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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

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So we shouldn't buy these rafales ?

It's not late, we can refuse

And these 11billion $ could reduce the poverty in india
These rafales Will not be used against any country, so why buy it?

Dude, you clearly are not the defense type are you? Welcome to PDF BTW. The more you stay the better you will learn as to WHY we need those Rafales.
 
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Dude, you clearly are not the defense type are you? Welcome to PDF BTW. The more you stay the better you will learn as to WHY we need those Rafales.

No i'm not the defense type lol

But after reading this thread, we can see that dassault is the winner ?

Thank you for your welcome, yes i'm here to learn about military
 
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So we shouldn't buy these rafales ?

It's not late, we can refuse

And these 11billion $ could reduce the poverty in india
These rafales Will not be used against any country, so why buy it?


Well said Indian Nationalist. Let's be honest - French Dassualt is known for its penchant to make deals by bribing under the Table. How do you think Zardari go so rich ? when Benazir was in Power, All the deals with France had to pay Mr. 10% his share.
I am sure some Indian politicians got very very rich off of this 11 Billion Dollar deal.
 
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Why do you react so offensively ?

Do you know what is NUCLEAR DETERENCE ?

did nuclear deterence stop Pakistan from attacking heights of Kargil?? Since u claim to be an Indian, u should be knowing that we had a war fought for around 50 days, in which fighter planes had to be used to pummel the bunkers on the hills in and around Kargil..

So when u say, we are never going to war, see if our neighbors think the same way..if not then u know why we need Rafale
 
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The reason EFT was thrown out was because it is made by a consortium of different countries. So even if India get the jet it will be a pain in the a** to get all the countries on the same page to make any changes to the aircraft or to get more from the deal. The other thing is that the French are more reliable partners than the British and the Germans, the British are more likely to go against us if the US put anything in our way. The French so far have supplied quality product and have supported us even when most of the west was against us.
 
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Well said Indian Nationalist. Let's be honest - French Dassualt is known for its penchant to make deals by bribing under the Table. How do you think Zardari go so rich ? when Benazir was in Power, All the deals with France had to pay Mr. 10% his share.
I am sure some Indian politicians got very very rich off of this 11 Billion Dollar deal.


Your taking rubbish the MRCA tender has been said to be corruption free and the most transparent by all parties involved.
 
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The French Connection | Deccan Chronicle


The Indian Air Force has spelt out its choice in the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal to acquire 126 fighters, and the decision now lies with the Indian government, and the French, to finalise the contract. The Rafale, IAF’s choice, has come full circle in the process. Dassault, its maker, had first offered the older Mirage 2000 fighters, withdrew it, bid the Rafale, was almost disqualified in 2009 when high-level diplomacy saved it, went on to top the field trials along with its European cousin, the Eurofighter Typhoon, and is now all set to win what’s arguably the biggest, and most keenly contested, defence deal on offer.

Yet, in some ways, it’s not the end of the acquisition process, but the beginning of an intense last stage. Now, it’s Dassault’s to do the bending. So, what’s the MMRCA? Why is India ready to pay nearly $20 billion to buy these aircraft?

Twenty five years ago, the Indian Air Force had some 40 squadrons, and was the pre-eminent air force in our part of the world, with a combat edge in numbers, technology and training over not only Pakistan, but even over China. Since then, however, the IAF’s combat strength has continuously dwindled, to about 28 squadrons today, due to the phasing out of fighters of the 1960s and 1970s vintage — the MiG 21s and MiG 23s. The IAF wants to buy seven squadrons of multi-role fighters to arrest the decline in combat strength numbers.

When the IAF began to look for a suitable fighter, the technology and costs of military aircraft had changed, and the world was moving towards multi-role platforms – aircraft that could be used in not only air-to-air combat, but air-to-ground attack, deep strike, nuclear missions, anti-ship strikes, etc. What’s more, the Soviet Union had imploded, and Russia had become an uncertain supplier, prompting India to look to reduce dependence on it. And India was already acquiring the Su-30 MKI air superiority fighters at the high end, and confidence in the development of the indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft at the low end had risen. Inevitably, the Air Force began to look for a medium-weight, high performance, multi-role jet, and invited global vendors to bid.

With a deal of this size, along with the quantitative imperative to maintain squadron strength, the IAF had to also achieve a transformation of Indian air power in proportion to the shift in economic, strategic and geopolitical power shift from North Atlantic and Europe to Asia. It’s not only China that is rising, India is on the ascent, too, and it’s a trend that will continue for some decades.

