Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sancho]

I wanted reliance to be chief assembly partner too.

And I would have wanted TATA, but that doesn't matter, since MoD and IAF are making the rules for their own reasons and the fact that Dassault is selecting their partners.

 

[sathya]

Not the Ambani-adani bullshit in the thread too. Please.

I don't think what I meant is the crap that u don't like...

 

[ziaulislam]

That's pretty shallow, French are known to have gone through as many as deals with kick backs/corruption. I don't need.to point out all those deals.
Kick backs are common in all deals

Although its my personal believe that it may be less in case of Saudi Arabia as it being an absolute monarchy.
One also has to thing that EFT coukdnt have simply bribed it way in so many countries

 

[rockstarIN]

I wanted reliance to be chief assembly partner too.

It would have lead to them setting up of requisite infrastructure for the job.that investment would have borne fruit later on.

But anyways now I just want the contract to be signed,its already too late.
Each year we waste,we are exposing our pilots to the old mig-21's and 27's and thats bad

Reliance have huge influence in centre govt, be it UPA or NDA. There is high chance of quality/price issues with them as same as Gas.

 

[he-man]

Reliance have huge influence in centre govt, be it UPA or NDA. There is high chance of quality/price issues with them as same as Gas.

Actually they are demanding the gas hike based on international price only.
I agree reliance is not exactly a saintly company but they have the deepest pockets in india and may actually make a dent in defence market.

Hell I just want a private player be it tatas,mahindras or reliance whatever,i couldn't care less

 

[sancho]

At the same time, the EF makes some interesting progress too:

...
BAE Systems is currently assessing the aerodynamic characteristics of conformal fuel tanks (CFTs) for the Eurofighter Typhoon combat aircraft, the company announced on 22 April.

Wind tunnel trials of the twin 'shoulder-mounted' blister tanks are now being held to accelerate the clearance processes for their eventual use on the Typhoon.

The CFTs, which can be fitted to any Tranche 2/3 aircraft, can carry 1,500 litres each to increase the Typhoon's combat radius by a factor of 25% to 1,500 n miles (2,778 km)...

BAE Systems begins new round of CFT trials for Typhoon - IHS Jane's 360

 

[halloweene]

Well.... To be sincere, they need to do it because EFT is unable to release heavy cruise missiles form anyother but wet points

 

[sancho]

Well.... To be sincere, they need to do it because EFT is unable to release heavy cruise missiles form anyother but wet points

Of course, but it's THE game changer capability for the EF, the minute it get CFTs, it will not only be able to do cruise missile and heavy strikes to credible distances like Rafale, but even surpass the performance of Rafale in A2A and CAS roles! It already has the superior flight performance, with with the reduced drag and RCS it will gain much benefits over a Rafale with standard external loads.

As I said earlier, with the delays of the MMRCA on the one hand and the possible improvements on the other, the EF suddenly begins to look more attractive than before. The overall costs might be reduced too, since Storm Shadow, Brimstone and possibly even the AESA might at least partially be funded by the Saudis. Things that earlier required Indian funds, while on the other side HMS, IRST production, Litening integration and maybe even a new PGM might mean additional costs for India and the Rafale.

Personally I think the EF also offers the better potential for a „Silent“ version, with weapon / missile bays, rather than external weapon pods, like Dassault plans for Rafale. CFTs would then be another crucial benefit for such a varient, especially since they offer a useful fuel capacity unlike Rafales CFTs. So they would have a big impact for the EF, but until more partners than just the Brits want it, it might take time.

 

[kaykay]

https://twitter.com/x/status/459337254419595264

 

[halloweene]

Of course, but it's THE game changer capability for the EF, the minute it get CFTs, it will not only be able to do cruise missile and heavy strikes to credible distances like Rafale, but even surpass the performance of Rafale in A2A and CAS roles! It already has the superior flight performance, with with the reduced drag and RCS it will gain much benefits over a Rafale with standard external loads.

As I said earlier, with the delays of the MMRCA on the one hand and the possible improvements on the other, the EF suddenly begins to look more attractive than before. The overall costs might be reduced too, since Storm Shadow, Brimstone and possibly even the AESA might at least partially be funded by the Saudis. Things that earlier required Indian funds, while on the other side HMS, IRST production, Litening integration and maybe even a new PGM might mean additional costs for India and the Rafale.

Personally I think the EF also offers the better potential for a „Silent“ version, with weapon / missile bays, rather than external weapon pods, like Dassault plans for Rafale. CFTs would then be another crucial benefit for such a varient, especially since they offer a useful fuel capacity unlike Rafales CFTs. So they would have a big impact for the EF, but until more partners than just the Brits want it, it might take time.

Well in fact no. Even with CFTs, EFT will still have a much shoter range than a Rafale with 3*2000L external tanks (and remind there were CFT tests on Rafale).
Brimstone integration isn't funded yet (neither scheduled).
Which new PGM? Rafale has a way more variety of A2G weapons than Typhoon.
Btw expect soon a config with 3/4 Storm shadows

 

[Abingdonboy]

Of course, but it's THE game changer capability for the EF, the minute it get CFTs, it will not only be able to do cruise missile and heavy strikes to credible distances like Rafale, but even surpass the performance of Rafale in A2A and CAS roles! It already has the superior flight performance, with with the reduced drag and RCS it will gain much benefits over a Rafale with standard external loads.

