Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[hack]

Exactly, but imo the engine alone won't be such a big point because only 2 MMRCA vendors are able to provide it for LCA and it needs also AESA radar and IRST. Of course it would be an advantage for EF, or F18SH (possibly even for Gripen NG, because of the same GE414 engine), but I think ToT of more techs is the key to MMRCA.
US might provide ToT of the engine, because it is old tech and not used in their latest fighters, but will they also provide ToT of their radars, or IRST, which are latest techs?
I think EF will provide way more ToT than the Americans can, but on the other side much of it won't be proven and ready (AESA radar, a2g capabilities) and more delays is something that we can't afford when it comes to replace the Mig 21s!
We will never get full ToT of F16IN and using F16s with the same weapons against PAF F16s and pilots which knows that aircraft way more, would clearly be a disadvantage.

If you mean weight class, the F18SH is the closest of all MMRCA contenders to MKI and not EF, or Rafale.
If F18SH wins MMRCA it will be mainly a political decision, not because we chose the best fighter that suits IAF.
F18SH is a good fighter, but it will come with the least ToT which was a main requirement, is one of the oldest designs and don't offer much more improvements. Also the costs will be very high, cause it should have the 3. highest unit cost, the maintenance of such a big fighter is expensive too and don't forget that IAF can use nearly no weapons that are in service now and that IAF has no experiance with US fighters, which means more training.

I meant the same class as an air superiority fighter...The F18SH outstrips the Rafale as a A2G fighter.The SH also has the superior radar.Definitely the Super Hornet does not have maneuverability but it was never designed as a A2A fighter.It was designed to smash targets on the ground and that it does really well.

How can you say the maintainence cost of the f18 is the highest because the Brazilian President said so?What else will he say after choosing the more expensive Rafale over the cheaper plane.? On top of everything India needs to start building a relationship with the country who will have the most influence in India's growth.

 

[blueoval79]

Russia ready to help India build its own advanced radar
MOSCOW: As the race to secure the Indian Air Force’s $10-billion tender for 126 combat jets reached the crucial stage of flight trials, Russia, on top of a full technology transfer, is offering India help in building its own advanced radar. This would put India in the elite league of manufacturers of some of the most sophisticated defence equipment.

“We are ready to develop a new advanced radar jointly with India,” said Vyacheslav Tishchenko, head of the Phazotron-NIIR Corporation. The company has built Russia’s first Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, Zhuk-ME, for the MiG-35 fighter, the Russian contender in the IAF tender for the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). Two planes will go to India next month for flight evaluation trials.

Also in the fray are the U.S. F-16 and F-18, the French Dassault’s Rafale, the Swedish Saab Gripen and the Eurofighter Typhoon. Transfer of technology is a prime requirement in the MMRCA tender, but as far as the radar is concerned, Russia alone seems prepared to meet the demand in full. “Out of six-seven countries in the world that have the know-how to build radars for combat jets, only two — Russia and the U.S. — domestically produce the full range of radar components,” Phazotron’s chief designer Yuri Guskov said.

Raytheon, the U.S. company that manufactures radars for the F-18 fighter, has already said it would only transfer “limited” technology “up to the level the U.S. government allows us.”

This means America’s European competitors in the MMRCA tender will also face restrictions on the transfer of technologies sourced from the U.S. companies.

Russia is the only bidder which does not depend on the U.S. for any aircraft technologies, including the radar.

The Hindu : Front Page : Russia ready to help India build its own advanced radar

 

[ironman]

Russian firm offers full technology transfer ​

Monday, Sep 21, 2009

Vladimir Radyuhin

MOSCOW: “We have pledged 100 per cent technology transfer for the MiG-35, including the radar and all its systems,” Tishchenko, General Director of the Russian company, Phazotron, told The Hindu.

“Moreover, if India wants to build its own fifth-generation AESA radar, we could set up a joint venture for the job modelled on the Brahmos Aerospace Ltd. [an Indo-Russian JV that has built the superior Brahmos supersonic anti-ship missile],” he said.