Textbook procedure
The acquisition process has seen an agonising and exacting evaluation of over 650 technical and operational parameters against which the IAF benchmarked not one or two but six aircraft. It’s a tribute to the IAF, a reflection of its professional standards that it has done so in five years – from the request for information to the request for proposals, operational evaluation, and then field trials in the vastly different terrains in which its aircraft must operate – from the hot climes of Nagpur to the jungles of the north-east to the high altitudes of Leh. For the contenders, it was an ordeal by fire virtually, and obviously showed up the limitations of each.

Even the losers of the bid acknowledge that the evaluation has been thoroughly professional, fair and free of the much-suspected geopolitical/strategic considerations. It’s to the credit of the government that it allowed the evaluation to be done completely on the basis of operational and technical parameters.

The Rafale has been declared the lowest cost bidder, or L1. In the old days, that used to mean unit cost of an aircraft. In the more professional cost evaluation of today, it takes into account the life cycle costs of operating the aircraft over 40-50 years. It also includes offsets to the Indian aircraft industry and the transfer of technology in critical areas – the idea being that this should be the last ever import contract for combat aircraft.

The Rafale
The fact that the Rafale has been found to be the most suitable aircraft after this tough evaluation is an indication of how advanced it is. The Rafale is a delta-wing, twin-engine, nuclear capable fighter with exceptional stability due to its advanced fly-by-wire technology; its canards give it high agility in dog fights; and the high-performance Snecma M88 engines give it an operationally advantageous power-weight ratio and a range of 3,600-3,700 km.

With its ability to be armed with beyond visual range missiles, all-aspect air-to-air capability, anti-ship strikes, medium-range missiles, standoff precision-guided munitions and anti-radiation missiles, the Rafale brings a whole range of capabilities to the IAF.

The MMRCA is key to the IAF’s force structure. It can perform in sub-continental territorial defence scenarios as well as in operations that India might undertake under UN aegis or in a coalition of the willing in its strategic neighbourhood – from Central Asia to the northern Indian Ocean, from the Suez to Shanghai, from Aden to South China Sea. This is a large neighbourhood, and the MMRCA will help transform Indian air power from a sub-continental power to that of a continental power.

That transformational role extends to another dimension as well. Conventional wars of the 1971-type are not possible today. Those involved large numbers of casualties and the deliberate destruction of industrial infrastructure, etc. Such wars are not palatable to political leaderships today. The political leadership hesitates to use ground and naval forces. As a result, the salience of air power has increased.

The ability to penetrate, persist, attack precisely and carry out warfare at the strategic and tactical levels with minimal bloodletting and collateral damage makes air power attractive as a military option, especially as military and political objectives have to be achieved speedily against international intervention and the media. Speed, range and penetration have been a problem in expanding Indian power projection until now.

The Western narrative of the “changing nature of war” is built on the experience of the US and European air forces in the past 20 years in one-sided air wars in the Gulf, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Libya, etc., where Western air forces operated in previously sanitised air spaces, dominated them, and did not have to provide cover to ground and naval forces.

That does not work in the India-Pakistan, India-China scenarios, where we will be up against more or less equivalent forces and where any future conflict is unlikely to be limited to only the air dimension. The MMRCA will have a major role in sanitising airspace over our ground and naval forces over a vast geographical space and hit a large number of enemy targets on the ground, in the air and at sea. That’s why the IAF undertook such an agonising and exacting evaluation of the six aircraft. The Rafale will be crucial in the war scenarios India envisages – limited war under a nuclear overhang – because it affords both conventional and nuclear deterrence, and firepower, against adversaries.

The Technology Imperative
India will buy 18 Rafales in flyaway condition and will make 108 at HAL, Bengaluru, under licence and transfer of technology. The total order, in time, may go up to 189, and the deal value $20 billion or more. The size of the deal alters contract dynamics entirely. Not only Dassault but the entire French combat air industrial capability is at stake. It’s an opportunity for India to drive the hardest bargain on price and technology.

Technology from the Rafale, its advanced avionics, powerplant, etc., is vital to fill crucial gaps in Indian technological capability. Skillful negotiations with the French on critical technology transfer should help enhance Indian combat aircraft industry. The MMRCA deal can be a win-win — a new lease of life for the French industry, and take-off for the Indian industry.

