Decision time for Indian attack helicopter tender

[sancho]

Yeah, u r right...... afterall, only except the Helina, I think almost all the work is complete on LCH..... I expect them to induct it ASAP enough and go for a mark-2 version with atleast retractable wheels/landing gear... cozz I mean, what the heck, u make a whole helicopter with stealth in mind and miss out on adding retractable landing gear..... Believe it or not, If they before finally releasing the heli manage to get the retractable landing gear, Helina (with the longer range) and a smaller/narrower tail-section, just to decrease the huge side surface area which could easily be its weakest point bcozz of being way too shootable/trackable/targetable (I think I still haven't got the right words... anyways), this could not only make it a success in the International Market but also could mark it as the stealthiest heli in service!!!!!!!!! (Anyone else knows of any other heli designed with stealth in mind other than Comanche and LCH and Kawasaki OH-1???)

The Comanche is the only helicopter with real stealth features, like airframe shapings, internal weaponbays, IR and noise reduction. At the end, all helicopters will be detected in air easily, you just can reduce the RCS to some extend and use low level flight tactics to avoid detection.

Regarding retractable gears, this is not really needed for a combat helicopter and would just increase the costs, without a big advantage. Neither the Apache, nor the Mi 28 have it either.

 

[angeldemon_007]

Buddy, just making a point here....... An Mi-17 can carry 30 fully-equipped soldiers, along with provisions for carrying an SUV inside, easily upgradable, can carry SUVs or light howitzers below with ropes along with inside loads, is a reliable platform for both multi-role and attack/support capabilities and yet comes at a cost 1/3rd of that of the basic Blackhawk which can only carry 8-9 fully-equipped soldiers or underslung weight!!!!!!!!

Good to know....but anybody who knows about black hawk will never talk about it like this...Mi17 is a crap....we shouldn't have placed order for it when we were getting similar and way more advanced choppers from Europe and US. Russian Chopper Industry is still in 80s when most of the present choppers were designed. All these Ka-52, Mi28, Mi17 all these choppers came during these times.

Do you guys know that Russian military has decided to purchase weapons from Europe because their industry is lacking quality while Russia is selling those low quality weapons to us. During this study only Russian fighter jet industry was considered as competitive to western counterparts. In this fray Russia decided to purchase 2 Mistral Class LHD with an option to buy 2 more with ToT.

Also we are purchasing Mi17 V4 at 16.5 million $ per helicopter and black hawk cost 16 million $. Also black hawk can accommodate 2 pilots (flight crew) with 2 crew chiefs/gunners and 14 troops not 8/9.

Anybody who knows about both these choppers will tell you, Mi17 is like Mumbai best buses and black hawk is like Volvo buses.

IA and IAF are talking about moving towards network centric warfare and if they are serious about it, then now its time that we look towards west because most of Russian weaponry is still of 80s. With Russia we should only opt for JVs and such projects which no-one else is offering us.

 

[faithfulguy]

Good to know....but anybody who knows about black hawk will never talk about it like this...Mi17 is a crap....we shouldn't have placed order for it when we were getting similar and way more advanced choppers from Europe and US. Russian Chopper Industry is still in 80s when most of the present choppers were designed. All these Ka-52, Mi28, Mi17 all these choppers came during these times.

Do you guys know that Russian military has decided to purchase weapons from Europe because their industry is lacking quality while Russia is selling those low quality weapons to us. During this study only Russian fighter jet industry was considered as competitive to western counterparts. In this fray Russia decided to purchase 2 Mistral Class LHD with an option to buy 2 more with ToT.

Also we are purchasing Mi17 V4 at 16.5 million $ per helicopter and black hawk cost 16 million $. Also black hawk can accommodate 2 pilots (flight crew) with 2 crew chiefs/gunners and 14 troops not 8/9.

Anybody who knows about both these choppers will tell you, Mi17 is like Mumbai best buses and black hawk is like Volvo buses.

IA and IAF are talking about moving towards network centric warfare and if they are serious about it, then now its time that we look towards west because most of Russian weaponry is still of 80s. With Russia we should only opt for JVs and such projects which no-one else is offering us.

Wow, if most Indians start to think like you, then India would have the most advanced military in Asia.

 

[Just Yash]

Good to know....but anybody who knows about black hawk will never talk about it like this...Mi17 is a crap....we shouldn't have placed order for it when we were getting similar and way more advanced choppers from Europe and US. Russian Chopper Industry is still in 80s when most of the present choppers were designed. All these Ka-52, Mi28, Mi17 all these choppers came during these times.

