'Death Squads' in Swat?

[waraich66]

"Attacking the G.O.P and its military is an attack on the crusader forces of america."

And there you have it.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is an irhabist. The words are clear. Unless the GoP turns its weapons and proxy warriors loose on the CRUSADERS you will be the righteous targets of these men and their mouthpieces.

Should C.O. feel his religious rights abridged and take up arms against the state in defense of such, he and his kind should be shot like curs for threatening the public safety.

For his comments here, he should be banned. He is your enemy and the above comment makes clear which side of the fence he stands on.

OTOH, America will surely become your enemy if this is the view that your citizens decide to embrace. Do so bravely and proudly, if so. Make clear your hatred of all things America and be prepared to give unremitting war to our nation that we may have no doubt as to our enemies.

Now S2 you can see what muslims even citizen of US and UK are against their war in Afghanistan, it mean this war can be spread inside America and UK any time, your sitting on bomb.

 

[Conscientious objector]

The US invasion and the GoP's support for that invasion, including the deployment of troops to attempt to halt cross border Taliban attacks and movement, was responsible for the Taliban uprising in Pakistan.

O.K Im glad you acknowledge that the initial objective of the TTP was not to overthrow the G.O.P or to destabilise Pakistan.

BUT, that does not mean that the Taliban uprising itself was justified.

Well I would have to disagree.

If you send police squads into a lawless area to try and clamp down on crime, and the criminals decide to band together and recruit even more locals into their gangs and start attacks against the entire state for sending in the police, you don't blame the government for deploying the police and call the criminals 'heroes' and 'defenders of their territory'.

1)On who's authority were the troops sent in? Dictator Musharaf's? So he had no legitimacy according to your standard of being "democratically elected"

2) What was the crime that was being committed at this stage by those who later went on to form the TTP ? It was to wage a jihad against american forces.You consider this a crime and as an agnostic I do not expect you to recognise Islamic injunctions, but the fact of the matter is that this was an Islamic obligation for them.

The Taliban and the tribes that supported them should have stood down when the Army was deployed and the State of Pakistan took a particular position in the WoT.

Did Musharaf opt for a referendum which leads you to the assertion that the state of Pakistan took this decision? This decision was Musharafs and as Ive already pointed out he did not have the legitimacy to make such decisions in the first place.

I said in another thread, there is no country in the world where people are happy with every single policy put in place by their governments, but the answer to unhappiness with government policy is not to take up arms and try and overthrow the state through violence and chaos against combatants and non-combatants alike, but to use whatever peaceful means the system offers to affect change.

Well this particular decision was one which involved physically attacking a portion of the population, is it any wonder that some of those under attack would decide to resist?

The latter is what the lawyers did (though they have of late put themselves to shame with their own lawless acts) as did the media and as did the political parties led by Nawaz and BB (with Nawaz, though I do not care for him, actually doing so in a honorable and independent fashion). .

The lawyers were not being bombarded by helicopter gunships or being captured and sold to the americans.

The Taliban should have organized as a political movement against the policies of Musharraf.
Given the amount of respect they enjoyed (rightfully or not, because of their 'legend' in Pakistan) they would have been a significant political force in several Pashtun areas.

That was not a realistic option considering the circumstances and the declaration of war issued against them by the musharaf regime on the orders of the americans.

They instead chose a criminal path, and a path of confrontation with the State, so they are still to blame for all the violence and instability that followed.

It may be a crime to defend your self in your secular law books but Islam allows the people to take up arms against an unIlsamic government.You are blaming those who reacted to the initial aggression rather than the aggressors themselves.

We are a nation, we have a State, we have a government (currently democratically elected and may it remain so) - as citizens we MUST owe allegiance to the State and abide by its constitution and policies over all else.

The allegiance of Muslims is to Islam first and foremost, unIslamic governments do not deserve any allegiance.

Yes, you can attempt to amend the constitution to make it 'more Islamic' or 'less Islamic', and get 'your people' into power to enact the policies you prefer, but you must do so through the established systems and processes.

