Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions
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he-man
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Remember i was saying all along that budget allocation will be a problem due to almost doubling of the deal value??
Well thats real reason for the delay as accepted by antony in feb this year not negotiations.
Negotiation is just happening to bring the price down.
And yeah this deal is just too much considering our current economic situation,,,,i would say we should go for 80 rafales now with option to buy 50-60 in the future if the economy improves,,its the best solution i think.
By 2020-22 economy should be pretty stable and we can opt for more birds then
Well thats real reason for the delay as accepted by antony in feb this year not negotiations.
Negotiation is just happening to bring the price down.
And yeah this deal is just too much considering our current economic situation,,,,i would say we should go for 80 rafales now with option to buy 50-60 in the future if the economy improves,,its the best solution i think.
By 2020-22 economy should be pretty stable and we can opt for more birds then
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he-man
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i have been reading such reports for 2 years now
IND151
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Like I haven't, but I feel the deal will be signed this year.
As @rockstarIN correctly said, it's just another classic of Ajay Shukla.
The article is full of mistakes and baseless claims, that guy has zero idea about IAF matters, but sadly gets his space in the Indian media (for reasons that I simply don't understand), so just ignore it.
When you have the same here by many(if not most) Indian members(and mirrored on the other side as well).. you cant blame the media for not knowing who to ask.
Interestingly though, the Eurofighter had a nice update posted.
Eurofighter: new aerodynamics set for 2014 test flight - 6/25/2014 - Flight Global
halloweene
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It compensates the lack in pitch authority while releasing heavy loads and authority at high AOA. On the other hand, LERX will somehow dsiminish high speed qualities. No free sweets....
sancho
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You can, since forumers (from every origin!) usually state only their opinions in a smaller discussions, while he present himself as an expert on the matter, therefore a reliable source of information. If he posts something on his blog on the other side, it would just be his opinion again. I think parts of the media purposely use him and his statements, knowing that they are wrong, just to use it as sensational news, or as a controversial side in talk shows.
Yes, but nothing new actually. They are testing it for some years and have it as an option for the upgrade roadmap, if any customer funds it, is another question. The uk armed forces commentary blog link it with countering issues after CFT integration, rather than the need to improve maneuverability:
UK Armed Forces Commentary: News from the forces - Check for updates
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sancho
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'There is no moral conflict over this.' Hague defends pushing sales to India while citing inspiration of pacifist icon Gandhi - New Articles - The Independent
UK Ministers in India to 'Strike a Chord' with Modi's Government - NDTV
Either side is looking for a signal of the new government, be it in favour for the Rafale, or if there is a chance for a re-evaluation and that surely will give us higher ground to choose the best offer.
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@ Sancho CFTs affect extrados, a commonly forgotten issue.
sancho
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Google translated:
@halloweene
If you have any chance to talk to the author, please enlight him about the credibility of his source!
Pas d’argent frais pour le Rafale, Asie - Pacifique
@halloweene If you have any chance to talk to the author, please enlight him about the credibility of his source!
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Stuck in Works, Rafale Deal Fails to Take Off
By N C Bipindra
Published: 06th Jul 2014 07:29:56 AM
NEW DELHI: India’s most awaited defence deal for 126 combat planes, expected to be worth nearly `1 lakh crore, may take longer than expected to materialize.
Just over a month after the Modi government got into the saddle, it has now emerged that the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender for which India selected the French Rafale aircraft from the Dassault Aviation stable is still in the works and would take at least another six months to be ready.
However, even readying all papers by December this year would be no guarantee that the contract would be signed within the current fiscal that ends on March 31, 2015, say senior bureaucrats in the Defence Ministry. “The signing may not even happen within this financial year,’’ a top bureaucrat said, noting there were at least three reasons due to which the seven-year-old tender had not materialized into a successful deal.
It has been more than two years, since Rafale beat its closest competitor Eurofighter Typhoon from the consortium then called EADS Cassidian. When French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius was in Delhi last week, the Indian response to his efforts to push the deal through was lukewarm, say officials.
Prime Minister Narendra Modi's likely stopover in Frankfurt and the reported request from Germany for a summit meeting with Chancellor Angela Merkel has further fuelled suspicions that the Germans, who were spearheading the Typhoon Campaign in the MMRCA tender, were partially successful in convincing Modi to rethink the selection of French Rafale.
A senior official said the reason for lack of enthusiasm on India’s part to Fabius’ pitch was not due to a rethink, but due to other factors. The most important being the long-winding negotiations, particularly on the life cycle costs aspect of the Rafale offer, over which former defence minister A K Antony had raised a controversy in February this year.