Do you guys know that Russian military has decided to purchase weapons from Europe because their industry is lacking quality while Russia is selling those low quality weapons to us. During this study only Russian fighter jet industry was considered as competitive to western counterparts. In this fray Russia decided to purchase 2 Mistral Class LHD with an option to buy 2 more with ToT.

Also we are purchasing Mi17 V4 at 16.5 million $ per helicopter and black hawk cost 16 million $. Also black hawk can accommodate 2 pilots (flight crew) with 2 crew chiefs/gunners and 14 troops not 8/9.

Anybody who knows about both these choppers will tell you, Mi17 is like Mumbai best buses and black hawk is like Volvo buses.

IA and IAF are talking about moving towards network centric warfare and if they are serious about it, then now its time that we look towards west because most of Russian weaponry is still of 80s. With Russia we should only opt for JVs and such projects which no-one else is offering us.

You got it wrong dear,

Let's compair both choppers.

Mi17 : Can carry more then 30 troops or 12 stretchers.
Bla.h: can carry 14 troops of 6 stretchers.

Mi17 :4,000 kg (8,820 lb) cargo internally /5,000 kg (11,023 lb) externally slung.
Bla.h : 2,640 lb of cargo internally or 4000kg externally

Mil17 : 12000 produced around 60 country.
Bla.h : bit higher then 2600.

India is not oly country which is preferring Mil 17 more then Black hawk. read below artical.

On 28 October 2008 the Royal Thai Army announced a deal to buy 6 Mi-17s to meet its requirement for a medium-lift helicopter. This is the first time the Thai military has acquired Russian aircraft instead of American.[6] Flight International quotes the Thai army’s rationale: "We are buying three Mi-17 helicopters for the price of one Black Hawk. The Mi-17 can also carry more than 30 troops, while the Black Hawk could carry only 13 soldiers. These were the key factors behind the decision

On 10 July 2009, it was announced that Chile would pursue talks with Russia to purchase five Mi-17 multi-role helicopters for the Chilean Air Force, despite pressure from the United States

Even U.S. operate MI-17.

 

[Gold1010]

Ohh he was comparing apache with tiger, i thought he got confused with LCH and tiger....but i agree with him that IA should go for some heavy attack chopper like apache or Mi28NE

actually i was just showing a few pics of the aussie tigers lol*rolls eyes*

 

[angeldemon_007]

You got it wrong dear,

Let's compair both choppers.

Mi17 : Can carry more then 30 troops or 12 stretchers.
Bla.h: can carry 14 troops of 6 stretchers.

Mi17 :4,000 kg (8,820 lb) cargo internally /5,000 kg (11,023 lb) externally slung.
Bla.h : 2,640 lb of cargo internally or 4000kg externally

Mil17 : 12000 produced around 60 country.
Bla.h : bit higher then 2600.

India is not oly country which is preferring Mil 17 more then Black hawk. read below artical.

yaar....Mi17 was sold because of its cheaper cost....but the new Mi17 V4 which India is purchasing is coming at a cost of 16.5 million $ per helicopter while black hawk comes at 16 million $. Whatever you think but we are paying more for Mi17 than it deserve.
Now see the difference....

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Now the first one can accommodate less number of passenger while second one can more but the difference is there....

There are so many reports saying that Russian military equipments are not advanced enough and especially the russian helicopter industry is way backward than their european counterparts. Now what you are saying is we should buy those helicopters which their army has said to be not worthy for war ???

As far as US is concerned they use some Mi17 for training purposes. Recently they purchased a few Mi17 and that too was purchased to give it to Afghanistan and not for their use.

I never said that we should use black hawk instead of Mi17 because two are in different category but we could have gone for ec725 Caracal or AW101.
I just hope that for IMRH HAL goes for ec725 Caracal or AW101. Even US is considering AW101 for future use.

I suggested black hawk to be used as an attack chopper as it is more maneuverable than Mi17 and can be used for transport also if needed.

 

[sancho]

Russian Chopper Industry is still in 80s when most of the present choppers were designed. All these Ka-52, Mi28, Mi17 all these choppers came during these times...

...IA and IAF are talking about moving towards network centric warfare and if they are serious about it, then now its time that we look towards west because most of Russian weaponry is still of 80s.

