Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sancho]

IRST pods are available, If it is not incorporated directly into the LCA it self.

But pods will ocupy one of the few weapon stations, so not the best idea.

the Metor missiles is pointlessly expensive.

Compared to the American Aim-120. its not the best either to justify its cost.

Selecting for a missile will just leave us relying on a foreign supplier, even more.

I doubt India will buy any of the weapons from Europe to use on the Planes. Instead they are likely to simply modify them to use Indian Missiles. such as the AStra

If Meteor turns out to be as good as expected (more speed, more range than AMRAAM, or R77) it will clearly be worth it! Also LCA will rely highly on foreign weapons, because there are not many indigenous weapons developed so far. Astra and Helenia are a start, but the WVR missile will be foreign for sure (R73, I would prefer Python 5, or Mica IF/IRIS-T), same goes for bombs, anti-ship, or anti-radiation missiles. .

In fact the only advantage the Griphen can have over the LCA is maneuverability. Due to its canards i think. AS design wise they are almost the same.
But if the LCA uses a TV engine then the LCA becomes more agile.

That's what I said, the design is very close but the techs that and weapons that it will get will make the big difference in a2a.
But we need foreign techs and weapons for sure, because when exports are an aim, made in India is associated with cheap only and not with good, or quality. You can see it at Dhruv too, it's for sure a good helicopter, with latest avionics and more cost-effective than others in the class, but the exported numbers are too bad.
With a western partner, LCA MK2 could get way more orders!

So on that note, The Griphen might have some what of minor advantage
Byt not enough to justify it 20 million plus price increase

In a2a I agree, but if u want a better multi role fighter, the Gripen NG have some more arguments.

 

[gogbot]

But pods will ocupy one of the few weapon stations, so not the best idea.

If Meteor turns out to be as good as expected (more speed, more range than AMRAAM, or R77) it will clearly be worth it! Also LCA will rely highly on foreign weapons, because there are not many indigenous weapons developed so far. Astra and Helenia are a start, but the WVR missile will be foreign for sure (R73, I would prefer Python 5, or Mica IF/IRIS-T), same goes for bombs, anti-ship, or anti-radiation missiles. .

That's what I said, the design is very close but the techs that and weapons that it will get will make the big difference in a2a.
But we need foreign techs and weapons for sure, because when exports are an aim, made in India is associated with cheap only and not with good, or quality. You can see it at Dhruv too, it's for sure a good helicopter, with latest avionics and more cost-effective than others in the class, but the exported numbers are too bad.
With a western partner, LCA MK2 could get way more orders!

In a2a I agree, but if u want a better multi role fighter, the Gripen NG have some more arguments.

Arey

dont you get it.

there is nothing the Griphen has that we cannot do ourselves.
What ever tech in the Griphen we can reproduce as we have something very close.

most of out tech programs are second generation now, the tome for R&D is significantly less and we get more for money

India has for too long been the elephant choosing peanuts over the big catch.

the MMRCA is the last foreign plane we will ever induct.

lets become the tiger and go in for the kill this time around.

this is an opportunity to absorb American tech, or supplement European tech

Choose the best one and go for it.


No western partner will help us export anything. The LCA mk-2 cant be exported it uses a foreign engine so it is unlikely, may be the Mk-3 can be exported with the Kaveri Installed

 

[sancho]

Arey

dont you get it.

there is nothing the Griphen has that we cannot do ourselves.
What ever tech in the Griphen we can reproduce as we have something very close.

Don't think that is a realistic view mate, we are on a good way, but still behind most other nations in development of techs!

Look at MMR which should be an indigenous radar and now turns out to be a hybrid with Israeli techs, the AESA radar could follow the same example. EWS is said to be fully Indian, but I don't know much about it, so can't compare it. Kaveri engine not ready without foreign help and only foreign eingines will be used for IAF LCAs, not to forget the weight problems that HAL and IAF wasn't able to solve. They had to pay a foreign company for their help and hopefully for solving that problem. N-LCA - HAL and IN are desperately searching for foreign help to make it carrier capable.