Established by who? How can you expect people who do not recognise the legitimacy of such systems to work in accordance with them?

At the end of the day there is no room for Mullahs, nationalist rabble-rousers and other demagogues to take the law into their own hands and act against the state.

Whilst puppet generals and criminal secular politicians are free to do as they please????

 

[s90]

What was the crime that was being committed at this stage by those who later went on to form the TTP ? It was to wage a jihad against american forces.You consider this a crime and as an agnostic I do not expect you to recognise Islamic injunctions, but the fact of the matter is that this was an Islamic obligation for them.

I think im gonna be sick today,wahabi folks here,Oh really? how many attacks TTP claimed to have done against american forces in Afghanistan?

Maybe your jihadis mistook Pakistanis as Americans.

It may be a crime to defend your self in your secular law books but Islam allows the people to take up arms against an unIlsamic government.You are blaming those who reacted to the initial aggression rather than the aggressors themselves.

I know that already because thats what wahabism teaches,Philippines,southern Thailand and now Nigeria are good examples.

And your from UK so u dont know any ground reality here.

 

[TaimiKhan]

I don't quite understand what your getting at here.How can you expect the TTP to work for peace inside Pakistan when they are being hunted and killed by the G.O.P ? Their objective was not initially to destabilise Pakistan, it was only after the G.O.P repeatedly attacked them at the behest of the americans that they took up arms against the G.O.P in self defense.In order for peace to prevail the one who is the aggressor needs to cease all hostilities before any talk of peace.The onus is on the G.O.P not the TTP.

Dude you seriously need to study & do some research before trying to be an expert, TTP was established to destabilize pakistan. The war in side Pakistan has been going on since 2002 onwards, TTP came into existence around 3 years back or so. Can you tell me why the Wazir tribe & its fighters are not part of TTP or why do they call themselves just Taliban ?? Why the Wazir tribe fighters ousted the Uzbeks from their area ?? They are also fighting the PA, then why aren't they under the TTP ?? TTPs activities are solely against Pakistan to destabilize it on behalf of nations hostile to Pakistan. The Wazir tribe is also attacking the PA, but they are not going inward to weaken Pakistan or launch suicide attacks killing innocent human beings. The are fighting the PA and also helping thier comrades across the border in Afghanistan. On the other hand TTP is just targeting innocent people & Pakistani cities, they have no contribution in the Afghanistan fight.

So kindly do some research and open up your closed mind.

Again the ruling on martyrdom operations is a matter of ikhtilaf amongst the ulema and obviously the death of non combatants is regrettable.Unintentional means just that without intention.Utmost care needs to be taken to avoid civilian casualties.

There is no "ikhtilaf" against suicide bombings between ulema, the ulema have been unanimous, and those who differ are the ones just like you, brainwashed. Killing of any innocent Muslim or Human Being even a Kafir, let me repeat again Muslim or any other Kafir, is prohibited by any means. If TTP was so much loyal, then the hundreds of suicide bombers used so far to kill innocent Muslims could have been diverted to Afghanistan where they may have been used for good in killing Occupational Forces

Wrong it doesn't mean that at all, the TTP have repeatedly targeted supply convoys on route to Afghanistan amongst other american interests.The G.O.P has made itself a target for the mujahideen by acting as a proxy agent on behalf of america.Attacking the G.O.P and its military is an attack on the crusader forces of america.

Except for just a few cases, nearly all other attacks on NATO supply routes have been done by internal organizations to wake up the NATO & US for their stupid attitude. The so called attacks done by TTP were conducted separately by individuals having no proper instructions from the TTP command. And all the NATO terminal attacks were done by our own security agencies to give a wake up call.

Kindly get your facts right before posting & do some research & reading to open your mind, stop reading & watching the wrong Jihadi Literature before its too late for you.

 

[waraich66]

O.K Im glad you acknowledge that the initial objective of the TTP was not to overthrow the G.O.P or to destabilise Pakistan.



Well I would have to disagree.



1)On who's authority were the troops sent in? Dictator Musharaf's? So he had no legitimacy according to your standard of being "democratically elected"

2) What was the crime that was being committed at this stage by those who later went on to form the TTP ? It was to wage a jihad against american forces.You consider this a crime and as an agnostic I do not expect you to recognise Islamic injunctions, but the fact of the matter is that this was an Islamic obligation for them.



Did Musharaf opt for a referendum which leads you to the assertion that the state of Pakistan took this decision? This decision was Musharafs and as Ive already pointed out he did not have the legitimacy to make such decisions in the first place.



Well this particular decision was one which involved physically attacking a portion of the population, is it any wonder that some of those under attack would decide to resist?




The lawyers were not being bombarded by helicopter gunships or being captured and sold to the americans.



That was not a realistic option considering the circumstances and the declaration of war issued against them by the musharaf regime on the orders of the americans.



It may be a crime to defend your self in your secular law books but Islam allows the people to take up arms against an unIlsamic government.You are blaming those who reacted to the initial aggression rather than the aggressors themselves.



The allegiance of Muslims is to Islam first and foremost, unIslamic governments do not deserve any allegiance.



Established by who? How can you expect people who do not recognise the legitimacy of such systems to work in accordance with them?



Whilst puppet generals and criminal secular politicians are free to do as they please????

CO,

This is not islamic forum , what you are talking is islamic but not as per democratic and islamic republic of Pakistan

Appreciate you for taking risk of ban.

 

[Conscientious objector]

This, ladies and gentlemen, is an irhabist. The words are clear. Unless the GoP turns its weapons and proxy warriors loose on the CRUSADERS you will be the righteous targets of these men and their mouthpieces.

That is not what I said, stop misrepresenting me Rambo
What I actually said was that the G.O.P and its military were targets as long as they were working for the americans. If they were to cease hostilities by not acting as agents of america they would cease to be targets.

Should C.O. feel his religious rights abridged and take up arms against the state in defense of such, he and his kind should be shot like curs for threatening the public safety.

Your are the coward that deserves shooting.Its you and your likes that have caused more destruction around the world than all other nations put together.The sooner your put down the better,like flea ridden mongrel that you are.

For his comments here, he should be banned.

Dictating forum rules now are we? You want to impose your laws here as well.

He is your enemy and the above comment makes clear which side of the fence he stands on.

Your the crusader who invades Muslim lands and kills muslim peoples and you expect muslims to believe you when you tell them Im the enemy.Oh the irony.

OTOH, America will surely become your enemy if this is the view that your citizens decide to embrace

.

Bring it on Rambo bring it on

Do so bravely and proudly, if so. Make clear your hatred of all things America

Not necessarily all things american, only your wars and crimes against humanity etc.Im sure there some decent americans who oppose such things, shame you aint one of them

and be prepared to give unremitting war to our nation that we may have no doubt as to our enemies.

 

[Muradk]

That is not what I said, stop misrepresenting me Rambo
What I actually said was that the G.O.P and its military were targets as long as they were working for the americans. If they were to cease hostilities by not acting as agents of america they would cease to be targets.



Your are the coward that deserves shooting.Its you and your likes that have caused more destruction around the world than all other nations put together.The sooner your put down the better,like flea ridden mongrel that you are.



Dictating forum rules now are we? You want to impose your laws here as well.



Your the crusader who invades Muslim lands and kills muslim peoples and you expect muslims to believe you when you tell them Im the enemy.Oh the irony.

.

Bring it on Rambo bring it on



Not necessarily all things american, only your wars and crimes against humanity etc.Im sure there some decent americans who oppose such things, shame you aint one of them

Both of you heroes cool down lets concentrate on the topic. We all have our opinion but we can learn from each other. No one has the right solution or the answer, So lets discuss it in a proper manner.

