Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[holysaturn]

In 2004, first time I heard about this deal. now its 2009 when India is finalising this deal.
Wt ever they will finalise, they will not get it within 5 years.
Noew 2004 ->6 years passed->2009-> 5 more years in development program-> 2 years for trainings= Total time will be 12 years to acquire 126 jets

Dont u think the deal took so much time?

su-30 is a difficult jet to build.it is bigger incorporates lesser advanced manufacturing methods and materials than the jets in mmrca.it should also be noted that infrastructure will be enhanced(as it is one of the main goals of mmrca).private firms will also be involved unlike the manufacture ofsu-30.the jets in mmrca involve lesser number of joint parts than su-30 due to more advanced airframes and will result in lesser manufacturing time.also western manufacturing techniques may also be involved if a western jet is chosen.

 

[Cockpuncher]

In 2004, first time I heard about this deal. now its 2009 when India is finalising this deal.
Wt ever they will finalise, they will not get it within 5 years.
Noew 2004 ->6 years passed->2009-> 5 more years in development program-> 2 years for trainings= Total time will be 12 years to acquire 126 jets

Dont u think the deal took so much time?

Welcome to Indian Democracy

 

[Rajkumar]

Welcome to Indian Democracy

rather,
welcome to Indian bureaucracy
http://www.defence.pk/forums/economy-development/27718-indian-bureaucracy-worst-asia-says-survey.html#post390856

 

[sancho]

Tranche 3 come with AESA and resolve the a2g capabilities and this the best way to know the superior western technology coze today after F-22 it is the best air superiority fighter but when T-3 it is the best 4++ generation fighter and if u comparer with French fighter with EF I don’t think there is much difference in the price coze both are expansive. And also we can get the partner of EF for future it also help us in LCA (EADS helping us to reduce the weight) and MCA.

The problem is that the tranche 3 is splitted now and it's not decided what new a2g capabilities will be added, or funded. Specially Britain is facing many funding problems. Also as I said with Mki and FGFA our need for air superiority is filled I guess. That all causes delays and that is something that we don't need with our own delays at LCA.
I agree the techs of EF are great, that's why I hope we will take that engine (with TVC) for LCA mk2, but we need a fighter that can be produced fast, without any delays. That's why I have some doubts about it, besides the high costs of course.
You might be right that Rafale is not much cheaper, but if we can put Kaveri in it like they offered, it should reduces the cost significantly.

In 2004, first time I heard about this deal. now its 2009 when India is finalising this deal.
Wt ever they will finalise, they will not get it within 5 years.
Noew 2004 ->6 years passed->2009-> 5 more years in development program-> 2 years for trainings= Total time will be 12 years to acquire 126 jets
Dont u think the deal took so much time?

I think you mix it up with the first competition where Mirage, F16 and the first Saab Gripen was tenders. Now it has changed to MMRCA with Mig 35, EF, Rafale and F18, that's why it's took longer. Trials are in aug and the deal should be fixed in 2010. You can expect the first squad around 2013/14 (one squad should be made in winning country, the rest should be licence produced).

 

[heartwinlion]

I agree the techs of EF are great, that's why I hope we will take that engine (with TVC) for LCA mk2, but we need a fighter that can be produced fast, without any delays. That's why I have some doubts about it, besides the high costs of course.
You might be right that Rafale is not much cheaper, but if we can put Kaveri in it like they offered, it should reduces the cost significantly.

Can u tellme GE414 is TVC or without TVC one more think ge 100kn in F/B but if we select ej200 it only 90kn it make any different for our AF??

u r talking about changing engine in Rafale how can u reduce weight currently it has 1100k.g.
And for your information
Engine M88 KAVERI(under construction)
L 139 137.4
D 27.5 35.8
W 897 1100
D/T 50 52
FULL A/B 75 81/ goal to achieve 90
Again it will take time and also kaveri is not successful yet only testing mode not fully opreateable.

 

[Patriot]

Tranche 3 won't be ready before 2011/12 AFAIK.

 

[heartwinlion]

Tranche 3 won't be ready before 2011/12 AFAIK.

IAF Ist mmrca sqn come 2013/2014. So it is not a worry factor.

 

[holysaturn]

Can u tellme GE414 is TVC or without TVC one more think ge 100kn in F/B but if we select ej200 it only 90kn it make any different for our AF??

u r talking about changing engine in Rafale how can u reduce weight currently it has 1100k.g.
And for your information
Engine M88 KAVERI(under construction)
L 139 137.4
D 27.5 35.8
W 897 1100
D/T 50 52
FULL A/B 75 81/ goal to achieve 90
Again it will take time and also kaveri is not successful yet only testing mode not fully opreateable.

ge-414 produces higher thrust and is similar in maintanance to that of 404.it has also proved in hot environments .the ej-200 is not proven and it has to undergo modifications to satisfy 95-100kN mark which reduces its life due to higher wear and tear,but it is more fuel efficient.the ge-414 comes with a new core still being tested.