LCA was the right way to go, but we had overestimated our capabilities, especially our experience!
MMRCA and especially every bit ot ToT is needed to improve our industry and get more experience for the future.

No western partner will help us export anything. The LCA mk-2 cant be exported it uses a foreign engine so it is unlikely, may be the Mk-3 can be exported with the Kaveri Installed

As far as I know only IAF LCA MK2 will use foreign engines, the order is for 100 + 50 optional, not for those and all exports. The new interest in Kaveri-Snecma co-development shows that they understood how important an own engine is, be it to export LCA, or for future projects like MCA.
France won't veto any techs as long as we won't compete their Rafale which is not possible, though LCA is a light class fighter and Rafale in the medium class.
We already have jv with Thales and Samtel for avionics, Kaveri-Snecma engine would be the next one, so why should it be impossible to partner with them on Rafale and LCA for exports?

Think about an LCA MK2 for exports, with RBE 2 AESA radar, Kaveri-Snecma engine, Indian EWS, Topsight HMS, Mica IF WVR missile, Astra BVR missile, Helenia anti-tank missile, Exocet anti-ship missile and AASM (even Scalp could be a possibility) and the LCA would turn out to be a 4,5 gen Mirage 2000 fighter, that can share techs and weapons with Rafale
Wouldn't the chances for export be much better than with Indian techs and Russian weapons only?
Wouldn't France benefit a lot too, by sharing, or producing those techs and weapons with/in India?
Wouldn't we benefit of the good foreign relations of France and their long experience in exporting and selling such fighters?
Wouldn't such a share of techs and weapons even attract other nations to buy LCA MK2 and Rafale as a cost-effective high, low mix?

Of course hypothetical, but you can't deny that it would be a win, win situation for both countries as well as for HAL and Dassault. That's why always say, France can turn out to be the best stratigic partner for India, besides Russia, because they have much to offer for India.

 

[RPK]

Rafale : Dassault aurait réduit de 40 % le prix de vente au Brésil - LeMonde.fr

Dassault will reduce by 40% the price of Rafale in Brazil

The aircraft manufacturer Dassault, in competition to supply 36 Rafale fighter jets to Brazil, had to reduce its selling price by 40% to increase his chances, said, Friday, November 6, Liberation. Dassault had undertaken to bring the price one paid by the French army, or 50 million euros each, against an original offer of 96 million.

 

[gogbot]

Don't think that is a realistic view mate, we are on a good way, but still behind most other nations in development of techs!

Look at MMR which should be an indigenous radar and now turns out to be a hybrid with Israeli techs, the AESA radar could follow the same example. EWS is said to be fully Indian, but I don't know much about it, so can't compare it. Kaveri engine not ready without foreign help and only foreign eingines will be used for IAF LCAs, not to forget the weight problems that HAL and IAF wasn't able to solve. They had to pay a foreign company for their help and hopefully for solving that problem. N-LCA - HAL and IN are desperately searching for foreign help to make it carrier capable.

LCA was the right way to go, but we had overestimated our capabilities, especially our experience!
MMRCA and especially every bit of ToT is needed to improve our industry and get more experience for the future.

Dude even the griphen uses a foreign engine. It uses the the same Ge engines that the LCA usese, the griphen uses a significant chunk of foreign systems.

We have used Isralie tech to make our Radar, but we already have it now, we have a radar.

what ToT does the Griphen give that can improve us ?

As far as I know only IAF LCA MK2 will use foreign engines, the order is for 100 + 50 optional, not for those and all exports. The new interest in Kaveri-Snecma co-development shows that they understood how important an own engine is, be it to export LCA, or for future projects like MCA.
France won't veto any techs as long as we won't compete their Rafale which is not possible, though LCA is a light class fighter and Rafale in the medium class.
We already have jv with Thales and Samtel for avionics, Kaveri-Snecma engine would be the next one, so why should it be impossible to partner with them on Rafale and LCA for exports?