During the Defence Exposition in Delhi, Antony had said that delays (in the UPA regime) over Rafale deal was due to ‘‘certain issues’’ with Rafale's life cycle costs, which would be the expenditure incurred by India on operations and maintenance if its flies the Rafale plane for 40 years after induction, along with the price of the planes. Since then, India and France—particularly Dassault Aviation and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited—have concluded their part of the negotiations as partners in the venture. Under the tender provisions, Dassault Aviation will manufacture the first 18 of the Rafale for IAF, while HAL will build the remaining 108 in India.
Senior IAF officers, who have dealt with the Rafale acquisition process, pointed out that the delays on the life cycle costs negotiations were due to the fact that this was the first-ever Indian defence deal in which these costs were being worked out. It had also been made mandatory to calculate the life cycle costs before the deal is signed.
‘‘Life cycle cost is an important determinant in deciding with whom the contract would be signed. Even at this stage, the tender process provides for going back to the negotiating table with the second lowest bidder,’’ a former officer, who did not wish to be identified, said. But Typhoon’s costs are prohibitively higher than Rafale, he added.
Another factor troubling the Indian defence ministry is the cost of the MMRCA. When the approval for procuring the 126 aircraft was given by the previous NDA regime in 2000, the cost pegged was `42,000 crore.
‘‘After one-and-a-half decade of that approval, it is but obvious that the cost of the planes would increase and it could in fact double, considering inflationary factors and the Rupee-Euro conversion. Though India has benchmarked the likely price of the planes and the cost increase has been factored in, the necessary approvals for budgetary provisions for the planes would need a fresh sanction," a senior IAF officer admitted. That would mean the new Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) under Modi would have to consider the fresh cost and give a nod to it. That too could take about a month to three months, after the fresh price, based on the benchmarked price, the commercial bids from Dassault Aviation and the cost negotiation are taken into account. But, the CCS meet to consider the MMRCA price is still far away, officers said, noting that Indian government and Dassault Aviation have not even reached the cost negotiation stage yet.
Last, but not the least, this fiscal’s `2.24 lakh crore interim defence budget, especially the `89,588-crore capital expenditure for new assets, has not factored in the 15 per cent down payment that needs to be immediately made if the MMRCA deal is inked. Considering the cost of the MMRCA deal could go up to `1 lakh crore, that would mean at least `15,000 crore of down payment. But the IAF has got only `20,507 crore for its capital expenses this fiscal, under the interim budget.
Though the Defence Ministry has sought a 25 per cent increase in the defence budget that is to be presented by Finance and Defence Minister Arun Jaitley next week, senior ministry officials admitted that they were only expecting a marginal hike to cater to inflation. Unfortunately for the IAF, already about 60 per cent of the capital expenses provided for it this fiscal would go towards committed liabilities, such as contracts it had already signed for in the previous years and it would be left with just about 40 per cent of the funds for new contracts.
Reasons for Delay
The Indian government and Dassault Aviation have not even reached the cost negotiation stage yet
Rs 42,000 crore was the original cost estimate. The cost of the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft may have doubled since the previous NDA regime’s approval in 2000
The new Cabinet Committee on Security under Modi would have to consider and clear a fresh cost. This could take about a month to three months
Rs 20,507 crore the amount sanctioned for the IAF’s capital expenses this fiscal, under the interim budget. The revised costs could go up to `1 lakh crore. This would mean at least `15,000 crore of down payment
Stuck in Works, Rafale Deal Fails to Take Off -The New Indian Express
By N C Bipindra
Published: 06th Jul 2014 07:29:56 AM
NEW DELHI: India’s most awaited defence deal for 126 combat planes, expected to be worth nearly `1 lakh crore, may take longer than expected to materialize.
Just over a month after the Modi government got into the saddle, it has now emerged that the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender for which India selected the French Rafale aircraft from the Dassault Aviation stable is still in the works and would take at least another six months to be ready.
However, even readying all papers by December this year would be no guarantee that the contract would be signed within the current fiscal that ends on March 31, 2015, say senior bureaucrats in the Defence Ministry. “The signing may not even happen within this financial year,’’ a top bureaucrat said, noting there were at least three reasons due to which the seven-year-old tender had not materialized into a successful deal.
It has been more than two years, since Rafale beat its closest competitor Eurofighter Typhoon from the consortium then called EADS Cassidian. When French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius was in Delhi last week, the Indian response to his efforts to push the deal through was lukewarm, say officials.
Prime Minister Narendra Modi's likely stopover in Frankfurt and the reported request from Germany for a summit meeting with Chancellor Angela Merkel has further fuelled suspicions that the Germans, who were spearheading the Typhoon Campaign in the MMRCA tender, were partially successful in convincing Modi to rethink the selection of French Rafale.
A senior official said the reason for lack of enthusiasm on India’s part to Fabius’ pitch was not due to a rethink, but due to other factors. The most important being the long-winding negotiations, particularly on the life cycle costs aspect of the Rafale offer, over which former defence minister A K Antony had raised a controversy in February this year.
During the Defence Exposition in Delhi, Antony had said that delays (in the UPA regime) over Rafale deal was due to ‘‘certain issues’’ with Rafale's life cycle costs, which would be the expenditure incurred by India on operations and maintenance if its flies the Rafale plane for 40 years after induction, along with the price of the planes. Since then, India and France—particularly Dassault Aviation and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited—have concluded their part of the negotiations as partners in the venture. Under the tender provisions, Dassault Aviation will manufacture the first 18 of the Rafale for IAF, while HAL will build the remaining 108 in India.
Senior IAF officers, who have dealt with the Rafale acquisition process, pointed out that the delays on the life cycle costs negotiations were due to the fact that this was the first-ever Indian defence deal in which these costs were being worked out. It had also been made mandatory to calculate the life cycle costs before the deal is signed.
‘‘Life cycle cost is an important determinant in deciding with whom the contract would be signed. Even at this stage, the tender process provides for going back to the negotiating table with the second lowest bidder,’’ a former officer, who did not wish to be identified, said. But Typhoon’s costs are prohibitively higher than Rafale, he added.
Another factor troubling the Indian defence ministry is the cost of the MMRCA. When the approval for procuring the 126 aircraft was given by the previous NDA regime in 2000, the cost pegged was `42,000 crore.
‘‘After one-and-a-half decade of that approval, it is but obvious that the cost of the planes would increase and it could in fact double, considering inflationary factors and the Rupee-Euro conversion. Though India has benchmarked the likely price of the planes and the cost increase has been factored in, the necessary approvals for budgetary provisions for the planes would need a fresh sanction," a senior IAF officer admitted. That would mean the new Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) under Modi would have to consider the fresh cost and give a nod to it. That too could take about a month to three months, after the fresh price, based on the benchmarked price, the commercial bids from Dassault Aviation and the cost negotiation are taken into account. But, the CCS meet to consider the MMRCA price is still far away, officers said, noting that Indian government and Dassault Aviation have not even reached the cost negotiation stage yet.
Last, but not the least, this fiscal’s `2.24 lakh crore interim defence budget, especially the `89,588-crore capital expenditure for new assets, has not factored in the 15 per cent down payment that needs to be immediately made if the MMRCA deal is inked. Considering the cost of the MMRCA deal could go up to `1 lakh crore, that would mean at least `15,000 crore of down payment. But the IAF has got only `20,507 crore for its capital expenses this fiscal, under the interim budget.
Though the Defence Ministry has sought a 25 per cent increase in the defence budget that is to be presented by Finance and Defence Minister Arun Jaitley next week, senior ministry officials admitted that they were only expecting a marginal hike to cater to inflation. Unfortunately for the IAF, already about 60 per cent of the capital expenses provided for it this fiscal would go towards committed liabilities, such as contracts it had already signed for in the previous years and it would be left with just about 40 per cent of the funds for new contracts.
Reasons for Delay
The Indian government and Dassault Aviation have not even reached the cost negotiation stage yet
Rs 42,000 crore was the original cost estimate. The cost of the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft may have doubled since the previous NDA regime’s approval in 2000
The new Cabinet Committee on Security under Modi would have to consider and clear a fresh cost. This could take about a month to three months
Rs 20,507 crore the amount sanctioned for the IAF’s capital expenses this fiscal, under the interim budget. The revised costs could go up to `1 lakh crore. This would mean at least `15,000 crore of down payment
Stuck in Works, Rafale Deal Fails to Take Off -The New Indian Express
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@Abingdonboy @sancho @GesslerStuck in Works, Rafale Deal Fails to Take Off
By N C Bipindra
Published: 06th Jul 2014 07:29:56 AM
NEW DELHI: India’s most awaited defence deal for 126 combat planes, expected to be worth nearly `1 lakh crore, may take longer than expected to materialize.
Just over a month after the Modi government got into the saddle, it has now emerged that the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender for which India selected the French Rafale aircraft from the Dassault Aviation stable is still in the works and would take at least another six months to be ready.
However, even readying all papers by December this year would be no guarantee that the contract would be signed within the current fiscal that ends on March 31, 2015, say senior bureaucrats in the Defence Ministry. “The signing may not even happen within this financial year,’’ a top bureaucrat said, noting there were at least three reasons due to which the seven-year-old tender had not materialized into a successful deal.
