What's new

“Death Star” response from US would lock Russia out of 5G, advanced chips

F-22Raptor

ELITE MEMBER
Joined
Jun 19, 2014
Messages
16,980
Reaction score
3
Country
United States
Location
United States
The US is considering restricting the flow of semiconductors into Russia to deter Russian President Vladimir Putin from invading Ukraine. The move would prevent the Russian military and much of the nation’s economy from advancing technologically.

The details of the sanctions are still being decided, but they would rely on similar restrictions that kneecapped Huawei, the Chinese tech company. Though most semiconductors are made overseas, US companies control huge swaths of the larger market, from chip design and manufacturing equipment to process and quality control. By restricting access to those companies' products and services, the US can effectively limit Russian access to the latest chips, even if they’re made in other countries.

“It’s one of the tools that the US has come to prefer because it’s painful, but it doesn’t involve the use of force,” James Andrew Lewis, senior vice president and director of the Strategic Technologies Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, told Ars. “It sort of freezes Russia at a technological moment.”

Though most of the restrictions will likely focus on companies that supply Russia’s military, either directly or indirectly, one place where consumers could feel the pinch is mobile phone service. If implemented, the restrictions would “box the Russians out of the 5G market,” Lewis said.

“Death Star”​

Today, Russian companies can get 5G equipment from Ericsson and Nokia, but the European companies would likely follow any US sanctions, Paul Triolo, head of geotechnology at Eurasia Group, told Ars. The other major player in the Russian telecom market, Huawei, hasn’t been able to deliver true 5G since the US prevented TSMC from making their chips.

To supply the Russian market, companies like Huaweimay have a few options to deliver 5G-like speeds, but the result would be imperfect. “You can design a broader architecture that gets you some part of the way toward the performance part, but it’s hard because of power consumption with broad 5G deployments,” Triolo said. “You need the throughput, the latency, and the power consumption. It’s really hard to get that without advanced nodes below 7 nm or so.”

The sanctions against Russia would be implemented under the foreign direct product rule, which allows the government to impose restrictions on how companies use US technology, even in other countries. Previously, this rule was mostly aimed at companies that would sell directly to foreign militaries. But under the Trump administration, the rule was extended to include certain semiconductor-related technologies to target Chinese telecom suppliers Huawei and ZTE.

The statutory authority in this area is “fairly broad,” Triolo said. “This rule is sort of like a Death Star. We can point it at things we don’t like, and ‘boom.’” The rule can target individual products or even entire countries “because that’s the way this thing is written. It’s really pretty broad,” he said. “That Death Star can be scaled up from something you can hold in your hand to something huge.”

Chokepoint​

Companies tend to bristle at these sorts of restrictions because they argue that it limits their access to markets and reduces their revenue, which they use to fund research and development into the next generation of technologies. Lower revenue would mean less money for R&D, which would put their technological dominance at risk, they say. There’s merit to the argument, though others argue that US firms are already so far ahead that even if they stood still, it would take years for other companies to catch up.

In this case, Russian companies don’t represent much of a threat, but there’s concern among observers that this move would set a troubling precedent and drive other countries to invest more heavily in alternatives to US technologies.

Semiconductors have become a particular choke point because of US firms’ dominance. Though the majority of chips—and nearly all of the most advanced chips—are made in Asian countries, Triolo said that “you can’t build an advanced semiconductor manufacturing facility without large quantities of US equipment.” US companies control around 50–60 percent of the market for that equipment, he estimated.

US technology is critical even when the end products come from foreign companies. Consider, for example, extreme ultraviolet (EUV) lithography machines from the Netherlands' ASML. They’re required to make chips under 7 nm, and they don’t work without a light source made by Cymer, an ASML subsidiary based in San Diego.

The fact that the Biden administration is considering applying the foreign direct product rule to an entire country means “we’re in uncharted territory here,” Triolo said. In the past, US sanctions have relied on the nation’s financial dominance and the dollar’s status as the world’s reserve currency. Now, the Biden administration is considering using technological supremacy in the same way, and such a move would have a significant impact on the way thousands of companies operate.