Changes in the Airframe. Mr Johnson explained that the dimensions of the Eurojet 200 are identical to the existing engine being used by the LCA. Mounting this engine will not require any changes in the existing airframe of the LCA. The same however cannot be said about some other engines, which may necessitate modifications in the airframe, which by itself is a major modification and can significantly derail the project.
Development Potential. One of the interesting aspects of the Eurojet 200 is the inherent design capability to step up performance without tampering with the existing engine. Explaining this Mr Herrmann said that upto 15% improvement in the thrust can be achieved by minor adjustments in the same engine. The user has to specify the purpose for which the increased thrust is needed e.g. during take off, while performing maneuvers or for super cruise. The engine will be adjusted as per the needs of the user. Increased thrust up to 30% can be achieved, but for that we have to replace a few components. Also the user must accept certain reduction in the overall engine life which will be a direct outcome of increased wear and tear.

South Asia Defence & Strategic Reveiw

 

[Screaming Skull]

Hi,

Guys at HAL are very keen on having the EJ-200 for LCA. It is lighter than GE F-414 and most suited for LCA. But, HAL may not have its way if political pressure is exerted on them. IMO go for EJ-200 and EF-Typhoon for MMRCA. That way it will bring down the total cost of both deals put together. Moreover EADS has offered technical consultancy and joint marketing options for LCA if we go for the Typhoon in the MMRCA. Also, like most members believe the cost of EJ is not gonna be as high as 90mil/piece. India will be producing most of the aircrafts in house like the MKI through SKD, CKD and full ToT. Only 20-25 will be bought off the shelf.

 

[sancho]

Can u tellme GE414 is TVC or without TVC one more think ge 100kn in F/B but if we select ej200 it only 90kn it make any different for our AF??

The GE 414 is not offered with TVC, also I don't think the higher thrust of it will be mor preferable for LCA cause IAF aim for Kaveri on LCA was also 90Kn. So the EJ 200 engine fullfil this requirement and adds more capability (some reports were talking about 3D TVC!)

u r talking about changing engine in Rafale how can u reduce weight currently it has 1100k.g.

And for your information
Engine M88 KAVERI(under construction)
L 139 137.4
D 27.5 35.8
W 897 1100
D/T 50 52
FULL A/B 75 81/ goal to achieve 90
Again it will take time and also kaveri is not successful yet only testing mode not fully opreateable.

It was not me talking about it, Dassault officials offered this option and I never read that the Kaveri has to lose weight to be fitted into Rafale. If so they know it and might have some ideas how to make it.
However as you can see the Kaveri already provides more thrust then the normal M88, although it uses the same Eco core. But it is reported that Snecma already developed a 90 Kn M88-3 version, which UAE can have if they will fund it and buy Rafale.
For us that would mean, if we go for Rafale and would get the M88-3 core for Kaveri, we can develope Kaveri faster and could use it in Rafale and LCA.
It is the same advantage that F18SH, or EF offers. Same engine for LCA mk2 and MMRCA, but Rafale is the only one where we can fit our own engine!
I agree it might need some time till Kaveri is ready, but with Snecma help and not to forget that still 4 - 5 years are left till MMRCA will arrive, I think it could work.

 

[sancho]

ge-414 produces higher thrust and is similar in maintanance to that of 404.it has also proved in hot environments .the ej-200 is not proven and it has to undergo modifications to satisfy 95-100kN mark which reduces its life due to higher wear and tear,but it is more fuel efficient.the ge-414 comes with a new core still being tested.

The EJ 200 is proven, German Luftwaffe made 10 000 flighthours with that engine on EF 2000 (but without TVC). As I mentioned in my last post, the aim of IAF for Kaveri engine used in LCA was 90 Kn, only because GE 414 can provide more thrust now, doesn't mean it is necessary for LCA. The main disadvantage of GE414 is that new modifications at LCA airframe is needed to make it fit, EJ 200 fit without!

 

[King Julien]

why is no one talking about mig 35

have you heard about ionized gas.... after all stealth is the mantra of this gen

 

[luckyy]

why is no one talking about mig 35
:

navy going to operate MIG-29K and
MIG-35 is going to get the MMRCA deal ,

everybody knows it , so , what's to talk about..

 

[heartwinlion]

navy going to operate MIG-29K and
MIG-35 is going to get the MMRCA deal ,

everybody knows it , so , what's to talk about..

India want advance western technology but in Mig-35 it come all same and Russia not providing any advance TOT. We are already taken Russian best TOT for our SU-30MKI and for future FGFA. But if we go for western it will helpful for our LCA and later for MCA. SO if u see India IAF future is mix technology both Russia + Indian = Su-30MKI & FGFA. And from Western + Indian = LCA & MCA.

 

[sancho]

navy going to operate MIG-29K and
MIG-35 is going to get the MMRCA deal ,

everybody knows it , so , what's to talk about..

Navy had to go with Mig 29K cause it was a combined deal. In fact they considered F18SH and Rafale for Gorshkov too, but Russia said too many changes were needed.
So if they could, they might went with a western fighter too!