Think about an LCA MK2 for exports, with RBE 2 AESA radar, Kaveri-Snecma engine, Indian EWS, Topsight HMS, Mica IF WVR missile, Astra BVR missile, Helenia anti-tank missile, Exocet anti-ship missile and AASM (even Scalp could be a possibility) and the LCA would turn out to be a 4,5 gen Mirage 2000 fighter, that can share techs and weapons with Rafale
Wouldn't the chances for export be much better than with Indian techs and Russian weapons only?
Wouldn't France benefit a lot too, by sharing, or producing those techs and weapons with/in India?
Wouldn't we benefit of the good foreign relations of France and their long experience in exporting and selling such fighters?
Wouldn't such a share of techs and weapons even attract other nations to buy LCA MK2 and Rafale as a cost-effective high, low mix?

Of course hypothetical, but you can't deny that it would be a win, win situation for both countries as well as for HAL and Dassault. That's why always say, France can turn out to be the best stratigic partner for India, besides Russia, because they have much to offer for India.

We already have partners in Israile and Russia. with whom we have a number of Joint ventures.

we dont need to work as a subsidiary for Dassualt.

If they Dassault wants a partner even junior partner, we may see incetives.

also i know the LCA is based on the mirage but its noth a Mirage.

Its much more like the Gripen with its RSS and increased maneuverability, reduced cross section and Carbon composite body

Its a plane in its own right calling it a 4.5 gen Mirage is not right.

 

[gogbot]

Rafale : Dassault aurait réduit de 40 % le prix de vente au Brésil - LeMonde.fr

Dassault will reduce by 40% the price of Rafale in Brazil

The aircraft manufacturer Dassault, in competition to supply 36 Rafale fighter jets to Brazil, had to reduce its selling price by 40% to increase his chances, said, Friday, November 6, Liberation. Dassault had undertaken to bring the price one paid by the French army, or 50 million euros each, against an original offer of 96 million.

They must have removed some features to reduce the price by 40%

 

[sancho]

Dude even the griphen uses a foreign engine. It uses the the same Ge engines that the LCA usese, the griphen uses a significant chunk of foreign systems.

Of course it uses foreign parts too, I never said something else. But they are developing good avionics, radar systems and even fighters for years and have clearly more experience in it. So we can't do anything that they do just like that.

We have used Isralie tech to make our Radar, but we already have it now, we have a radar.
what ToT does the Griphen give that can improve us ?

Normal Gripen is flying for years with the PS-05 radar and as far as I know LCA MK1 has still no radar operational. As I told you before, I am not for Gripen NG exactly because of LCA, but still I admit that in developing of techs they are clearly in front of us.

We already have partners in Israile and Russia. with whom we have a number of Joint ventures.
we dont need to work as a subsidiary for Dassualt.

But Israel can't offer us help in Kaveri development, nor in reducing LCA weight. Russian engines are not as good as western, that's exactly why we go for GE404 and not for RB 33 that we already produce in India. So it's good to have jv with them in some fields, but for LCA problems they are not really helpful.
Btw I never said we should only be a subsidiary of Dassault, I said HAL should partner with them! Using the same weapon pack and techs on 2 different fighters (one Indian, one French, one ligth class, one medium) for export reasons, will reduce costs and help both companies to get export customers.

Its a plane in its own right calling it a 4.5 gen Mirage is not right.

Ok my fault and wrong describtion! What I intended to say is, it could turn out as a more modern and capable, but similar class and similar role fighter as the Mirage 2000 that IAF loves so much. But only if we make it that capable by integrating the best techs and weapons. LCA with R73, or only KAB 500 bombs won't be as good and can't be sold on export markets.

 

[gogbot]

Of course it uses foreign parts too, I never said something else. But they are developing good avionics, radar systems and even fighters for years and have clearly more experience in it. So we can't do anything that they do just like that.

Normal Gripen is flying for years with the PS-05 radar and as far as I know LCA MK1 has still no radar operational. As I told you before, I am not for Gripen NG exactly because of LCA, but still I admit that in developing of techs they are clearly in front of us.