“It represents a major attempt, at least, to weaponize US technologies in supply chains in a manner similar to the weaponization of the dollar,” Triolo said. Economic sanctions are a "different and well-developed system that is narrowly focused on the dollar. Now you’re talking about US technology, and that’s much more complicated.”

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...d-lock-russia-out-of-5g-advanced-chips/?amp=1
 
.
"Huawei can't deliver real 5G"


3340.jpg
 
. .
Another opinion carrying the ridiculous premise that supply chains are absolute and not a contemporary state based on just as much economical decission and Americans own the supply chains they are involved in rather than being on one end of an agreement.

If that was the case China wouldnt be running the only other space station in the world right now.

That backtracking on that 5G spin tho:
not able
not really
its hard
 
.
lol 5G telecommunication does not depend on 7nm nodes or even 14nm nodes.

Huawei's advanced unique 5G chips which are still unsurpassed by others are not allowed to be fabricated by TSMC and no Chinese foundry can make those 5G chipsets. But they still hold all the patents on dedicated 5G chips and the end result is still clear.

China's 5G rollout is many times greater than Europe and USA's combined until only recently when western Europe and USA caught up. Speeds are still greater in China and utilization. 5G has been operating on farms, construction, mines, street cleaning vehicles and of course phone users since two years ago. They are barely reaching phone users in western Europe and USA now. The speeds are nothing comparable and already China has launched two separate 6G technology testers once in 2020 and one this year.

5G requiring 7nm nodes is absolute bullshit. The equipment is not a smartphone and limited by space. 5G equipment is like military hardware and even 200nm nodes will do as India uses for some of their military hardware.

China already can do 28nm nodes and trying to deliver commercial scale 14nm and 7nm. Lab level production has already been done for over two years. They cannot yet get it to commercial scale with controlled costs though. 28nm is already plenty for equipment. Even 280nm is acceptable. It's just 10cm^3 more bulk maybe.

What China did in meantime to overcome the volume issue is stacking and bonding techniques. Even Samsung is applying new bonding and stacking techniques following this path since it makes their products even more efficient on at least space.
 
.
lol 5G telecommunication does not depend on 7nm nodes or even 14nm nodes.

Huawei's advanced unique 5G chips which are still unsurpassed by others are not allowed to be fabricated by TSMC and no Chinese foundry can make those 5G chipsets. But they still hold all the patents on dedicated 5G chips and the end result is still clear.

China's 5G rollout is many times greater than Europe and USA's combined until only recently when western Europe and USA caught up. Speeds are still greater in China and utilization. 5G has been operating on farms, construction, mines, street cleaning vehicles and of course phone users since two years ago. They are barely reaching phone users in western Europe and USA now. The speeds are nothing comparable and already China has launched two separate 6G technology testers once in 2020 and one this year.

5G requiring 7nm nodes is absolute bullshit. The equipment is not a smartphone and limited by space. 5G equipment is like military hardware and even 200nm nodes will do as India uses for some of their military hardware.

China already can do 28nm nodes and trying to deliver commercial scale 14nm and 7nm. Lab level production has already been done for over two years. They cannot yet get it to commercial scale with controlled costs though. 28nm is already plenty for equipment. Even 280nm is acceptable. It's just 10cm^3 more bulk maybe.

What China did in meantime to overcome the volume issue is stacking and bonding techniques. Even Samsung is applying new bonding and stacking techniques following this path since it makes their products even more efficient on at least space.
Huawei had successfully completed a 5G pilot project in Pakistan and is all set to launch 5G all over the country middle of this year.

And SMIC has already achieved mastery over lithography for 14nm chips. 7nm and lesser are next in line of achievements.
 
.
Huawei had successfully completed a 5G pilot project in Pakistan and is all set to launch 5G all over the country middle of this year.

And SMIC has already achieved mastery over lithography for 14nm chips. 7nm and lesser are next in line of achievements.

7nm experimental processes using a new form of DUV is already done in China since 2021. They just cannot scale it and take it from laboratory to commercial production because of cost and complexity involved. Which means a few to a lot of new innovation and discoveries required to make this possible.

For an example, it is very easy to develop and make a certain high end type of hypersonic aircraft for USA and China. However it requires special machines working 100 hours to fabricate certain parts and material use is immense. Money is unaffordable so only can produce 10 every year at full scale production and expensive too to bankrupt the country even. So if you want 100 produced a year so the weapon can be used more realistically against more targets, then your engineers need to find alternative methods.

