Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[peep]

Tsunami cannot attack land based deep targets....

nice swipe there

but

 

[The enlightened]

I think the AESA is the Zhuk AE. The IAF was not impressed with this radar in the MMRCA trials but the russians had promised an improved version (FGA 35) with higher range (upto 200km) and doubling the number of targets tracked(to 60). However the FGA 35 was made for the mig 35 ( 700mm nose cone ) - for it to be used on the Su 30MKI the radar will be scaled up to the size of its nose( 960mm) thereby greatly increasing the number of AESA modules and increasing range as well. We can expect the flanker version of the FGA 35 to have range of 280 -300km for 5m2 targets or around 180-200km for small fighters like F 16s(which is very good). So I dont think we need to worry about a sub par radar on the MKI.

Su 30MKI has a big inherent weakness, it's RCS. So when you think about it's Radar the next time remember that it will need to have a massive, massive advantage through it's detection capabilities[Radars or IRST or anything else] unless someone finds ways to jam future AESA radars.
I mean even Irbis-E a 'hybrid' has a detection range of some 400 km. Anything less than that for MKI is just too sad.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Su 30MKI has a big inherent weakness, it's RCS. So when you think about it's Radar the next time remember that it will need to have a massive, massive advantage through it's detection capability unless someone finds ways to jam future AESA radars.
I mean even Irbis-E a 'hybrid' has a detection range of some 400 km. Anything less than that for MKI is just too sad.

Very true, this is partly why SUPER-30 MKI UPG has been envisaged. A powerful AESA radar is to be incorporated not to mention a completely new advanced weapons package and significant RAM coatings. Just good that Rafele will also be inducted to perfectly compliment the MKI.

 

[kingdurgaking]

Su 30MKI has a big inherent weakness, it's RCS. So when you think about it's Radar the next time remember that it will need to have a massive, massive advantage through it's detection capabilities[Radars or IRST or anything else] unless someone finds ways to jam future AESA radars.
I mean even Irbis-E a 'hybrid' has a detection range of some 400 km. Anything less than that for MKI is just too sad.

Not Sure why every one is talking about RCS of 4+ generation fighter... our neighbour hood doesnt have a stealthy plains inducted.. and it will take atleast 5 yrs to induct and so there will be a gap of only 2 yrs to induct 5th generation fighters.. and PLAAF will not be stupid enough to wage a war that soon as it will take nearly half a decade to master there machine and use it at will... so both PLAAF and IAF will have proper 5th gen fighters at the same time.. so coming back to MKI it is designed in such a way that the present fighters in the neighborhood arsenal will be deterred by it.. it will make sure that no other planes come close to it just like F-15 does for USAF...

as such RCS is not a factor for 4th gen fighters.. the current radars are enough to locate enemy craft at a tremendous distance

 

[sancho]

hey guys I`m sorry if I may sound dumb.But what makes Rafale better than Eurofighter? Don`t get me wrong I 1st voted for Eurofighter then rafale.But i dont get the details why is it better.I only know it has better A2G

- true multi role capablitly, the biggest difference to EF
- more cost-effective compared to EF, be it unit cost or operational costs
- combat proven and at a higher development stage than EF
- the way better hardpoint layout (5 wet stations, dedicated pod stations)
- more advanced techs, especially the avionics
- passive detection and targeting capability
- unique advantages of AASM and MICA


For India in particular you could also add:

- experience and commonality with Mirage 2000s
- capabilitywise exactly what IAF was searching between MKI and LCA
- a logical option for IN
- the already available relations of French and Indian companies
- independence and reliability that France and Dassault offers

For India the whole package that Rafale offered was the best!

@sancho...

will we be getting the scalp and the taurus standoff missiles from mbda for rafale ?

Scalp is on offer for sure, possibly even for the upgraded Mirage 2000s, Taurus wa available mainly for EF and Gripen.

Source please.
How does Mig 35 tech amount to RCS reduction on the flanker.

There is no tech that will reduce the RCS, but replacing reflecting parts with composites and mainly adding RAM materials will be the biggest improvements. The Mig is said to have reduced it's RCS up to 4 times, compared to older Migs this way and that's the same way why the Su 35 has a lower RCS compared to older Su 27/30s.
If MKI gets a simliar RCS reduction, combined with a very long range AESA radar and the advantage of not carrying external fuel tanks, it will remain to have a edge over most possible competitiors in BVR.

 

[sancho]

The best they can accomplish is something close to the F-15SE..
But the Flanker is a large behemoth with flat surfaces at angles all over the place. A difficult and probably expensive prospect for RCS reduction.

One of the main advantages that the F15SE has, is that it carries fuel and weapons in the CFTs and not as external. That reduces it's RCS the mosts, besides some new features at the airframe itself. The Flankers already have the advantage of no external fuel tanks, because they have very big internal fuel tanks, now the question is, can the weapons be hided too?
CFTs are not possible imo, since the gears would be blocked, which leaves only a modification to the centerline station or weapon pods like the Silent Hornet has, but I doubt that any of these changes will come now.