“We are prepared to share with India our 60-year-long experience of designing radars that has gone into building Zhuk-AE, which is as good as any Western radar today.”

The Russian offer could come in handy as India struggles to build an AESA radar small enough to fit into its Tejas light combat aircraft. Russia’s Zhuk-AE is the smallest radar among all entrants in the MMRCA tender.

Even as India recently sourced some avionics for its Russian-built fighter jets from other countries, it has consistently stuck with Russian radars. Phazotron has provided new radars for the MiG-21 and MiG-29 upgrades, while the other Russian radar manufacturer, Tikhomirov NIIP, has supplied radars for the Su-30 MKI fighter.

Aviation experts say the on board radar accounts for 40 per cent of a modern fighter plane’s combat capabilities.

“If India masters the AESA radar technology it would be a milestone achievement comparable to sending a man to space or building a GPS communication system,” said arms export analyst Konstantin Makienko of Russia’s CAST think-tank.

---------- Post added at 10:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 AM ----------

Fed up with this TOT issue..

 

[PakShaheen79]

I can see how desperately Russians need MRCA... But it will surely turn on heat on Boeing and LM to offer something even more lucrative in terms of technology.

 

[duhastmish]

i expect a much - closer game , i think - except for -EF and rafaele ,

russian , and american will go far ahead - over and under the table . to get mrca in their pocket.

 

[ouiouiouiouiouioui]

Yes I agree with you on the Mirage 2000 choice but, I dont think India would wanna go for the F-18 Super hornet because
1)Its comeing from a not-reliable supplier for the F-18
2)India will have to get whole new class of weapons like AIM 9L etc...
3)India will then have to maintain 6-8 different fighters
4)It'll be much easier to go for a Russian plane since there more used to them and wont have to train new pilots for a whole new plane
So there's more of a chance India might go for the MIG-35 than the F-18.

agreed....just club any of these two aircrafts with indian modifications...may be this can come from israel....

 

[jaunty]

Wow what a classic bump

In hindi ''Khali dimag shaitan ka ghar'' (Plz don't tell me to translate this. It won't have the same flavor )

We already have a MRCA sticky thread...!!!

The thread is of 2005. Frankly its a shame that today we are in 2009 and still undecided about the whole deal. It will take at least year or two to decide.

 

[ISRO2]

Sir did russia gave india engine technology yet? The question here is how much we should trust russia. Aircraft carrier blackmail, brahmoss code source threat, never helped india even making a tiny engine yet. Let alone powerful engine. We already investing heavy in pak-fa, buying new su-30MKI's, mig29 upgradation etc etc. Thats already alot. We need something new now. EF or rafael. Thank you.

 

[ISRO2]

And by the way we will get mig35 later even when we dont pick it. If mig35 looses then it doesn't mean its end of road. Anyway mig29 upgradation is upto mig35 level. So in a way we can say after upgradation mig29 bit mig35 level. May be not fully but it will be nearly.

 

[Gabbar]

Russia to begin induction of 5th generation fighter in 2015

Russian Air Force will begin the induction of fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), which it is developing in partnership with India, from 2015, a senior defence official has said. "Beginning from 2015 we will begin the induction of fifth generation fighters. They will have stealth features, greater engine resource, enhanced target acquisition, new weapon suites and airframe different from the present generation of fighters," Deputy Defence Minister, General Vladimir Popovkin said on "Ekho Moskvy" radio.

India is partnering Russia in the joint development and production of the FGFA under an agreement signed in Moscow in 2007 during Defence Minister AK Antony’s Moscow visit. The two nations are expected to finalise the FGFA contract next month during the Russia visit of Antony for the annual session of the Indo-Russian Intergovernmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation. According to earlier reports the FGFA would be developed on the basis of Sukhoi Corporation's secret PAKFA project. Under the understanding reached between the two countries, a lighter twin-seater version of the fifth generation fighter would be developed for India.