But Israel can't offer us help in Kaveri development, nor in reducing LCA weight. Russian engines are not as good as western, that's exactly why we go for GE404 and not for RB 33 that we already produce in India. So it's good to have jv with them in some fields, but for LCA problems they are not really helpful.
Btw I never said we should only be a subsidiary of Dassault, I said HAL should partner with them! Using the same weapon pack and techs on 2 different fighters (one Indian, one French, one ligth class, one medium) for export reasons, will reduce costs and help both companies to get export customers.

Ok my fault and wrong describtion! What I intended to say is, it could turn out as a more modern and capable, but similar class and similar role fighter as the Mirage 2000 that IAF loves so much. But only if we make it that capable by integrating the best techs and weapons. LCA with R73, or only KAB 500 bombs won't be as good and can't be sold on export markets.

dude you are behind the game and have been uninformed on the LCA and Indian Munitions.

the LCA has an MMR radar with the help of Israeli tech.

ADRE and Dassault have just started to begin work on the Kaveri Mk-2

The Hindu : Front Page : Kaveri project: DRDO gets nod for tie-up with French firm

India has made significant progress in bombs in the last decade since Kargil

The defense sector has matured in the Last decade.
We are significantly more capable today.

We dont need foreign help to sell our exports, we are perfectly capable of marketing Indian defense exports.

 

[freethinker]

India is obviously capable of developing competetive technology but saying that Gripen has no substantial technology to offer is a bit of a stretch.
Sweden has over 60 years of experience in fighter jet production and R&D and has been at the cutting edge of electronics, datalink systems and miniturization for as long. We have domestically produced AIP submarines, stealth littoral warships and other cutting-edge weapon systems.
You wont just get blueprints and source code but also everything you need to start manufacuring and modifying parts domestically.
In the case of the Gripen NG you will also get full access to current and future development which in some areas are years ahead of the competition. That being said i'm sure Rafale and EF also has some interesting technologies to share.

The Swedish offer might not be the best fit from a IAF doctrine point of view but i am fairly certain that the ToT offer is top notch.

 

[gogbot]

India is obviously capable of developing competetive technology but saying that Gripen has no substantial technology to offer is a bit of a stretch.
Sweden has over 60 years of experience in fighter jet production and R&D and has been at the cutting edge of electronics, datalink systems and miniturization for as long. We have domestically produced AIP submarines, stealth littoral warships and other cutting-edge weapon systems.
You wont just get blueprints and source code but also everything you need to start manufacuring and modifying parts domestically.
In the case of the Gripen NG you will also get full access to current and future development which in some areas are years ahead of the competition. That being said i'm sure Rafale and EF also has some interesting technologies to share.

The Swedish offer might not be the best fit from a IAF doctrine point of view but i am fairly certain that the ToT offer is top notch.

Hey no one is gonna disagree that the Griphen NG is top notch aircraft.

its designed to land on roads be rearmed and refueled in 15 min and take of again.

How many planes can do that.

But there are to many fators working against the Griphen.

For starters it uses US tech that Saab cant offer TOT for with our US approval.

Its capabilities are very similar to the Tejas. Both are Lightweight Delta wing RSS planes. and they even use the Same engines.

Its not a carrier aircraft. The IN also has a stake in the MMRCA. IN may get the same aircraft as the MMRCA as that way it can have its service centers in India.

Com-parred to the log term realtions with Companies such as Euro-fighter , Boeing and Dassult. SAAB offers little.

Also the fact that PAF has alredy tested the Griphen is serious sub tractor.

from a pure logistical point of view the Griphen is top notch

but strategically not so much

 

[sancho]

dude you are behind the game and have been uninformed on the LCA and Indian Munitions.

the LCA has an MMR radar with the help of Israeli tech.

Besides that I told you about MMR and Kaver-Snecma engine in post 1279, the problem is, is MMR operational? As far as I know it is not, all weapon tests was done without radar guidance and no BVR missile was tested yet. But please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm happy to see some sources about its latest developments.

India has made significant progress in bombs in the last decade since Kargil

The defense sector has matured in the Last decade.
We are significantly more capable today.

That's totally correct and I never said something else, but we were discussing Indias capability in development of arms and techs compared to western countries like Sweden right? Just like the LCA development shows, although we improved much, we still need help in nearly all areas and that's imo because of the lack of experience.