 

[Archie]

The best they can accomplish is something close to the F-15SE..
But the Flanker is a large behemoth with flat surfaces at angles all over the place. A difficult and probably expensive prospect for RCS reduction.

You bet
The cost of upgrading first 50 Su30MKI to Super 30 Standard will cost Rs 10800 Crore or roughly 42 Million USD each
The upgrade includes the following

Upgrade of Bars PESA Radar to AESA Radar
Higher Thrust Engines
Mayawi EW Suite developeb along with Israel
Structural Modifications to incorporate Brahmos Cruise Missiles
Update to avionics and Mission Computers , bringing it to the level of Last Tranche of 42 Su30MKI which was ordered in 2011 and will be delivered in 2014
And Finally the RCS Reduction ( Though the level of RCS Reduction is not known but Looking at the fact that Mig29SMT upgrade has resulted in RCS Reduction to the tune of 60% , we can expect a similar reduction , Though I still feel that it will be difficult to Reduce the RCS of MKI to below 3-4 Sqm )

Though Thankfully the upgrade of remaining 180 Su30NKI will not be as costly coz ( they will cost 25-30 million USD each)

They will not incorporate a Higher Thrust engine , and will not Have structural modifications to carry Brahmos becoz only the first 50 and last 42 Su30MKI are planned to carry Brahmos

 

[500]

as such RCS is not a factor for 4th gen fighters.. the current radars are enough to locate enemy craft at a tremendous distance

Not really.

F-16A, for example can detect 5m2 fighter at 72 km. That means Rafale with reduced RCS (lets say 3m2) will be detected at 63 km, while Su-30 with RCS of 15 m2 will be detected at 95 km. i.e. 1.5 times - thats very serious. JF-17's radar I believe has similar ranges.

When it comes to detection near the ground ranges will decrease 1.5 times at least: some 40 km for Rafale and 60 km for Su-30.

F-16 block 50 will detect Rafale at 85 km and Su-30 at 128 km in clear sky and 55 km and 85 km respectively near the ground.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Are you ready for this:

 

[praveen007]

Are you ready for this:

.
Yes, I am.
But................
are you ready for World's Biggest French Kiss.
.

 

[lepziboy]

Old but still interesting

A Stealthier Rafale?
Posted by Bill Sweetman at 4/5/2010 5:30 AM CDT
Our colleagues at Air & Cosmos report that the French government is funding a demonstration of improved stealth technology for the Dassault Rafale fighter, with a focus on active cancellation techniques. The story itself is not online but is being discussed at the Key Military Forum.



Dassault

Active cancellation means preventing a radar from detecting a target by firing back a deception signal with the same frequency as the reflection, but precisely one-half wavelength out of phase with it. Result: the returned energy reaching the radar has no frequency and can't be detected.

It's quite as difficult as it sounds. Some reports have suggested that the so called SP-3 or ZSR-62 "radar jamming device" planned in the early days of the B-2 program was an active cancellation system. It did not work and was scrapped in 1987-88. In 2005, Northrop Grumman paid $62 million to settle a False Claims Act case involving the system.

This may not be the first French attempt to implement AC on the Rafale. At the Paris air show in 1997, I interviewed a senior engineer at what was then Dassault Electronique, about the Rafale's Spectra jamming system. He remarked that Spectra used "stealthy jamming modes that not only have a saturating effect, but make the aircraft invisible... There are some very specific techniques to obtain the signature of a real LO aircraft."

"You mean active cancellation?" I asked. The engineer suddenly looked like someone who deeply regretted what he had just said, and declined any further comment. (As Hobbes once put it after pouncing on an unsuspecting Calvin: "We tigers live for moments like that."*)

The fact that a new demonstrator is being contemplated suggests that the technology may not have been up to the job the first time round - but since AC depends on electronics and processing, that picture may have changed. MBDA and Thales, which absorbed Dassault Electronique and is now the prime contractor on Spectra, have since confirmed that they are working on active cancellation for missiles.

The whole Spectra program has been a major venture, including the construction of four new indoor test ranges, including the colossal Solange RCS range discussed in Ares in 2007. That facility will probably play a major role in the new demonstrator program.

 

[lepziboy]

Tsunami cannot attack land based deep targets....

its a flying tsunami

 

[Jason bourne]

Tsunami cannot attack land based deep targets....

havent u seen the movie 2012

 

[KS]

So atlast it has been the Raffy...


Dream come true for an ardent Rafale supporter.

 

[Birbal]

At high altitudes you have very high radar detection and missile ranges, so you can easily fire 2-3 missiles before entering WVR so chances to enter dog fight are virtually zero.

And even after u enter WVR fight at high altitude ur missile range will be more than enough at any angles. Especially if u have high energy missile like MICA.

I'm not talking about WVR maneuvering. I'm talking about maneuver efficiency at high altitudes. TVC helps reduce drag during high altitude maneuvers, which increases both aircraft range and the ability to evade BVR missiles.