Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[rajeev]

I wish India goes for Eurofigher that will be more suited to India strategically.

Though Rafale gives full ToT of gen 4 machine, it will not be worth it. As far as I heard, Rafale has hardly made any dent of selling its planes, that probably is an illustration of its capabilities in regards to other flying birds.

Gripen is not worth, there is no future strategic nor any short term tactful benefit in buying that. It is good machine and relatively cheap but still has less ToT with US permission for anything.

Buying F16 is totally useless for MRCA order because Pak pilots would have learned all that could be learned to use the plane more tactfully and besides it is plane introduced in 1970's.

Mig-35 is not required as we already have 5th gen plane getting built with partnership. Besides, delivery time would rather unpredictable with Russian build.

F18 is also a good alternative, but I am not very sure about US's long term intentions with India. This would be a risk.

Eurofighters are best of the plane and could win airbattle with any of the planes above if met in equal numbers. The biggest advantage with Eurofighters is that we will be allowed to become partner i.e. this would be another avenue to get into another 5th gen plane (besides the partnership we have with Russia for PAK FA)

Eurofighters also have the same problem as Gripen that US has lot of control but Europeans will also have a stake in helping us if a problem arise in future.

I think there is a good chance we will also get into F35 if China/US love/hate relation continues. That would mean 3 different avenues of getting 5th gen planes.

Relative safety in diversity and in future how trends emerge we can choose winners. Personally, I am sick and tired of LCA project that it never comes out.

 

[brahmastra]

I read somewhere that IAF was planning to conceder Mirage 2000/5 for the MRCA competition but they already shutdown the production line.they agreed to reopen the production line of mirage 2000/5 but they want assurance that they will get contract which we cannot do before evaluating other jets.

Rafale is advance than the mirages and we all know that IAF pilots really likes to fly these birds(mirages). so, may be IAF got soft corner for the 'advance version of the mirages'.

Iwould like to see rafale to win the mmrca.

 

[gogbot]

I read somewhere that IAF was planning to conceder Mirage 2000/5 for the MRCA competition but they already shutdown the production line.they agreed to reopen the production line of mirage 2000/5 but they want assurance that they will get contract which we cannot do before evaluating other jets.

Rafale is advance than the mirages and we all know that IAF pilots really likes to fly these birds(mirages). so, may be IAF got soft corner for the 'advance version of the mirages'.

Iwould like to see rafale to win the mmrca.

Rafael, F-18, and Euro fighter does it really matter which one we choose.

IAF wins either way.
All of them are some of the most advanced machines in the world, and a few years from now one will join the IAF.

In fact other than the SAAB Griphen, any of the fighter would be a valued addition to the IAF.

 

[rajeev]

Rafael, F-18, and Euro fighter does it really matter which one we choose.

IAF wins either way.
All of them are some of the most advanced machines in the world, and a few years from now one will join the IAF.

In fact other than the SAAB Griphen, any of the fighter would be a valued addition to the IAF.

I think it matters because we have multiple entry points to develop 5th gen plane.

Eurofighter would be a good avenue to the foot in door for the europe's 5th gen plane and become a partner.

Rafale unforunately is a dying model, there is not enough people that want and over long period France wont be able to sustain it. So if we buy Rafale we will be owing something that a probability of no future.

We already PAK FA in our pocket but we can never guarantee with Russia. If Russia has money issues again, they will also sell same tech to Chinese officially or unofficially and we will be fighting some JXX with similar tech. Currently, Chinese problem is that no major power wants to give them any high tech (except in some cases Russia) and neither would India have the potential to fight Chinese in numbers. Chinese goes for numbers and Indians typically go for quality and I think that trend should remain.

There is a definite possibility that we will also get F-35 as well. And I hope some day we we will have fourth track of 5th gen (our own).

 

[gogbot]

I think it matters because we have multiple entry points to develop 5th gen plane.

Eurofighter would be a good avenue to the foot in door for the europe's 5th gen plane and become a partner.

Rafale unforunately is a dying model, there is not enough people that want and over long period France wont be able to sustain it. So if we buy Rafale we will be owing something that a probability of no future.

We already PAK FA in our pocket but we can never guarantee with Russia. If Russia has money issues again, they will also sell same tech to Chinese officially or unofficially and we will be fighting some JXX with similar tech. Currently, Chinese problem is that no major power wants to give them any high tech (except in some cases Russia) and neither would India have the potential to fight Chinese in numbers. Chinese goes for numbers and Indians typically go for quality and I think that trend should remain.

There is a definite possibility that we will also get F-35 as well. And I hope some day we we will have fourth track of 5th gen (our own).

Frankly at this point we already have 2 5th gen fighter programs.
do we really need another.