 

[ironman]

Race is on for India MMRCA​

Sep 21, 2009
By Neelam Mathews


Flight trials for India’s biggest defense procurement program, the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), are underway. India will acquire 126 aircraft—86 single-seat and 40 twin-seat configurations.

The air force requirement for the MMRCA is based on a maximum all-up weight of 14,000-30,000 kg. (31,000-66,000 lb.). India plans to procure 18 aircraft in flyaway condition and produce 106 locally under license through technology transfer. Delivery starts within 36 months of contract signing and will be completed 48 months later.

The contenders are the Boeing F/A-18, Lockheed Martin F‑16IN, MiG-35, Dassault Aviation Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab Gripen NG (New Generation).

Flight trials will be held in Bengaluru (Bangalore) for humidity and Jaisalmer in the Rajasthan desert for heat. Trials in the Leh district of Ladakh will be the most challenging. “It will be a pure performance issue at 3,500 meters (11,483 ft.) [above sea level] and 50C (122F) in the summer,” says a vendor.

“Nobody can take off in Leh with a full weapons load, even with powerful engines,” adds a defense analyst.

The request for proposals (RFP) states the aircraft should be able to take off with a full internal fuel load and significant external load from a runway of 3,300 meters, in air-defense and strike configurations.

Vendors are not discussing the weapons their planes will carry during flight trials. Weapon trials will be held in the respective countries, most likely between November and January, and completed in late April when the bids are opened.

Initial weapons to be delivered with the flyaway aircraft include active beyond-visual-range air-to-air missiles, antiship missiles with 100-km. (62-mi.) range, air-to-ground and medium-range missiles (with a range of more than 200 km.), and standoff precision-guided munitions (40-km. range).

The RFP requires that aircraft, components and accessories be of the latest manufacture and conform to the latest production standards.

A game-changer could be the requirement for multimode active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar with a wide band and “adequate growth potential.” Raytheon’s APG-79 AESA radar for the F/A-18 conforms to the requirement, as does Northrop Grumman’s APG-80 for the Block 60 F-16s in the United Arab Emirates’ fleet.

Gripen will fly with its AESA radar during trials. Saab and Selex Galileo will jointly develop an AESA radar for the Gripen NG. The system will be based on Selex Galileo’s Vixen AESA radar and use components from the Gripen’s PS-05/A and other programs from both companies.

Eurofighter insists the range of mechanically scanned (M‑Scan) Selex Captor radar rivals any AESA. “There are benefits in maintenance because it has no moving parts,” says an official.

The Captor electronically scanned array radar is a research and development effort among Germany, Italy, Spain and the U.K. A prototype called Caesar was flown on a Typhoon developmental aircraft in 2007.

The final configuration of the MiG-35’s onboard equipment is not clear. The MiG-35 Fulcrum-F, a stripped-down version of the MiG-29M OVT, might use the Zhuk-AE (see p. 8), Bars-29 or Elta Systems’ EL/M-2052 radars.

Thales, meanwhile, has a contract to develop the second-generation RBE2 AESA radar for the Rafale from the French defense procurement agency. The transition to active electronic scanning technology, which in the case of the RBE2 involves transmit-and-receive technologies only, will provide new capabilities and enhance performance, while improving reliability and reducing maintenance costs, says Dassault. The AESA antenna will increase the RBE2’s range and angular coverage and make the radar more reliable. “The RBE2 on the Rafale F3 will offer high-resolution ground-mapping modes,” says Thales.

Dassault will complete integration of the radar with the Rafale in 2011, in time for delivery should Dassault win all or part of the MMRCA order.

 

[sancho]

I meant the same class as an air superiority fighter...The F18SH outstrips the Rafale as a A2G fighter.The SH also has the superior radar.Definitely the Super Hornet does not have maneuverability but it was never designed as a A2A fighter.It was designed to smash targets on the ground and that it does really well.