However, this is MMRCA thread and I think we moved to far from the topic to LCA. So lets go back to topic, or use the LCA thread for this topic ok?

 

[sancho]

You wont just get blueprints and source code but also everything you need to start manufacuring and modifying parts domestically.
In the case of the Gripen NG you will also get full access to current and future development which in some areas are years ahead of the competition. That being said i'm sure Rafale and EF also has some interesting technologies to share.

The Swedish offer might not be the best fit from a IAF doctrine point of view but i am fairly certain that the ToT offer is top notch.

Hi freethinker, can you tell us more about Saabs ToT offer? I find it strnge to offer full ToT and source codes, if the important techs are not swedish like engine, AESA radar and even most of the weapons should be US origin or?

 

[gogbot]

Besides that I told you about MMR and Kaver-Snecma engine in post 1279, the problem is, is MMR operational? As far as I know it is not, all weapon tests was done without radar guidance and no BVR missile was tested yet. But please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm happy to see some sources about its latest developments.

I read an article w while back where it was said that the MMR radar used in the MK-1 was possible due to Cooperation with Elta.

The IOC clearance means that the Aircraft production is supposed to start by the end of the year. AS HAL can only make 8 tejas per year as of now.

I shall try to find the link. but you will have to to take me at my word til then.

That's totally correct and I never said something else, but we were discussing Indias capability in development of arms and techs compared to western countries like Sweden right? Just like the LCA development shows, although we improved much, we still need help in nearly all areas and that's imo because of the lack of experience.

However, this is MMRCA thread and I think we moved to far from the topic to LCA. So lets go back to topic, or use the LCA thread for this topic ok?

i agree but who should we partner with.

We work with the French the Russian and Israile. even the Americans to a lesser extent.
What can SAAB offer compared to those lot.

And also the LCA and MMRCA are very much linked. Both having a huge bearing on the other. We cant see the Big piture of the MMRCA deal unless we put the Indian navy's RFI
and the LCA together with the MMRCA compettition

 

[freethinker]

Hi freethinker, can you tell us more about Saabs ToT offer? I find it strnge to offer full ToT and source codes, if the important techs are not swedish like engine, AESA radar and even most of the weapons should be US origin or?

Gripen rubbishes reports that a large part of the aircraft is US-made and also denies that the GE 414 engine will be subject to us technology transfer or End use Monitoring conditions. “We have about thirty five percent in the C/D. We have a lot less in the Gripen NG. A lot less than thirty five per cent. As we understand it, it’s related to very advanced technology, bought under the FMS (Foreign Military Sales) case, where you buy the stuff directly from the US government. And that goes for US weapons for instance, so if the Indian Air Force buys US weapons, I’m sure they’re going to be subject to End Use Monitoring. But the rest of the equipment, the Direct Commercial Sales, as we understand it, is not subject to End Use Monitoring, “he elaborates, adding, “It’s an American engine. And General Electric have provided a very comprehensive technology transfer package, so I don’t see that being affected.”

Pretty much all key systems such as aesa radar, electronics etc are being developed either in-house by saab or jointly between saab and partners such as Italian Selex Galileo. Tech transfer is 100%.

 

[freethinker]

i agree but who should we partner with.

We work with the French the Russian and Israile. even the Americans to a lesser extent.
What can SAAB offer compared to those lot.

For one thing we are actually giving you the technology, not just letting you use the equipment. The French and the Israelis or Americans wont. The French wont even give you the source codes for their Thales radar (saab terminated their cooperation with Thales btw) so India would have to give all parameters to France before making any changes.
From a technology standpoint neither of those countries you listed has any type of advantage when it comes to fighter jet technology.
Saab has pioneered a lot of the modern fighter jet systems such as datalinks etc which we had on our old Viggen jets long before any other country.

The only competitor with a clear tech advantage is the F35 on account of stealth but that also comes with its drawbacks such as fixed plate aesa radar, super expenisve maintenance, easy to break, limited internal weapon storage and having to deal with American Congress and what not if you want to paint as much as an emblem on the chassis.