It has been more than two years, since Rafale beat its closest competitor Eurofighter Typhoon from the consortium then called EADS Cassidian. When French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius was in Delhi last week, the Indian response to his efforts to push the deal through was lukewarm, say officials.
Prime Minister Narendra Modi's likely stopover in Frankfurt and the reported request from Germany for a summit meeting with Chancellor Angela Merkel has further fuelled suspicions that the Germans, who were spearheading the Typhoon Campaign in the MMRCA tender, were partially successful in convincing Modi to rethink the selection of French Rafale.
A senior official said the reason for lack of enthusiasm on India’s part to Fabius’ pitch was not due to a rethink, but due to other factors. The most important being the long-winding negotiations, particularly on the life cycle costs aspect of the Rafale offer, over which former defence minister A K Antony had raised a controversy in February this year.
During the Defence Exposition in Delhi, Antony had said that delays (in the UPA regime) over Rafale deal was due to ‘‘certain issues’’ with Rafale's life cycle costs, which would be the expenditure incurred by India on operations and maintenance if its flies the Rafale plane for 40 years after induction, along with the price of the planes. Since then, India and France—particularly Dassault Aviation and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited—have concluded their part of the negotiations as partners in the venture. Under the tender provisions, Dassault Aviation will manufacture the first 18 of the Rafale for IAF, while HAL will build the remaining 108 in India.
Senior IAF officers, who have dealt with the Rafale acquisition process, pointed out that the delays on the life cycle costs negotiations were due to the fact that this was the first-ever Indian defence deal in which these costs were being worked out. It had also been made mandatory to calculate the life cycle costs before the deal is signed.
‘‘Life cycle cost is an important determinant in deciding with whom the contract would be signed. Even at this stage, the tender process provides for going back to the negotiating table with the second lowest bidder,’’ a former officer, who did not wish to be identified, said. But Typhoon’s costs are prohibitively higher than Rafale, he added.
Another factor troubling the Indian defence ministry is the cost of the MMRCA. When the approval for procuring the 126 aircraft was given by the previous NDA regime in 2000, the cost pegged was `42,000 crore.
‘‘After one-and-a-half decade of that approval, it is but obvious that the cost of the planes would increase and it could in fact double, considering inflationary factors and the Rupee-Euro conversion. Though India has benchmarked the likely price of the planes and the cost increase has been factored in, the necessary approvals for budgetary provisions for the planes would need a fresh sanction," a senior IAF officer admitted. That would mean the new Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) under Modi would have to consider the fresh cost and give a nod to it. That too could take about a month to three months, after the fresh price, based on the benchmarked price, the commercial bids from Dassault Aviation and the cost negotiation are taken into account. But, the CCS meet to consider the MMRCA price is still far away, officers said, noting that Indian government and Dassault Aviation have not even reached the cost negotiation stage yet.
Last, but not the least, this fiscal’s `2.24 lakh crore interim defence budget, especially the `89,588-crore capital expenditure for new assets, has not factored in the 15 per cent down payment that needs to be immediately made if the MMRCA deal is inked. Considering the cost of the MMRCA deal could go up to `1 lakh crore, that would mean at least `15,000 crore of down payment. But the IAF has got only `20,507 crore for its capital expenses this fiscal, under the interim budget.
Though the Defence Ministry has sought a 25 per cent increase in the defence budget that is to be presented by Finance and Defence Minister Arun Jaitley next week, senior ministry officials admitted that they were only expecting a marginal hike to cater to inflation. Unfortunately for the IAF, already about 60 per cent of the capital expenses provided for it this fiscal would go towards committed liabilities, such as contracts it had already signed for in the previous years and it would be left with just about 40 per cent of the funds for new contracts.
Reasons for Delay
The Indian government and Dassault Aviation have not even reached the cost negotiation stage yet
Rs 42,000 crore was the original cost estimate. The cost of the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft may have doubled since the previous NDA regime’s approval in 2000
The new Cabinet Committee on Security under Modi would have to consider and clear a fresh cost. This could take about a month to three months
Rs 20,507 crore the amount sanctioned for the IAF’s capital expenses this fiscal, under the interim budget. The revised costs could go up to `1 lakh crore. This would mean at least `15,000 crore of down payment
Stuck in Works, Rafale Deal Fails to Take Off -The New Indian Express
amitkriit
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I believe that the MMRCA competition is open for the deserving bidders. France killed it's chances by being too greedy and uncompromising. Don't think money is a problem, but we would like to get the best value for our money. India is not a cash cow and our defence equipment suppliers must quickly realize this fact.
halloweene
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The author is in India... But someone else already did before me...Google translated:
Pas d’argent frais pour le Rafale, Asie - Pacifique
If you have any chance to talk to the author, please enlight him about the credibility of his source!
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