Same applies to every complex technology industry.

I think 7nm for Chinese foundries and there are now around 5 and dozens more being set up and organizing but not even started working, it may take several years at least to decade or more. No one knows. It is almost like creating positive EROEI fusion... okay lol maybe not that hard but definitely up there. For 7nm nodes and smaller, only Netherlands has EUVL technology and only a few Japanese and one Korean company have the optic equipment and precision control machine tools while only Taiwan previously had the total manufacturing knowhow to use all that and actually produce end product. Now Japan and Korea also are at that TSMC level.

Good news is Chinese wafer bonding and atom stacking technology was leading and can sort of compensate a tiny bit (even if only slightly) but still doesn't offer Chinese foundry and therefore supply the same competitiveness at smartphone and personal computer level for sanctioned company Huawei. They have moved to other fields and focused on their core competency of telecommunication technology and equipment along with chip design which is still world leading - first 7nm design, first 5G dedicated ship, first 5nm node design. So they lose overseas phone market but that loss they redirect into new field of new energy vehicles which they hope may bring more income.

Bad news for Chinese foundry is no commercial level 7nm solution in sight without TSMC. However the cost of 5nm is exponentially greater and 2nm is even higher to the point that device cost may make 2nm a rarely visited option when it is ready. At the moment the leading fabs in east asia are working on 2nm in lab level already.

Good news is 2nm is atomic limit and new alternatives are required. China has been investing heavily in alternative principle methods to silicon based integrated circuit technology. Other major player here is USA, Japan, UK, and I will also assume South Korea too although they are not clear about it they are certainly highly capable.


poorly translated but you get the idea. The new seemingly promising material was graphene but Chinese Academy of Sciences leaks suggest graphene is dead end and some other materials have been showing promise. Investing in the next or investing everything to try and only catch up in 1 to 10 years time. I don't know. It is a balance. Only 5% of overall production requires competitive top nodes... usually gaming personal devices must have. For military stuff, even India can produce their own chips of 240nm and next for them is I think 96nm production process based on 1990s era foundry equipment that are allowed to be sold to them. Cars were typically 24nm nodes a few years ago. Other equipment can really make do with anything beyond credit card level chips.

They do not allow anyone to break into it with independent policy. India will not be allowed any more than China is not allowed. But India is not even trying except with Modi's joke of giving some foreign company billions of dollars to set up production in India which no one even bothered to recognize because it shows how ignorant about things Modi and his political colleagues are. At the end of the day they control production and it is not like Trump and Indian beliefs that if you have production there you will somehow learn everything by osmosis. They will still have nothing even if someone opens shop. It will never be allowed to be learned for free for india or used by and production controlled by India for its own use. They don't understand how the cabal works yet because they are currently the useful idiot role. Some Indians however have long ago woke up and do see the reality.
 
Last edited:
. .
lol 5G telecommunication does not depend on 7nm nodes or even 14nm nodes.

Huawei's advanced unique 5G chips which are still unsurpassed by others are not allowed to be fabricated by TSMC and no Chinese foundry can make those 5G chipsets. But they still hold all the patents on dedicated 5G chips and the end result is still clear.

China's 5G rollout is many times greater than Europe and USA's combined until only recently when western Europe and USA caught up. Speeds are still greater in China and utilization. 5G has been operating on farms, construction, mines, street cleaning vehicles and of course phone users since two years ago. They are barely reaching phone users in western Europe and USA now. The speeds are nothing comparable and already China has launched two separate 6G technology testers once in 2020 and one this year.

5G requiring 7nm nodes is absolute bullshit. The equipment is not a smartphone and limited by space. 5G equipment is like military hardware and even 200nm nodes will do as India uses for some of their military hardware.

China already can do 28nm nodes and trying to deliver commercial scale 14nm and 7nm. Lab level production has already been done for over two years. They cannot yet get it to commercial scale with controlled costs though. 28nm is already plenty for equipment. Even 280nm is acceptable. It's just 10cm^3 more bulk maybe.