The final commercial negotiations for the deal are set to begin, but there are already attempts by competitors to question the wisdom of choosing French. It’s important for the government to close the deal early to put a stop to all speculation, allegations and conspiracy theories.

(Air Vice Marshal (retd) Kapil Kak is additional director of the Centre for Air Power Studies, New Delhi)
(As told to S. Raghotham)
 
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Side arrays in Rafale ?? Is that planned in future - never heard about it till now. I thought that is very specific to T50...

Side arrays were considered for the F22 in the past as well and similar systems are possible for the Rafale in future too:

Plans For Further Rafale Upgrades Emerge

With a new round of Rafale upgrades nearing completion, the French military and defense industry are starting to look at the long-term future of the twin-engine fighter.

Although much of the focus is on a potential mid-life upgrade (MLU) that is still several years away, development activities to prepare the technology would have to start significantly sooner. Potential radar cross-section (RCS) improvements are under consideration, as are equipping the fighter with additional radar arrays for greater spherical coverage and adding thrust vector control to the two M88 turbojets. The MLU configuration is not expected to emerge until around 2025...

Plans For Further Rafale Upgrades Emerge | AVIATION WEEK

I recently summed up the upgrades of the version offered in MMRCA and some that are possible in future:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-506.html#post2547826

@Sancho - Will the Indian Rafale come with the M-88 ECO with uprated thrust of 90kn??

The new Rafale F3+ or F3-04T will come with the M-88-2E4 engine, which is an upgraded M88-2 but not for increased thrust, but longer engine life and reduced operational costs. This Rafale version was offered in MMRCA and should be the one we will get, the 90kN M88-3 on the other side will be the base for a possible Kaveri - Snecma engine co-development.


but the military planners make sure it will be head on...

Says who? Even in the old dogfighting times with guns any pilot tried to get on the 6 of the enemy. This didn't even changed much, when IR missiles were added for WVR fights, because the older missiles couldn't be used, when your target is behind you and the same base tactic still counts today in BVR combats. Stay out of the FOV of you opponent and he can't attack you!

secondly Mig-27 , 21 to get IFF doesnt make sense because they are in last phase of there life.. so if there is a near war they will do visual identification but soon they will not.. and 4th generation fighters are there to stay for next 2-3 decades ..

True, but still these fighters will be used next to MKI or any other 4th gen fighter with IFF. That means in an air combat with several enemy and own fighters, these Migs will appear on MKIs radar just as a target, which can't be distinguished automatically and the only ways to avoid killing one of them is, AWACS support or visual ID before lauchning a weapon and the latter is clearly the safer choice!
 
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1St Point ) Competitors that were included. Top of the line fighters - however clearly some of them belonged to a different class altoghether - Such as teens and gripen. It is obvious that these fighters were included to make sure that transperancy and fair fight amongst all - was the nature of this competition.

That's not correct mate, because M-MRCA is just and extention from the MRCA competition and that included mainly fighters like Gripen C/D, Mirage 2000-5, F16 B52 and Mig 29SMT.
The production line of the Mirage was about to close and although IAF prefered it, MoD/GoI decided to go for M-MRCA and to include heavier fighters like EF and the F18SH, even though IAF didn't wanted such heavy fighters! This move made the vendors that already were in MRCA competition to re-think and why they then offered improved versions or new fighters. That's why Mig 29SMT was replaced by Mig 35, F16 B52 by B70/IN, Gripen C/D by E/F or why the Mirage was replaced by Rafale.


2nd Point ) Elimination - you can clearly make out by elimination process which aircraft IAF was preferring. Why ? They eliminated - F18 and Gripen - Both good fighters with excellent capabilities and wide range of weapon capabilities and with much cheaper costs.

First of all, IAF didn't made the shortlist, but a technical committee of the MoD. IAF only made the trials according to their requirments and forwarded all results to the MoD.
Secondly, Gripen and the F18SH didn't fulfilled key requirements of IAF like a TWR of 1, certain G limits or and the technical issues of Gripens AESA radar, were reported in the Brazilian evaluation as well, so it can't be just a claim and there were reasons why these wasn't shortlisted.
When you turn it around instead and look at the commonalities that EF and Rafale offered that the rejected fighters didn't, you will see that apart from great flight performance, the longest range stand off missiles, they both also offered the most ToT and industrial benefits for our forces. So there are also reason why only these might have been shortlisted!
 