Although this is OT, but besides the points Just Yash made:

Mil Mi-17 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

First flight 1970s
Introduced 1970s


Sikorsky UH-60 Black Hawk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

First flight 29 November 1974
Introduced 1979


When you talk about Russian helicopter industry, you have to understand that most older helicopters were developed during the Soviet times, when they had more fundings. Now that Russia is alone, it's natural that they can develop only less arms and techs, which will effect the helicopter industry as well as Sukhoi, or Mig, but that doesn't mean they don't develop anything, or are far behind western counterparts:

Actual helicopters:

Mi 38 (successor of the Mi 17)

Ka 60 (Black Hawk counterpart)

Future developments:

Mi X1

Ka 92

Helicopters with pusher rotors are the future and Russia has it's developments in this area, just like western companies like Sikorsky with the X2, or Eurocopter with the X3.
For IAF it made sense ordering more Mi 17, because they are proven, have the logistics already placed and they are cheap (just like you showed as cheap as a lower class US helicopter!). Not to mention that HAL has started developments for an own MUH, that will replace the older Mi 8 and 17s in future.

 

[Archie]

India will buy Apache , there is nothing to it
also the fact that it is more advanced than the Mi28 as well as more reliable and maneuverable

As far as Mi17v5 are concerned
We had ordered 80 of these at the cost of 1.1 Billion USD thats about 14 million USD a piece

 

[jha]

watch out for Pakistan's ANZA sam's they brought down your super sonic MIG'S in kargil and they did a pretty bad publicity for our planes

Dont worry sir..These will be used to mobilize troops.
As long as we friends like you, we dont need to fear anything...

 

[Skull and Bones]

thanks but take good care of our hardware....you guys are pretty bad in maintaining hardware like 500 MIG's have been lost in peace time in india...what sort of shyt do u do with our planes?

We tried to do cobra maneuver on Mig-21s, but after 500 crashes we came to know that Mig-21s can't do it.

 

[jha]

thanks but take good care of our hardware....you guys are pretty bad in maintaining hardware like 500 MIG's have been lost in peace time in india...what sort of shyt do u do with our planes?

We tried to do cobra maneuver on Mig-21s, but after 500 crashes we came to know that Mig-21s can't do it.

hahahahahahahahaha..

 

[jha]

well its funny for you but MIG is a pretty honourable machine and you guys have pretty much converted it into a joke....we made MIGs to counter f-86's...Pakistan gave up f-86's long ago but you retards are still using mig 21's what sort of gay bull crap is this?you are also loosing mig 29's on monthly basis...wtf is this?? egypt is going for jf17's instead of mig29's just cause of the bad publicity u did

You are probably misinformed... Mig-29s are currently being upgraded not crashing..And where did you hear that Egypt is going for JF-17 .. Who else will buy Junk fighter other than the country of origin..
I have heard that they have shown keen interest in LCA...

 

[jha]

Egypt going for JF-17? Where did you got this info? Ohhhh!!!! Someone informed you really bad about Mig-29 and JF-17. As you knw they cannot be compared, different generation of fighters!!!

he is just promoting his own country's aircraft..

 

[Skull and Bones]

well its funny for you but MIG is a pretty honourable machine and you guys have pretty much converted it into a joke....we made MIGs to counter f-86's...Pakistan gave up f-86's long ago but you retards are still using mig 21's what sort of gay bull crap is this?you are also loosing mig 29's on monthly basis...wtf is this?? egypt is going for jf17's instead of mig29's just cause of the bad publicity u did

No sir, don't suffer from this inferiority complex. Russian products are very good, and these up gradation programs in India are feeding a lot of Russian families back home. And Egyptians never used any Russian products other than Mig-21s.
Our T-50 deal will make up that loses, don't ya worry about that.

Попытка спрятаться за русский флаг лопнул.

 

[jha]

no u are mis informed.....mig 29-rivals jf 17's do u live in slums?dont u read that statement by head of MIG company Mikhail Pogosyan says??stop living in fool world and start taking care of our planes

I dont know how me living in slum will have any effect on this..You know what i would rather live in slums than in fear that some scum is ready to blow himself anytime next to me..

BTW some statements dont mean JF-17 is good..This is a Gen. 3 fighter at most..
You cant compare a Junk Fighter with one of the best 4th Gen plane in the world..Dont undermine your aviation industry..
JF-17 will take ages to mature enough to even think of taking on Mig-21 let alone Mig-29..