What China did in meantime to overcome the volume issue is stacking and bonding techniques. Even Samsung is applying new bonding and stacking techniques following this path since it makes their products even more efficient on at least space.
Honestly, 5G is a stupid and overrated buzzword often repeated by Chinese mostly. 5-G in smartphone does not make sense at all because even with 3G most of the applications are satisfied. For remaining even 4G is an overkill. I guess a lot of these use case are also cultural. Chinese typically love to do every last thing on their phones, including watching movies. I mean, I tried it once but the headache it induces is so bad that its not even worth trying. I have seldom seen people seriously trying to do that on a mobile phone. Mostly its on tablets or laptop and then they switch to wifi which is always cheaper, faster and battery charge preserving. The only people I have seen been engrossed in watching long movies on phones over cellular network are asians and I guess Chinese. No wonder mobile network is more popular in China. And lets not get started on mobile games. Chinese love love to play even a game like league of legends on mobile. I cannot even imagine how can any one enjoy playing such a game on phone form factor.

Apart from human oriented use-cases, there are many machine-to-machine communication use cases like surgery (yeah LOL! I want to do remote surgery over wireless network of all things), sensor networks which cool kids called "IoT" these days, self driving vehicle to name the main use cases. For self driving vehicles, again why you will need a cellular network in the first place if you want to drive to anywhere and when the vehicle is stationary, you have dedicated WiFi. For sensor network, 5G is awefully power hungry. For stationary application, you have network over powerlines. In a nutshell, 5G is never a big thing in most of west because there are alternatives and 5G does nothing well enough. Lastly 5G needs denser towers which makes it expensive.
 
.
Honestly, 5G is a stupid and overrated buzzword often repeated by Chinese mostly. 5-G in smartphone does not make sense at all because even with 3G most of the applications are satisfied. For remaining even 4G is an overkill. I guess a lot of these use case are also cultural. Chinese typically love to do every last thing on their phones, including watching movies. I mean, I tried it once but the headache it induces is so bad that its not even worth trying. I have seldom seen people seriously trying to do that on a mobile phone. Mostly its on tablets or laptop and then they switch to wifi which is always cheaper, faster and battery charge preserving. The only people I have seen been engrossed in watching long movies on phones over cellular network are asians and I guess Chinese. No wonder mobile network is more popular in China. And lets not get started on mobile games. Chinese love love to play even a game like league of legends on mobile. I cannot even imagine how can any one enjoy playing such a game on phone form factor.

Apart from human oriented use-cases, there are many machine-to-machine communication use cases like surgery (yeah LOL! I want to do remote surgery over wireless network of all things), sensor networks which cool kids called "IoT" these days, self driving vehicle to name the main use cases. For self driving vehicles, again why you will need a cellular network in the first place if you want to drive to anywhere and when the vehicle is stationary, you have dedicated WiFi. For sensor network, 5G is awefully power hungry. For stationary application, you have network over powerlines. In a nutshell, 5G is never a big thing in most of west because there are alternatives and 5G does nothing well enough. Lastly 5G needs denser towers which makes it expensive.

Eh 5G does have its advantages. Is it worth the trouble, well we won't know for sure I guess. Like you said, cultural tendencies do factor in.

5G however is short range and requires a lot of towers. This is truly its actual biggest problem. The other things you said are kind of focusing on making actually interesting new fields as questionable. Well I guess the west can skip all that then.

6G at the moment is only experimental and many barriers need to be overcome to make it realistic practical and cost effective. 5G is something that one can go without of course. It is only a nice to have. A country can function perfectly with 3G networks only.
 
.
7nm experimental processes using a new form of DUV is already done in China since 2021. They just cannot scale it and take it from laboratory to commercial production because of cost and complexity involved.
In short, China cannot manufacture 7nm chips. Simple.