 

[Conscientious objector]

Dude

You are a Pakistani, born and raised in Pakistan and you use words like DUDE? It seems american culture has infected your mind.

you seriously need to study & do some research before trying to be an expert,

Would you like to share your qualifications with us, so that we know how much of an expert you are?

TTP was established to destabilize pakistan.

What is your source?

Can you tell me why the Wazir tribe & its fighters are not part of TTP or why do they call themselves just Taliban ??

It seems they have a long standing disagreement with the Mehsud tribe who's men form a large part of the TTP.

Why the Wazir tribe fighters ousted the Uzbeks from their area ??

Uzbeks allied with the Mehsud and therefore were seen as a threat by Wazir's

They are also fighting the PA, then why aren't they under the TTP ??

Regardless of the labels the fact remains that they are at war with the pak army and government.

TTPs activities are solely against Pakistan to destabilize it on behalf of nations hostile to Pakistan.

Can you provide a source or are you just parroting propaganda?

The Wazir tribe is also attacking the PA, but they are not going inward to weaken Pakistan or launch suicide attacks killing innocent human beings.

A difference of tactics, so what? TTP do not target civilians.

The are fighting the PA and also helping thier comrades across the border in Afghanistan. On the other hand TTP is just targeting innocent people & Pakistani cities, they have no contribution in the Afghanistan fight.

Again where have the TTP targeted civilians please provide a source for you allegations.

So kindly do some research and open up your closed mind.

Thanks for the advice maybe you should consider the same?

There is no "ikhtilaf" against suicide bombings between ulema,

Which Ulema have you consulted or studied under for you to make this absurd statement. I have read the fatwas myself so don't make up rubbish.

the ulema have been unanimous, and those who differ are the ones just like you, brainwashed. Killing of any innocent Muslim or Human Being even a Kafir, let me repeat again Muslim or any other Kafir, is prohibited by any means

.

Stop ranting, your not making sense. I have not claimed killing civilians is allowed, in fact I have condemned the killing of civilians regardless of them being Muslim or non Mulsim on many occasions.

If TTP was so much loyal, then the hundreds of suicide bombers used so far to kill innocent Muslims could have been diverted to Afghanistan where they may have been used for good in killing Occupational Forces

The G.O.P and the PA by extension are the same as the occupation forces.

Except for just a few cases, nearly all other attacks on NATO supply routes have been done by internal organizations to wake up the NATO & US for their stupid attitude.

Any credible source ?

The so called attacks done by TTP were conducted separately by individuals having no proper instructions from the TTP command.

Its no good posting stuff without proof I could make a whole host of allegations but who cares if I have nothing to back what Im saying?

And all the NATO terminal attacks were done by our own security agencies to give a wake up call.

I think at this stage I have to inform you that your talking rubbish

Kindly get your facts right before posting & do some research & reading to open your mind, stop reading & watching the wrong Jihadi Literature before its too late for you.

Can you tell me which literature you read to form your opinions.Its not the jhang news paper is it?

 

[TaimiKhan]

You are a Pakistani, born and raised in Pakistan and you use words like DUDE? It seems american culture has infected your mind.




Would you like to share your qualifications with us, so that we know how much of an expert you are?




What is your source?



It seems they have a long standing disagreement with the Mehsud tribe who's men form a large part of the TTP.



Uzbeks allied with the Mehsud and therefore were seen as a threat by Wazir's



Regardless of the labels the fact remains that they are at war with the pak army and government.



Can you provide a source or are you just parroting propaganda?



A difference of tactics, so what? TTP do not target civilians.



Again where have the TTP targeted civilians please provide a source for you allegations.



Thanks for the advice maybe you should consider the same?




Which Ulema have you consulted or studied under for you to make this absurd statement. I have read the fatwas myself so don't make up rubbish.


.

Stop ranting, your not making sense. I have not claimed killing civilians is allowed, in fact I have condemned the killing of civilians regardless of them being Muslim or non Mulsim on many occasions.



The G.O.P and the PA by extension are the same as the occupation forces.