Any fighter India gets will largely increase its strengths.

But we have so many different fighters at this point that commonality with existing infrastructure is the real issue.

These are the planes the IAF will operate for the next 20 years.
Su-30 MKI
MIG- 33(super fulcrum)(upgraded mig-29)
Hindustan fighter Mk-2(with kaveri)+ MCA (Kaveri GTX)
Mirage
Pak-FA(1 wing)
FGFA
MMRCA + HF MK1

nearly nine different engines.

frankly Getting the plane that has the same engine as the LCA will be the best move at this point.

So we have
Euro-fighter vs F/A-18 SH-IN

 

[Iggy]

3)India will then have to maintain 6-8 different fighters

Kaiser,

MRCA is mainly for replacing fighters like MIG 23,27 and Mirage so that they can avoid logistical nightmare in the future..

 

[BSF]

2005 thread bumped.........hmmmmmm!

 

[rubyjackass]

This thread started when I was a kid
Anyways the number is 126 right? Not 200 as it was mentioned?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

This thread started when I was a kid
Anyways the number is 126 right? Not 200 as it was mentioned?

126 initial plan and i think later on fallow on orders will fallow so the 200 mark could be realistic.

 

[sancho]

I think it matters because we have multiple entry points to develop 5th gen plane.

Eurofighter would be a good avenue to the foot in door for the europe's 5th gen plane and become a partner.

Actually you just gave me more reasons why IAF should buy Rafale!

UK and ITA are partners in the EF consortium, but they also teamed up with US for 5. gen F35, which leaves only Germany and Spain for a possible co-development. Spain must get F35 at least for their navy, because the VTOL F35B is the only 5. gen fighter that can land on their carriers. So from all EF members only Germany could be left! But Germany can't fund, or produce it on their own and where do you think they will go for a possible partner in Europe? To France and Dassault!!!
Now think about it once again, if the aim of MMRCA would be to find a possible partner for another 5. gen co-development, is EF the best choice from Europe, or Rafale?

Also the next indigenous fighter project could be MCA, which is aimed to replace Jaguars, Mirage 2000 and possibly upg Mig 27. Main capabilities are stealth, precision & special strike missions, BVR and close combat. Other features are, that it should be in the medium weight class, low observable and has advanced avionics.
Except of stealth, these are exactly the same capabilities and features that would describe the Rafale and it also replaces the same Mirage 2000 and Jaguars that Rafale replace in France. So if HAL would search for a co-development partner for MCA, could there be a better partner than Dassault?
Even if we develop it on our own, is there a better fighter to learn from than the Rafale?

F35 for India gets more and more unlikely, because it will come to late for IAF and IN seems to order more Mig 29Ks and the next bigger indigenous carrier will have FGFA.

 

[rajeev]

Actually you just gave me more reasons why IAF should buy Rafale!

UK and ITA are partners in the EF consortium, but they also teamed up with US for 5. gen F35, which leaves only Germany and Spain for a possible co-development. Spain must get F35 at least for their navy, because the VTOL F35B is the only 5. gen fighter that can land on their carriers. So from all EF members only Germany could be left! But Germany can't fund, or produce it on their own and where do you think they will go for a possible partner in Europe? To France and Dassault!!!
Now think about it once again, if the aim of MMRCA would be to find a possible partner for another 5. gen co-development, is EF the best choice from Europe, or Rafale?

Also the next indigenous fighter project could be MCA, which is aimed to replace Jaguars, Mirage 2000 and possibly upg Mig 27. Main capabilities are stealth, precision & special strike missions, BVR and close combat. Other features are, that it should be in the medium weight class, low observable and has advanced avionics.
Except of stealth, these are exactly the same capabilities and features that would describe the Rafale and it also replaces the same Mirage 2000 and Jaguars that Rafale replace in France. So if HAL would search for a co-development partner for MCA, could there be a better partner than Dassault?
Even if we develop it on our own, is there a better fighter to learn from than the Rafale?

F35 for India gets more and more unlikely, because it will come to late for IAF and IN seems to order more Mig 29Ks and the next bigger indigenous carrier will have FGFA.

UK has increased its order for Eurofighter so has Germany. Saudi Arabia placed an order of 79 just recently.

Rafale seems have to lost its niche. It has not got any orders. Yes, there will lot of free tech for India, but you have to remember our problem is to deal with China.

China will produce things in quantity and we donot have resources match in numbers, but certainly we can better quality stuff that would destroy their morale.

Eurofighters are the next planes after F22 currently. So, why not shoot for quality.

Regarding F35, I am confident we will get it. This obama-regime is anti-India, but there will be new government in future. Just like China is a threat to us, it is an emerging threat to US and Europe as well. They need an ally.