For an example, it is very easy to develop and make a certain high end type of hypersonic aircraft for USA and China. However it requires special machines working 100 hours to fabricate certain parts and material use is immense. Money is unaffordable so only can produce 10 every year at full scale production and expensive too to bankrupt the country even. So if you want 100 produced a year so the weapon can be used more realistically against more targets, then your engineers need to find alternative methods.
False and wrong on every last detail. Most countries cannot develop a scramjet needed to keep a hypersonic missile powered in atmosphere. So a hypersonic cruise missile becomes impossible. Secondly, most countries lack the infrastructure to test hypersonic vehicles in wind tunnels. So most countries can not even test a design and let alone test a prototype. There are only handful of countries which have such infrastructure and out of these only 3 or may be 4 actually need such weapons: namely, USA, Russia, China and perhaps India. All of them are making progress in this field. Russia has deployed some and is very close to deploy the rest. USA is dragging its feet but it has solved all the technological issues. Being a democracy, it will spend too much time deciding to invest in deployment with endless debate and finally it will get it done. China has a functional HGV but it is struggling with SCRAMJET engine design and will perhaps steal or use that from Russia. India has tested SCRAMJET prototype but it is no where near to run that engine for a long enough period to power a vehicle for big enough range. HGV is simply not on its list of technologies because till now they believed that ballistic missiles are more than enough for their need against Pakistan and China. With Chinese mid-course interception technology finally maturing, it will also need to jump on HGV development. Let see when they decide to do it.

In a nutshell, no, those who cannot do hypersonic weapons cannot do it AT ALL unless helped by an external partner.
Same applies to every complex technology industry.
Biggest mistake armchair analysts do. Every technology is different enough to be well... different.
 
.
5G however is short range and requires a lot of towers. This is truly its actual biggest problem. The other things you said are kind of focusing on making actually interesting new fields as questionable. Well I guess the west can skip all that then.
The thing is, just because you can do something does not mean you should do that thing. China needs to break away from vice hold of likes of Qualcomm so it is doing what it is doing. Rest of the world still does not need to do it because none of them are interested in decoupling from USA or setting up an entire mobile stack of their own.
 
.
It's becoming increasingly evident that some in the West have become drunk on anti-Russian and anti-Chinese rhetoric. These are those obsessed with the West not losing its dominance over the world. Not all Westerners are like these ones, but the common man in the West isn't the one being represented by its government. Instead the once touted freedoms and liberties of the Westerners is now blatantly trampled upon under the guise of National Security, or Wokeness, or some other sordid nonsense.
 
.

UK even admits they only banned Huawei because they were asked to by American hegemonic influence and there was absolutely zero evidence given for security concerns.

In short, China cannot manufacture 7nm chips. Simple.


False and wrong on every last detail. Most countries cannot develop a scramjet needed to keep a hypersonic missile powered in atmosphere. So a hypersonic cruise missile becomes impossible. Secondly, most countries lack the infrastructure to test hypersonic vehicles in wind tunnels. So most countries can not even test a design and let alone test a prototype. There are only handful of countries which have such infrastructure and out of these only 3 or may be 4 actually need such weapons: namely, USA, Russia, China and perhaps India. All of them are making progress in this field. Russia has deployed some and is very close to deploy the rest. USA is dragging its feet but it has solved all the technological issues. Being a democracy, it will spend too much time deciding to invest in deployment with endless debate and finally it will get it done. China has a functional HGV but it is struggling with SCRAMJET engine design and will perhaps steal or use that from Russia. India has tested SCRAMJET prototype but it is no where near to run that engine for a long enough period to power a vehicle for big enough range. HGV is simply not on its list of technologies because till now they believed that ballistic missiles are more than enough for their need against Pakistan and China. With Chinese mid-course interception technology finally maturing, it will also need to jump on HGV development. Let see when they decide to do it.

In a nutshell, no, those who cannot do hypersonic weapons cannot do it AT ALL unless helped by an external partner.

Biggest mistake armchair analysts do. Every technology is different enough to be well... different.

In your ramblings you missed this

1643187097117.png


I used that as a manufacturing example to show there is a big difference between lab success 7nm node fabricated and commercial. There is a difference between able to make something commercial and making something succeed commercially. Indeed China requires years to make 7nm for commercial level production rate.
 
.
The thing is, just because you can do something does not mean you should do that thing. China needs to break away from vice hold of likes of Qualcomm so it is doing what it is doing. Rest of the world still does not need to do it because none of them are interested in decoupling from USA or setting up an entire mobile stack of their own.
For you, 2G is enough, :omghaha: :omghaha: :omghaha:
 
.

Latest posts

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom