Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sancho]

Well IAF is also happy with Mirage but that doesnot mean India or UAE will pay whatever French ask them to pay. The french offer to both India and UAE are way too expensive as compared to the aircraft's worth and this is the reason why Rafale is losing everywhere. EF Consortium have bend alot for MMRCA while French are not ready to bend and this may cost them at both places. In both places French will have to make their offer alot sweeter to beat EF.

But IAF Mirage are 25 years old, most of UAE Mirages are brand new and the most capable of this fighter type. IAF has to replace fighters with MMRCA, UAE has not, that's why they want France to buy the Mirage fighters back or find a buyer for them, so there is a huge difference in both deals.
Also, the EF consortium has no other option to bend that much, because they are way more desperate than the French! Nobody wants their fighter when they have a chance to really compare it with other fighters, because its costlier than the Rafale (even for India!) and way less capable. Brazil rejected it directly, Singapor, S. Korea the Dutch and the Swiss rated it way behind Rafale and now that we know for sure that not even the partner countries will continue to buy it, there is even less hope for it's future potential (production secured till 2017 now, because of slowed production rate).
India is the best/only chance for the EF partners and the consortium have and that's why they are ready to get rid of their fighters even with a loss, so it's not surprising that they bent as much as they can, but that doesn't automatically mean that they are better then what the French offers, because they still offer the cheaper and more capable fighter and we still don't have any real clue what they offered to India on the industrial side. In no other competition the French were so quiet about the industrial part, while we got a lot of infos about that from their PR in Brazil or Swiss.

 

[tony singh]

EF was rated by the Saudis more than the Rafale and now Malaysia is even having a good look at the bird. Rafale's problem is the engines which have less thrust and also it is not as stealthy compared to the EF. My choice would be to scrap the tender and cancel orders for the rest of the Sukhoi 30MKI and go for the Sukhoi 35E.

 

[Black Widow]

EF was rated by the Saudis more than the Rafale and now Malaysia is even having a good look at the bird. Rafale's problem is the engines which have less thrust and also it is not as stealthy compared to the EF. My choice would be to scrap the tender and cancel orders for the rest of the Sukhoi 30MKI and go for the Sukhoi 35E.

Why don't you keep your suggestion with yourself???? If India cancel this order then what will replace MiG27/Jaguar and M2000H???? Only a fool in world will replace ground attack MRCA with Air-Superiority MRCA....


Try to understand the Structure of airforces in world. They need
A) Weight wise
1. Light Fighters :MiG21,LCA
2. Medium weight fighters :MiG29,MiG23/27, Jaguar,M2000H,(Harrier and MiG29K if navy counted in)
3. Heavy weight Fighters. :Su30MKI

B) Role wise
1. Point defense fighter :MiG21,LCA
2. Area defense fighter :MiG29,Su30MKI
3. Air superiority fighter. : Su30MKI (not all can be used for this role, coz its most expensive), MiG29
4. Multirole fighter with good Air superiority : Su30MKI (EFT if taken, Later PAK-FA will join)
5. Multirole fighter with good ground attack capability : M2000H (Later MMRCA will join , if Rafael)
6. Dedicated Ground attack fighter : Jaguar, MiG27 (It will totally replace by MRCAs, later there wont be any fighter for this role)
7. CAS (Close Air support fighter) : MiG21, LCA, Su30MKI, MMRCA winner

Hope you will not give any lame suggestion in Sticky thread... You are welcome for any further query...

 

[dearone4u_22]

We could ask USA for few B-2 Bomber along with growlers ...try karne mein kya jata hai

For B-2
Total procurement costs averaged $929 million per aircraft, which includes spare parts, equipment, retrofitting, and software support

 

[Black Widow]

We could ask USA for few B-2 Bomber along with growlers ...try karne mein kya jata hai

For B-2
Total procurement costs averaged $929 million per aircraft, which includes spare parts, equipment, retrofitting, and software support

Let me tell you one story:

Two friends were walking thru a jungle. Suddenly they saw a lion. one of them started tieing his shoelace so that he can run. his friend told him that he can not outrun Lion. He replied "Who the hell want to outrun lion? I want to outrun you..."