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Deconstructing the MMRCA decision
Deccan Chronicle (Deba Mohanty - Senior Fellow in Security Studies at the Observer Research Foundation, New Delhi)


The multi-billion-dollar MMRCA deal has been debated for several years. The contract is now in the final stage of negotiations, and probably 6-9 months away from signing. Yet, doubts are being raised even now over the deal.

First, why buy 4+ gen. jet when 5th Gen F-35 is available: Some analysts have argued that the MMRCA deal should be scrapped at this late stage and India should opt for the American F-35 Joint Strike Fighter aircraft, which is the latest technology, and could be cheaper.

Such an argument stems from a misunderstanding of the MMRCA deal. The MMRCA is meant to achieve a balanced force structure. It will fill the gap between the indigenous Tejas LCA at the low end and the Su-30 MKI air superiority fighter at the high end, while affording new technology to Indian industry and multi-role capability and force projection to the IAF. The Air Force rejected the 1970s and 1980s vintage F-16 and F/A-18 jets, and down selected the latest operational aircraft, the Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon, before declaring the Rafale as the lowest cost bidder. Also, India made a conscious decision to co-develop a 5th Gen fighter with Russia.

When the MMRCA exercise began, the F-35 was neither on the table, nor anywhere near being operational. As we go to press, the USAF has announced that it is set to upgrade 350 F-16s because the F-35 continues to be delayed. Quite apart from Indian reluctance to buy American and obtain little technology transfer, the JSF is a high-technology project that is still subject to significant risks and whose proposed numbers have been dropped by the US from the original 1,800 to about a third of that number. None of this is to suggest that India should close its options on 5th Gen fighters. In fact, the basket of options has just enlarged, and India can take advantage of that.

Second, why Rafale when cheaper options were available: Three factors determine a major acquisition decision — whether what’s offered meets qualitative requirements, whether it is affordable and, now, what techno-industrial benefits it will bring. The Rafale buy may be difficult to justify purely on qualitative requirements, but factor in offsets and technology transfers, and the fact that India is still to drive a hard bargain on the final cost. By all indications, India would drop the deal if the final price escalates beyond about $18 billion. Given the past experience with Dassault, especially the recent Mirage upgrade deal, it will be interesting to see how hard India can negotiate. This is also a tricky situation for Dassault, because it knows that if it fails to meet the demands, the contract could slip out of its bag.

Third, will France transfer all the technology we want: No less than French President Nicholas Sarkozy has said that France/Dassault would transfer all the technology demanded in the contract, including source codes, a point he publicly reiterated when Dassault was announced as the lowest cost bidder. Still, it is for the Indian government to specify critical technologies that it wants, negotiate hard and ensure compliance. These are in some 10-12 areas, including composites and stealth, single-crystal blade technology, simulation, micro-radars, etc.

Fourth, life cycle costs. Introduction of life cycle costs as part of an acquisition is a new phenomenon. This is a result of India’s displeasure over difficulties faced in earlier acquisitions when it faced severe constraints in supply of spares and even in maintenance of critical infrastructure. Such sourcing resulted in additional costs, new contractual conditions and delays.

Fifth, beyond commercial and technological considerations. Large arms deals invariably go beyond economic and technological considerations and the MMRCA is no exception. Although this tender has so far followed a text-book procedure, not only strategic considerations but others could come into the picture. Consider these: deals for the C-130J Hercules and the P-8I maritime reconnaissance aircraft have sustained about 35,000 jobs in the US alone; the Hawk AJTs, along with the latest follow-on orders, will sustain some 27,000 jobs in the UK; and it would not be wrong to say that over a million hearths were kept going in Russia through more than a dozen large orders from India.

Dassault, for whom the Indian Rafale order will be the first export order, is looking to come off the ventilator with an MMRCA order in 2012, and a possible follow-on some years hence. That gives India leverage to drive not only a hard bargain but also mutual strategic benefits in foreign, defence and economic relations with France.
 
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So we shouldn't buy these rafales ?

It's not late, we can refuse

And these 11billion $ could reduce the poverty in india
These rafales Will not be used against any country, so why buy it?

the reason we r buying Rafale is we r short on our planes. in a span of 4-5 yrs we will be phasing out all the Mig 21, 23 leaving us with Su30,Mirage, jaguar,mig 27,29 totaling to almost 400Plus aircraft. due to this downfall in nos we will lose our quantitative edge on our neighbors.
Now for yr 2nd part we r not attacking anyone but all the wars that we have fought till date was becoz we were attacked and we had to counter them.
Andif we dont fight there wont be anything left to be called as INDIA & u an INDIAN
 
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