Any credible source ?



Its no good posting stuff without proof I could make a whole host of allegations but who cares if I have nothing to back what Im saying?



I think at this stage I have to inform you that your talking rubbish





Can you tell me which literature you read to form your opinions.Its not the jhang news paper is it?

Come to Pakistan, you will get all the sources, credible ones, and will also see what TTP has done & is doing. By sitting abroad or spending most of your time abroad you are not in touch with reality.

And by the way for my main sources & why did i write the rubbish (in your thinking), i have very credible ones, people who are right in the middle of this whole thing & who have fought your takfiri brothers.
So don't question my sources, kindly check up yours.

And yea i do have lot of sources available to post them over here, but looking at your state of sick mind can't paste as it would be a waste of your precious time.

If you had been defending the Taliban fighting in Afghanistan, fine with me as i myself support them & hate the americans or westerns who are killing innocent Muslims, but by siding with TTP, you are same as the people who cut the heads of innocent human beings, who kidnap for ransom and who kill innocent human beings with suicide bombers.

 

[TaimiKhan]

CO, kindly pick up international newspapers, read how many suicide attacks have been done in Pakistan, how many innocent human beings have been killed in them.
And as for TTP, do check out how they are being funded & from where.

Plus, do some research on how many drone attacks have been done in which areas & then check them out with the TTP held areas. Hope so you can use Google Earth.

And i am not talking about Jang Akhbar or Mushriq or Aaj or Express or Nawai Waqat, rather proper international newspapers & news agencies like AFP, Reuters etc etc.

And just wanted to tell you that I live a KM away from all the NATO terminals which have been attacked, plus many times a month or at least once a week one or two rockets launched by your takfiri brothers zoom pass directly over my home and i have to run to my room and hold my little girl & get my family downstairs. So don't tell me how it feels or what the reality is. i have seen this sshhitt. And yea my home town is right beside the war zone & 500 meters away all night & day long artillery guns keep blazing and shells zoom over my ancestral home, and I know very well what the local people feel about your takfiri brothers & what is said about your brothers. So do come, will take your there to show you how it is & what it is.

 

[All-Green]

It is a typical tactic, i say let her come up with the evidence and not Army.
She is accusing in this case so onus lies on her to go to the courts with the evidence.

This was expected from the SWATIs as well since many families would want to kill the rascals who caused their kin to be butchered like mere sheep.
I heard from a person who lived near Mingora's central square how the people were butchered everyday by TTP as agents or such and the tales were horrible.

Do you honestly think the people of SWAT will not want to kill those whom they know were the eyes and ears of TTP after what the TTP did to SWATIs...and if they catch a proven member of TTP, what would they do?
I think that the people in these areas are boiling with rage over the TTP atrocities and would resort to such revenge if the opportunity arises, it is a natural reaction.

The answer is known to all of us that it is indeed very much possible for SWATIs to kill the TTP goons now that their strength is broken, the question remains whether Asma and company once again are just doing a routine publicity stunt to grab attention now that their favourite slogan of down with TTP has been realized and they have nothing else to say in this matter....
or someone behind them wants to tie the hands of military and hinder the operation cleanup since it is hurting a party which has a lot of cash to help its cause and pays its fighters many times that of an Army soldier.
This could well be the work of a proxy of TTP to malign Army and create hurdles of a different sort.
Is it not too soon to be talking about such things when we all know that chaos and confusion have been prevalent in SWAT for a good couple of years and operation is even now underway?
Still if there is evidence, let her bring it to the courts instead of becoming the heroine she pretends to be.

The TTP had a lot of cash and we all know how the money makes people talk, i truly hope this matter is investigated and Asma Jahangir is taken to task if my fears about her motives are real.

I am sure Army could have killed Maulvi Omar etc. and who would have questioned whether they killed him in encounter or after capturing him?
Actually he deserves to be stoned to death but still he is captured for information and Army has handled its duties in the best of manners.

