine corps will get.

Not to mention we are getting Apache at a very low rate due to FMS and US government has not offered this to any other country like P8i. Look man, i have a tendency to admire a good machine and AH64D blk 3 is the best helicopter ever made...


Yeah i have heard Kamov was building a chopper that could reach to speed of 500kmph but what i was trying to say that time was these choppers look like only meant for civilian purpose...lets see what happens. Well apart from Kamov, i know about bell and eurocopter also have similar project for a very fast choppers. But our current problem is Russian choppers are not advanced enough like their European counterparts. Also their is no point of purchasing an old Russian machine and then modernizing it using systems from Europe as ultimately it increases cost of machine. It will be better that we purchase the better chopper in the first place.

Yeah, u r right that it has a lower max. altitude but it has got better speed, but then again Mil Mi-28 loses out on combat radius that too by almost half, yet again it boasts of better lift and better stability due to its 5-bladed against the Apache's 4-bladed rotor, but has lower useful weight as compared to Apache by almost ~800kgs.... (Data from Wikipedia.... I cannot guarantee it's reliability)

Buddy, frankly speaking, the more I'm getting involved with this thread, the more I'm getting to know about both of 'em.... Both the Helicopters have their set of pros and cons and reputation, as well as the reputation of their countries at stake. May the best Attack Helicopter win.... 22, I guess, is the number and I don't want to fight above it any more..... cheers!!!

BTW.... This design/concept of the pusher propeller is in trial with many International Companies.... I hope that they are made available for military use ASAP.....

Also, the point you made about Indians building their own Helicopter has my full consideration. This sector of our country is evolving fast and our products are also excellent and affordable and we have a cleaner reputation as against China (which has a reputation of modifying or reverse-engineering Russian Products ) and we definitely should go for our own choppers because, oh they are so awesome, so far.....

If you can, then please tell me about CAIC WZ-10 with data or links and how does it stack up against our own homemade attack heli LCH!!!!!!