Moral of the story: Do we really need B2 to outrun our friend?

 

[ptltejas]

The New Pod From SAAB Group of Gripen News

Saab Group has launched a new countermeasures self protection pod, BOH, which can be incorporated into any fixed wing aircraft for defeating all modern infra-red-guided threats.

The modular multiconfigurable BOH employs Saab's BOL countermeasures dispenser system (CMDS) and compact integrated defensive aids suite (CIDAS) into the shape of a missile.

The BOH pod features a missile approach warning system (MAW), pyrotechnical dispenser, controller and electromechanical dispenser modules.

The BOL CMDS enables countermeasure dispensing characterisation with its long duration pre-emptive dispensing capability, while Saab's BOP dispenser is designed to provide forward firing flare capability to the BOH.

CIDAS is the small and light weight electronic warfare (EW) system variant featuring electro-optical sensors and a smaller controller, to provide self-defence in diverse and dense threat scenarios.

The BOL and CIDAS capabilities are incorporated in the form of a missile using AIM-9 Sidewinder and AIM-120 AMRAAM interfaces and are supported by the missile approach warning and laser sensors mounted in the front end for automatic trigger dispensing action.

The interfaces allow the BOH installation in place of a missile on a mission-to-mission basis to assist the operator in selecting missiles or additional EW equipment for carrying in the BOH form-factor.

The BOH integration with MIL-STD-1553 or RS-485 data links allows the adaptation to other displays and control means while the wireless technology implementation makes integration much simpler.

Saab's business area Electronic Defence Systems product manager Christer Zatterqvist said that simple integration allows rotation of a limited number of BOH between the aircraft or its types.

The prototype of BOH will be displayed at the Langkawi International Maritime and Aerospace Exhibition (LIMA) 2011in Malaysia.

Image caption: BOL advanced counter measure dispenser enables countermeasure dispensing characterisation with its long duration pre-emptive dispensing capability.

Saab launches new countermeasures self protection pod - Airforce Technology

 

[SpArK]

The New Pod From SAAB Group of Gripen News

Saab Group has launched a new countermeasures self protection pod, BOH, which can be incorporated into any fixed wing aircraft for defeating all modern infra-red-guided threats.

The modular multiconfigurable BOH employs Saab's BOL countermeasures dispenser system (CMDS) and compact integrated defensive aids suite (CIDAS) into the shape of a missile.

The BOH pod features a missile approach warning system (MAW), pyrotechnical dispenser, controller and electromechanical dispenser modules.

The BOL CMDS enables countermeasure dispensing characterisation with its long duration pre-emptive dispensing capability, while Saab's BOP dispenser is designed to provide forward firing flare capability to the BOH.

CIDAS is the small and light weight electronic warfare (EW) system variant featuring electro-optical sensors and a smaller controller, to provide self-defence in diverse and dense threat scenarios.

The BOL and CIDAS capabilities are incorporated in the form of a missile using AIM-9 Sidewinder and AIM-120 AMRAAM interfaces and are supported by the missile approach warning and laser sensors mounted in the front end for automatic trigger dispensing action.

The interfaces allow the BOH installation in place of a missile on a mission-to-mission basis to assist the operator in selecting missiles or additional EW equipment for carrying in the BOH form-factor.

The BOH integration with MIL-STD-1553 or RS-485 data links allows the adaptation to other displays and control means while the wireless technology implementation makes integration much simpler.

Saab's business area Electronic Defence Systems product manager Christer Zatterqvist said that simple integration allows rotation of a limited number of BOH between the aircraft or its types.

The prototype of BOH will be displayed at the Langkawi International Maritime and Aerospace Exhibition (LIMA) 2011in Malaysia.

Image caption: BOL advanced counter measure dispenser enables countermeasure dispensing characterisation with its long duration pre-emptive dispensing capability.

Saab launches new countermeasures self protection pod - Airforce Technology

It can be used in EF.

 

[tony singh]

Why don't you keep your suggestion with yourself???? If India cancel this order then what will replace MiG27/Jaguar and M2000H???? Only a fool in world will replace ground attack MRCA with Air-Superiority MRCA....