Regarding the mass graves, what a brilliant thing to base an accusation on.
If in a firefight Army kills 20 TTP in a fight and buries them, it can be dug up after 2 years and called a crime?
We forget it was a war and terrorists were killed and could have been buried in mass graves because Army had hundreds of tasks to do besides digging individual graves for the murderers of innocents.
Still i say there are many people out for revenge and can kill TTP collaborators on their own so basing a judgment so soon is very shady on part of Asma Jahangir in blaming the Army immediately.

The situation will become stable in a years time as it is not easy to go back to normal and Army will have to be stationed to help restore the peace and security.
I know any enemy of Pakistan would at this time love for the Army to vacate these areas under such accusations and again use the vacuum created to cause mischief and perpetrate militancy and terrorism.

It will be better for people to give it some time and let the dust settle.

 

[Muradk]

You are a Pakistani, born and raised in Pakistan and you use words like DUDE? It seems american culture has infected your mind.


Hi I served 36 years in PAF and I still use the word Dude and for your Info Dude is not a American word. A person having more knowledge than someone else dont necessary mean he is infected by american culture. It just mean he or she knows what they are talking about and when they talk they give facts.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Apparently the word 'dude' is now haram, just like some people declared 'Vanilla' to be haram.

True story - an American friend and coworker converted to Islam (of his own accord, I am certainly no 'Islamic role model' myself). The interesting thing was that his interest arose after listening to the sermons of some gent on youtube. He then researched the religion, talked to the Imam at a local mosque about conversion, and even memorized all the basic history and practices and prayers for Namaz etc. and practiced Islam for several months.

He eventually lost interest because (among other things) the crowd at the mosque he was at was the likes of 'vanilla is haram' - his last conversation with me was on the issue of how he went into the faith for spiritualism, and was disappointed to find out it was so focused on the material world - this is haram, that is haram - don't say this - don't do that.

I tried explaining to him that he just fell in with some ultra conservative people whose entire idea about Islam was to focus on the trivial details of life, instead of the spiritual, but his mind was made up, due to some other issues as well that I'll leave out.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Except for just a few cases, nearly all other attacks on NATO supply routes have been done by internal organizations to wake up the NATO & US for their stupid attitude. The so called attacks done by TTP were conducted separately by individuals having no proper instructions from the TTP command. And all the NATO terminal attacks were done by our own security agencies to give a wake up call.

taimikhan,

You say you live nearby some of the NATO supply transfer terminals. Is your statement above formed with personal knowledge? Is it really true that attacks on NATO supply terminals are carried out by Pakistani security agencies? Many, many Pakistani guards and bystanders have been killed, haven't they? Would GoP organizations really kill fellow, innocent Pakistani truck drivers, mechanics and guards just to give NATO a wake-up call? Please tell me you exaggerate .....

 

[Spring Onion]

Apparently the word 'dude' is now haram, just like some people declared 'Vanilla' to be haram.

True story - an American friend and coworker converted to Islam (of his own accord, I am certainly no 'Islamic role model' myself). The interesting thing was that his interest arose after listening to the sermons of some gent on youtube. He then researched the religion, talked to the Imam at a local mosque about conversion, and even memorized all the basic history and practices and prayers for Namaz etc. and practiced Islam for several months.

He eventually lost interest because (among other things) the crowd at the mosque he was at was the likes of 'vanilla is haram' - his last conversation with me was on the issue of how he went into the faith for spiritualism, and was disappointed to find out it was so focused on the material world - this is haram, that is haram - don't say this - don't do that.

I tried explaining to him that he just fell in with some ultra conservative people whose entire idea about Islam was to focus on the trivial details of life, instead of the spiritual, but his mind was made up, due to some other issues as well that I'll leave out.

Yeh i remember last year some nerd mulla in Peshawar termed use of cell for women haram other than using these for attending and making a call. And here we go i was so angry that i just said hey mr mulla what do you think for what else we use the cell phone other than making and recieving a call ???