As I said earlier, with the delays of the MMRCA on the one hand and the possible improvements on the other, the EF suddenly begins to look more attractive than before. The overall costs might be reduced too, since Storm Shadow, Brimstone and possibly even the AESA might at least partially be funded by the Saudis. Things that earlier required Indian funds, while on the other side HMS, IRST production, Litening integration and maybe even a new PGM might mean additional costs for India and the Rafale.

Personally I think the EF also offers the better potential for a „Silent“ version, with weapon / missile bays, rather than external weapon pods, like Dassault plans for Rafale. CFTs would then be another crucial benefit for such a varient, especially since they offer a useful fuel capacity unlike Rafales CFTs. So they would have a big impact for the EF, but until more partners than just the Brits want it, it might take time.

Rafale is a much safer bet for the future, the French are fully behind it. The EFT consortium has lost all direction and the EFT will as a result NEVER live up to its full potential. Indian and French demands as far as future capabilities/ upgrades go are largely in line with one each other.

 

[sancho]

Well in fact no. Even with CFTs, EFT will still have a much shoter range than a Rafale with 3*2000L external tanks.

For the long distance strikes yes, in A2A or CAS however, the difference won't be that much anymore.

Air superiority

Rafale:

2-3 x supersonic fuel tanks
4 x METEOR
2 x MICA IR


EF:

2 x CFTs
4 x METEOR at semi stealth and low drag stations
2 x IRIS-T

=> further improved flight performance, thanks to drag reduction
=> very low RCS because of limited wing payload

There are basically only the 2 WVR missiles left, that would add to drag and RCS, while Rafales external loads will have a credible impact in these 2 fields!



CAS

Rafale:

2 x subsonic fuel tanks
1 x LDP
2 x triple pylons
6 x GBU 49


EF:

2 x CFTs
1 x LDP
6 x PW IV

=> further improved flight performance, thanks to drag reduction
=> 1000l more fuel than it currently could carry
=> 2 more bombs than it currently could carry with external fuel tanks

The Rafale might have 1000l more fuel, but is far more draggier with that config, which also should increase the RCS too!

Brimstone integration isn't funded yet (neither scheduled).
Which new PGM?

The Saudis haven't fully cleared their weapon package yet, but the Brimstone missiles was one of the weapons they were interested in. The UAE are only waiting for a reason to add AL Tariq to a possible Rafale deal too and now when AASM is in trouble, they surely will pressur Qatar not to take it too. India might have to add SPICE kits to retain precision strike and SEAD capablilty. Most likely the SPICE 2000 similar to M2K, but without AASM smaller versions are likely too and that surely will cost extra.

Well in fact no. Even with CFTs, EFT will still have a much shoter range than a Rafale with 3*2000L external tanks.
and remind there were CFT tests on Rafale

Just that the CFTs of Rafale doesn't hold enough fuel even for A2A roles, only 2300l, while Rafale with 2 Supersonic fuel tanks would have 2500l, with 3 even 3750. EF with CFTs offer 3000l, which equals it's full external fuel load, so no additional fuel needed.
In CAS Rafale with CFTs would still need a 2000l subsonic fuel tank, while EF with CFTs would have enough fuel for most smaller smaller loads, or would just need to add a single supersonic fuel tank. The lack of useful fuel is the reason why you see additional external fuel tanks, on all Rafale concepts with weapon pods, while an EF or the F18 Silent Hornet only need to carry CFTs in most cases.

Rafale is a much safer bet for the future, the French are fully behind it.

Till now I had agreed to it, but things are changing! No HMS, no IRST, no Brimstone, possibly not even AASM anymore (the 1000Kg version is still not funded) and a medicore LDP. On the other side the Saudis can make a difference now, even for India, as explained earlier, by reduced costs of EF.
If the consortium funds AESA and CFTs, the EF changes the game and even gets clear operational advantages!

 

[Sergi]

@sancho: meaning ???

and remind there were CFT tests on Rafale

 

[sancho]

@sancho: meaning ???

He meant that Rafale has CFTs too and actually a far beyond the EF in that regard, since they even did real flight tests with them:

The problem however is, that it's not really neccessary for Rafale to free hardpoints or add fuel, that's why France never fully funded the development beyond tech demo stage and might not go for it until they also go for weapon pods (beyond 2020).
The EF however needs CFTs to carry any useful heavy loads and that makes them far more likely in the coming years (my guess (2017 to 2020), which then will make it far more capable than today.

 

[lingalinga]

But seriously, is there any chance that some of us can open up a company to take up some of this work?
The armed forces are being steered to spend more in domestic equipment. So there is an opportunity.

What a terrific idea. Count me in. You can be the brain of the operation (for obvious reason), I will be the brawn.