I agree with MKI and EF in the same class, but not for Rafale. It also wasn't designed with air superiority in mind, it was designed to be an allrounder (omni role!). Of course the F18Sh is the best in a2 ground, but at the moment no one else in the competition comes closer than the Rafale.

How can you say the maintainence cost of the f18 is the highest because the Brazilian President said so?What else will he say after choosing the more expensive Rafale over the cheaper plane.? On top of everything India needs to start building a relationship with the country who will have the most influence in India's growth.

No because it is clearly the biggest aircraft in the competition, the single engine fighters should be the most cost-effective once, possibly followed by Rafale. With big numbers of MKI, and FGFA and MCA in development, that are pretty much in the same size as F18SH, that could be a small point against F18SH.
Btw, I think the Brazilian are doing the right thing by chosing Rafale, because independence is worth more than that extra money!
With clearly more ToT and source codes they will have more control of their fighters and weapons and India should follow their example.
Isn't it the other way around? Isn't America trying everything to get closer to India, because you need this big market and exports now more than ever before? Also India is the only country in Asia who can keep up with China at the moment and you need a strong India as a counter weight in economic and security reasons.

Anyway, I highly prefer less influence of US and that's why I think it's ok to buy some transport aircrafts and helicopter from you, but MMRCA should go to a European country if they can provide us comparable techs.

 

[Screaming Skull]

@sancho

Just a general post-

I agree with you that the Rafale, ‘technically’ is probably the best aircraft available in the open market for a multitude of reasons. I would personally like to see the Rafales in IAF colors. But, is the MRCA all about picking the best that is available to us? For this, one must understand how the entire selection procedure for the MRCA works. Here read these excerpts from a report that appeared last month in Business Standard-

The defence ministry rulebook that governs purchases reduces the medium fighter competition to three simple steps. Firstly, the air force specifies exactly the performance it wants from its proposed medium fighter. Next, it flies and evaluates all the aircraft on offer to see which ones meet all those requirements. Finally, the ministry orders the cheapest of those that qualify.

Says a senior officer, “We don’t compare the aircraft with each other, we compare them with the tender requirements, filling in a compliance matrix.”

The great Indian duel

I am not privy to the full text of the RFP that was sent out to these companies, but I am guessing that all the aircrafts participating in the contest will satisfy the requirements. If that is the case then cost alone will be the deciding factor! The silver lining is that the IAF and MoD are going to estimate the ‘cost of ownership’ over the entire life cycle of the aircrafts (30-40 yrs) that will include the cost incurred to purchase, maintain, upgrade, savings to indigenous R&D through ToT etc. When such is the case, I am seriously doubtful of Rafale’s chances in the MRCA. The only way out for Rafale is if the cost of ownership turns out to be the lowest for it. Anyway, when such is the case, the obvious favorite that emerges is the Mig-35.

All political and trust issues aside how good is the Mig-35 technically? Is it merely a pimped up Mig-29 as many have alleged? What are the additional capabilities it will offer to the IAF that already operates the Mig-29 (to be upgraded by 2013)?

I came across this very interesting blog by a Russian where he reviews the capabilities of the fighter. Thought I l just share it here

Excerpts-

Briefly the main differences between classic line of MiG-29 on one hand and both MiG-29K/KUB & MiG-29M/M2 on the other:

- The latest has 15-20% composite airframe,
- Slightly bigger wings and ailerons, new wingspan is 11,99 m against 11,36 m.
- Bigger horizontal stabilizers and rudders,
- Wider spine with bigger internal fuel tanks, 1.5 time more fuel.
- Bigger additional fuel tank is allowed (grow from 1520 l to 2150 l)
- Higher load, (4500 --> 5500 kg )
- Antiradar coating,
- Higher trust engines RD-33MK (2x8300 --> 2x9000 kg on afterburner), with longer MTBO/MTBF (2000 --> 4000 hours)
-Reduced infrared emission of the engines,
- Smokeless burner
- FADEC full control system for engines
- Longer life of airframe. Growing up from 2500 fly hours or 20 years rised to 5000 f/h or 30 years.
- Higher number of loading points (9 instead of 6) and heavier weight is allowed for new more heavy missiles.
- Dorsal air intake inlets are removed, fuel tank is installed instead.
- Inlet defense system is installed (grids).
- Totally redesigned canopy
- Service improvement , on-condition maintenance, fuel economy with 2.5 times reducing of flight-hour cost.
- Fly-by-wire
- Refueling capacity
- Open architecture of avionics
- Anti-corrosive defense of a naval aircraft level.