Try to understand the Structure of airforces in world. They need
A) Weight wise
1. Light Fighters :MiG21,LCA
2. Medium weight fighters :MiG29,MiG23/27, Jaguar,M2000H,(Harrier and MiG29K if navy counted in)
3. Heavy weight Fighters. :Su30MKI

B) Role wise
1. Point defense fighter :MiG21,LCA
2. Area defense fighter :MiG29,Su30MKI
3. Air superiority fighter. : Su30MKI (not all can be used for this role, coz its most expensive), MiG29
4. Multirole fighter with good Air superiority : Su30MKI (EFT if taken, Later PAK-FA will join)
5. Multirole fighter with good ground attack capability : M2000H (Later MMRCA will join , if Rafael)
6. Dedicated Ground attack fighter : Jaguar, MiG27 (It will totally replace by MRCAs, later there wont be any fighter for this role)
7. CAS (Close Air support fighter) : MiG21, LCA, Su30MKI, MMRCA winner

Hope you will not give any lame suggestion in Sticky thread... You are welcome for any further query...

I have a right to express my opinion if u dont like it go do one

---------- Post added at 07:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:22 PM ----------

The SU35BM has a reduced RCS and is multi role it can do the A2A and the ground operations.

---------- Post added at 07:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:24 PM ----------

If this MRCA tender is going up by cost to $20bn in my view it's not worth it. Rafale is a waste of money nobody wants this fighter and the EF is too expensive so why not order the SU35 and MKI it?

 

[deepakclaw]

SU 30MKI is not an air superiority fighter alone. It is an true multirole paltform ,it exels in different missions including A2A & A2G. ............in IAF it is positioned as airsuperiority fighter thats all.

Why don't you keep your suggestion with yourself???? If India cancel this order then what will replace MiG27/Jaguar and M2000H???? Only a fool in world will replace ground attack MRCA with Air-Superiority MRCA....


Try to understand the Structure of airforces in world. They need
A) Weight wise
1. Light Fighters :MiG21,LCA
2. Medium weight fighters :MiG29,MiG23/27, Jaguar,M2000H,(Harrier and MiG29K if navy counted in)
3. Heavy weight Fighters. :Su30MKI

B) Role wise
1. Point defense fighter :MiG21,LCA
2. Area defense fighter :MiG29,Su30MKI
3. Air superiority fighter. : Su30MKI (not all can be used for this role, coz its most expensive), MiG29
4. Multirole fighter with good Air superiority : Su30MKI (EFT if taken, Later PAK-FA will join)
5. Multirole fighter with good ground attack capability : M2000H (Later MMRCA will join , if Rafael)
6. Dedicated Ground attack fighter : Jaguar, MiG27 (It will totally replace by MRCAs, later there wont be any fighter for this role)
7. CAS (Close Air support fighter) : MiG21, LCA, Su30MKI, MMRCA winner

Hope you will not give any lame suggestion in Sticky thread... You are welcome for any further query...

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

If this MRCA tender is going up by cost to $20bn in my view it's not worth it. Rafale is a waste of money nobody wants this fighter and the EF is too expensive so why not order the SU35 and MKI it?

Remember that IAF did not want all it's eggs in one basket!
Add to that,the GoI wanted to get as much political mileage as possible!

 

[ptltejas]

It can be used in EF.

Not a Griphen lover or hate it...

 

[sancho]

EF was rated by the Saudis more than the Rafale and now Malaysia is even having a good look at the bird. Rafale's problem is the engines which have less thrust and also it is not as stealthy compared to the EF. My choice would be to scrap the tender and cancel orders for the rest of the Sukhoi 30MKI and go for the Sukhoi 35E.

1) The Saudi deal was no real competition like MMRCA or the once I mentioned
2) A bribery case was charged against BAE regarding this deal, just like in Austria and the EF selection there
3) Su35 / MKI / Pak FA / FGFA = Heavy class fighters, but the competition is for MEDIUM class MRCA
4) Former IAF Chief Naik said, that putting all eggs in one basket is not a good idea and that it's not the unit cost that is important, but the lifecycle costs
5) IAF learned from Kargil war how important it is to have fighters with alternative capabilities and weapons

It should be clear now why no Russian fighter was chosen and why more heavy class fighters are out of question. Besides that, MMRCA has the aim to get big industrial advantages too and for this requirement, the Rafale/EF are the best options.