We all know for sure that China will be attacking Taiwan and US will learn the lesson of befriending China. US is more like India, where learnt after the incident. India's current job is stay below the radar increase the potency of the economy and military.

Russia is stuck between rock and hard place. China is more threat to Russia and so they wont favor to sell anything important to them, and most Western Europe hate them so they wont be buying weapons. They only have us to sell things to, and so we can be picky in what we choose.

 

[sancho]

This thread started when I was a kid
Anyways the number is 126 right? Not 200 as it was mentioned?

126 are right, but there were reports of 74 optional. Imo it will depend on how much Jaguars will be upg, if IAF only upg 40 like they did with Mig 27, the optional MMRCAs would be a good replacement.

 

[sancho]

UK has increased its order for Eurofighter so has Germany. Saudi Arabia placed an order of 79 just recently.

Not really! They hardly said yes to their tranche 3A order, because of high pressure from Germany, but all reports hints that they won't buy all EFs they wanted to order in tranche 3B and Saudi is thinking about more (or those that normally was ordered from UK), but nothing is ordered so far.

Rafale seems have to lost its niche. It has not got any orders.

Only because of political presure, in Singapur and now in Brasil it reached the final stage, whereas the EF was shortlisted before. And now Brazil seems to order at least 36 with 120 possible and 60 could be ordered by UAE.

Yes, there will lot of free tech for India, but you have to remember our problem is to deal with China.

China will produce things in quantity and we donot have resources match in numbers, but certainly we can better quality stuff that would destroy their morale.

Eurofighters are the next planes after F22 currently. So, why not shoot for quality.

And you think that Rafale is qualitatively inferior to J11 and J10? As gogbot said, all MMRCA would increase the quality level, because they are more advanced than anything that China has, so no doubt about quality in future IAF fleet.
I am not saying EF is a bad fighter, but it is not suited for IAF because we have a comparable fighter with MKI and will get a better fighter with FGFA in the same role.

 

[rajeev]

Not really! They hardly said yes to their tranche 3A order, because of high pressure from Germany, but all reports hints that they won't buy all EFs they wanted to order in tranche 3B and Saudi is thinking about more (or those that normally was ordered from UK), but nothing is ordered so far.
Only because of political presure, in Singapur and now in Brasil it reached the final stage, whereas the EF was shortlisted before. And now Brazil seems to order at least 36 with 120 possible and 60 could be ordered by UAE.

And you think that Rafale is qualitatively inferior to J11 and J10? As gogbot said, all MMRCA would increase the quality level, because they are more advanced than anything that China has, so no doubt about quality in future IAF fleet.
I am not saying EF is a bad fighter, but it is not suited for IAF because we have a comparable fighter with MKI and will get a better fighter with FGFA in the same role.

No, I dont think Rafale is inferior to even JXX by a long shot. But we should be aware whatever things China lays hands or it is able to procure, it will be made in huge numbers. If a war happens between China and India, it will be between Goliath and David.

They may end up have 1500 or so planes and we have only about 800 of which only 300+ are superior to any they have.

Su-MKI is Russian plane, Russia also sells Su-30 MKK to China as well. So, we will be facing them. We need something better than that to take out their air defence.

Rafale is a good choice because we will get full ToT and start with a base and hopefully complete LCA and MCA one day

But among the choices we have got, EF is best in all regards when you compare technical specs.

You have to remember that Saudi may try to interject us in case of war in Pakistan (some form of Muslim patronage) and they will have EF.

 

[Tejas-MkII]

This one is from Gripen...

FORCE - A Complete News Magazine on National Security - Defence Magazine

Saab to give AESA radar with its software code to India
By Vidhi Upadhyay

Just as the MRCA competition enters its trials phase in India, Saab whose Gripen NG is in race, held a press conference in New Delhi, announcing its offering of an even advanced version of the AESA radar with the fighter jet.

Talking to the press in New Delhi, Gripen’s India Director Eddy de la Motte said, “What we are offering here is the AESA radar which comes with an edge that increases its capability manifold times. The radar on the Gripen will be fitted on a swash plate that enables it to rotate mechanically and look behind as well.”

With the swash plate solution, the Gripen NG AESA radar has the ability to a scan angle up to +100 degrees. This will increase the situational awareness and will be used to increase the quality of SAR images. In BVR combat, wide angle scan also allows the aircraft to maintain track on target whilst executing a 90 degree manoeuvre. This minimises closure rate with the target, placing the aircraft in the enemy’s clutter return and still allows full guidance of BVR missiles. Finmeccanica company Selex Galileo and the Saab Microwave Systems, a part of the Saab business unit will be joined in the joint radar development program.