For MiG-35 however further improvements are made.

- MiG-35 has no dorsal air brake (rudders are used instead),
- 11 points of load instead of 9
- 6500 kg max load instead of 5500
- Difference in chassis
- Airframe life 5000 -->6000 hours or 40 years
- AESA radar
- Missiles warning system
- Broader weapon spectrum (+3M-14, 3M-54, KAB-1500)
- Advanced IRST
- Trust vectoring engine
- Better avionics

The most important specs of MiG-35 (two-sitter MiG-35D) are as follow:

Normal take-off mass --- 17,500 (17,800) kg
Maximal --- 23,500 kg
Max. landing mass ---16,800 kg
Internal fuel --- 4,800 kg
Max. load --- 6,500 kg
Max. speed
- low 1,400 km/h
- high 2,100
Mach 2.0
Gmax --- 9.0
Ferry distance
- internal fuel ---2,000 (1,700) km
- 3 external tanks ---3,000 (2,700) km
- 3 e.t. + 1 refueling ---6,000 (5,700) km
Take-off strip --- 550 m
Landing strip --- 600 m
Engines --- 2x RD-33MK
Power 2x 9,000 kg on afterburner

Read the whole article and the discussions that follow- Defunct Humanity: MiG-35, brief review

(I found the blog really great! Must visit if you are interested in Russian tech developments)

Rafale is really the best that is available in the open market and will serve the IAF really well. However, due the inherent process of selection that puts a great premium on cost, I believe the Mig-35 has great chances of winning. Purely on technical grounds the Mig comes across as a very potent and capable fighter and IMO offers the best bang for the buck. Hence, if not Rafale I would like to see the Mig-35 in IAF colors.

 

[ouiouiouiouiouioui]

In hindi ''Khali dimag shaitan ka ghar'' (Plz don't tell me to translate this. It won't have the same flavor )

We already have a MRCA sticky thread...!!!

The thread is of 2005. Frankly its a shame that today we are in 2009 and still undecided about the whole deal. It will take at least year or two to decide.

good for all...may be from 3.5 gen aircraft in 2005 u may get 4.5 gen in 2017

 

[Gabbar]

India - Last Chance for Super Viper​

I'll be delighted to be proved wrong, but I can't see Lockheed Martin's F-16IN as the front runner in India's 126-aircraft fighter competition, even if it has been rechristened the "Super Viper" (farewell, belatedly, to the unloved Fighting Falcon moniker).

Maybe I am being ageist. I became an aviation journalist in August 1978, the same month and year that the F-16 entered service. And that seems a long time ago to me. But I'm still writing and Lockheed is still building F-16s, so maybe age is irrelevant. Certainly the fact that the F-16 is in the final years of a long production run should be irrelevant - whichever fighter India picks for local production will be built there long after the tooling has been mothballed back home.

And Lockheed Martin is certain to have raided its Lego-like box of capabilities to assemble an aircraft for India that is competitive. At Paris, F-16 program manager John Larson said the IN is basically a Block 60 with added features from the Block 50+, such as helmet-mounted cueing, and India-unique features, such as the retractable refueling probe housed in the starboard conformal tank.

The aircraft is illustrated (above) armed with JSOWs mid-wing and SLAM-ERs inboard, but most interesting is the JASSM shown on the right side of the viewgraph. That surprised a few of us at the briefing, so I asked - and it appears the stealthy conventional cruise missile hasn't been released for export to India yet...