 

[tony singh]

1) The Saudi deal was no real competition like MMRCA or the once I mentioned
2) A bribery case was charged against BAE regarding this deal, just like in Austria and the EF selection there
3) Su35 / MKI / Pak FA / FGFA = Heavy class fighters, but the competition is for MEDIUM class MRCA
4) Former IAF Chief Naik said, that putting all eggs in one basket is not a good idea and that it's not the unit cost that is important, but the lifecycle costs
5) IAF learned from Kargil war how important it is to have fighters with alternative capabilities and weapons

It should be clear now why no Russian fighter was chosen and why more heavy class fighters are out of question. Besides that, MMRCA has the aim to get big industrial advantages too and for this requirement, the Rafale/EF are the best options.

I understand the need to get new weapons and technology from western sources, but i still can't get my head around $20bn in the cost.


When it comes to lifecycle cost gripen is alot cheaper in that regard. Rafale is good because it's lighter but pity nobody seems to want it ill be intrested to see if it wins the 1st order in India.

 

[Black Widow]

SU 30MKI is not an air superiority fighter alone. It is an true multirole paltform ,it exels in different missions including A2A & A2G. ............in IAF it is positioned as airsuperiority fighter thats all.

With All due respect I am saying the same thing. Looks like you were in hurry to reply so you didn't read my post. if you see my post you can see I have kept Su30MKI in 3 category (Based on How India is using it)
a) Area defense
b) Air Superiority
c) Multi role with good Air superiority.

India can not use all MKI into Airsuperiority role. Our wallet not permits, Infact no country can do so(unless they are crazy). Coming to your second point "Su30MKI is true Multirole platform". I agree with you and I have written the same in my post. Su27 series is a Multirole fighter with better Air superiority.

While Rafael is also Multirole but better ground attack capability. The Invention of Look down radar bring up the concept of Multirole.

I have a right to express my opinion if u dont like it go do one

Yes You do have, Sorry if I hurt you

The SU35BM has a reduced RCS and is multi role it can do the A2A and the ground operations.

But again Su35 BM is not Medium weight AC. We need medium weight fighter. and Su30MKI up gradation program will bring it to Su35BM standard.

If this MRCA tender is going up by cost to $20bn in my view it's not worth it. Rafale is a waste of money nobody wants this fighter and the EF is too expensive so why not order the SU35 and MKI it?

I don't see any other country providing any cheaper solution. Remember 10 or 20 Bill USD includes Infrastructure, Training and ToT. (May be weapon system as well-Sanco can tell it better)

Su35 is estimated 65 Mill USD a piece (may be without infrastructure and Tot) MiG35 cost around 50 Mill USD (May be without ToT and Infrastructure.)

 

[sancho]

When it comes to lifecycle cost gripen is alot cheaper in that regard. Rafale is good because it's lighter but pity nobody seems to want it ill be intrested to see if it wins the 1st order in India.

True, the Gripen was cheaper, but way less capable and more risky, but the point was that IAF prefered lower lifecylce costs compared to their heavy class fighters and even the Mig 35 was worse in this field compared to Rafale and EF.
Rafale is the best medium class fighter available today, but that doesn't mean any potential customer has to buy it. These kind of deals have more than technical requirements, costs is an issue where it falls back of course, when US fighters are involved it also lacks behind at political advantages and even compared to the EF consortium. So there are more reasons behind it why it wasn't sold yet.
For India that doesn't mean much anyway, because once we see that Rafale is one of the few 4th gen fighters that constantly got upgraded and improved to a very good level (contrary to the EF), that it will be in production beyond 2020 and that France will focus on it as a single type fighter for their air force and navy, which again secures upgrades for the future. Not to mention that for us, the licence production is more important, because the more we can build in India and the more we might be able to customise (similar to MKI), the less dependable are we for French upgrades too. I would love to see an Indian Rafale with Shudharshan LGB, HELINA missile and maybe Israeli SPICE Stand off weapons, not to forget that Israeli avionics could be on the list as well.