Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sudhir007]

Eurofighter consortium desperate to have India has a new Partner | idrw.org

Purchase of 126 fighter jet under MMRCA deal by Indian air force is very closely monitored by Eurofighter consortium, which desperately wants the deal to go through, Eurofighter consortium has already chucked out plans to make India Production base for Eurofighter aircrafts and also use local Public and Private sector industries to source spares supplies for its Consortium member air force and its export customers.

Consortium members are currently struggling to maintain proper supply of spares to the fleet of Eurofighter currently operated by their air force, Budget cuts in Royal air force has already forced them to delay upgrades to their earlier batches of the Eurofighter fleet which have limited Strike Capability. Consortium is struggling to upgrade older variants and higher operating cost and spares has been much criticised in their national media.

Experts have added in British media that “India’s participation will help fund future upgrades to the aircraft and source spares at lower cost”, Eurofighter consortium is ready to transfer high value defence R&D to India and wants to co-develop and co-produce future upgrades and enhancements, new sub-systems, software, etc.

HAL is already started recruiting engineers and support staff to enable them to start producing aircrafts after the winners are announced and key tools and technology are passed on to them for local production , Hal is already building the production house which will manufacture this aircrafts under its complex in Bangalore. Under MMRCA Tender more than 20,000 high skilled jobs will be created.

 

[desimorty]

QSR
requirment AESA and Supercruise.
Mig-35, fail.

 

[luckyyy]

QSR
requirment AESA and Supercruise.
Mig-35, fail.

but , The MAPO-MiG enterprise claims the new fighter(MIG-35) would be able to outperform the F-22 Raptor..

 

[elite]

but , The MAPO-MiG enterprise claims the new fighter(MIG-35) would be able to outperform the F-22 Raptor..

yeah.....may someday after 20-30 years......

 

[hembo]

25 APR, 2011, 04.06PM IST,IANS
Antony warns defence top brass against graft in deals

NEW DELHI: With major deals including the $10.4-billion tender for 126 combat planes tender in its final stages, Defence Minister A.K. Antony Monday warned the armed forces' top brass not to "fall prey to corrupt practices by vested interests".

Inaugurating separate commanders' conferences of the air force and the army here, Antony also asked them to strive for probity and fair play in their day-to-day dealings.

"Time and cost overruns apart, there is always the danger of falling prey to corrupt practices perpetrated by vested interests in the garb of aggressive marketing. I strongly urge you all to stand guard with resolve against any such overtures. You must strive to uphold sincerity, probity and fair play, even in your day-to-day administrative work," Antony told the army commanders here.

"At times, vested interests bring about unnecessary pressure and resort to corrupt practices that can wreak serious havoc upon our security in more ways than one. We must resist such efforts collectively and resolutely in national interests," Antony said at the air force commanders meet.

"Even though I have full faith in your capacity and ability to uphold our security interests, I strongly urge you to remain vigilant, cautious and alert to any wrongdoing at all times," he added.

His comments come even as the defence ministry is on the verge of finalising the deal for 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) in which American firms Boeing's F/A-18 and Lockheed Martin's F-16s, Russian United Aircraft Corporation's MiG-35, French Dassault's Rafale, Swedish SAAB's Gripen and European consortium EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon are in contention.

The government is also to soon decide the winner of a $650-million tender for 22 attack helicopters and a $700-million bid for 15 heavy-lift cargo helicopters.

The MMRCA tender process was threatened early this year after the file containing the offsets proposals of competing firms had gone missing when a bureaucrat was taking it home in the capital and was recovered later by the roadside in south Delhi.

A probe ordered into the episode had rapped the bureaucrat, but concluded that the incident had not compromised the tendering process, thus facilitating its continuance.

At the two conferences, Antony also gave a bird's eye view of the global security scenario, pointing out that the political disturbances in West Asia and North Africa had thrown up fresh challenges.

"Any adverse developments will without doubt have a far reaching effect on the energy security and overall security of the nations across the world," he said.

The defence minister said the government remained fully committed to the modernisation of the armed forces and upgrading of infrastructure.

"For far too long, we have remained over-dependent on foreign equipment. No nation will ever part with its first generation equipment," he said, adding that modernisation and indigenisation must proceed apace.

"If our efforts to achieve self-reliance are to assume greater relevance, our soldiers, scientists and the defence industry must regularly consult each other -- at every stage of designing, manufacturing and production of equipment to minimize procedural delays and understand each other's requirements," he added.

 

[Shastra]

Mig-35 has the least presence in the competition

 

[sancho]

so you mean to say it is given only as option not as configuration.. do you have any source to back... because lot of source says it is a configuration.. how can a customer deny a configuration.. though he can drop the option..

Then why don't you post them? In fact even Boeing says that only a demo version was tested so far, to clear the base techs of this upgrade (Boeing Briefing from Aero India, Page 14):[/QUOTE]

• Two demonstrator engine tests in 2004 & 2006
… third test in 2010
• Validation of F414 EPE technologies is complete

http://www.boeing.com/AeroIndia2011/pdf/Aero_India_Super_Hornet_Briefing.pdf

The international growth road map is a menu of options available individually to increase the capability and survivability of the Super Hornet.

And here is the official press release of Boeing, to their reply on the MMRCA RFP in 2008:

Boeing: Boeing Delivers Proposal to Equip Indian Air Force with Super Hornet Fighters

Do you see anything about the EPE, or at least an offer of a higher thrust engine?
As long as no test version is available for flight trials, which requires fundings for R&D as well the integration into the fighter, it is nothing more than an option like all these "Silent Hornet" options, or the M88-3, or the EJ 230 engine.

there is no logic in me denying ...

The fact that the SH is the only fighter that has no new, or higher thrust engine available in the trials, or that the SH is the only fighter that really needs more thrust.
You can also turn it around if you want, if all the other fighters fielded new engines, or have better TWRs anyway, why should the offer a higher thrust engine in the last minute?
Any logical answer to this?

 

[Dazzler]

Silent Hornet seems most likely candidate to me, but Indians must look how things go when you engage US for defense equipment. We have learned this a hard way. Just an opinion.

 

[sancho]

That is right we heard from the UAE that the Rafale was under powered, General Alain Silvy confirmed this in an interview. A new more reliable engine M88 4E is expected in 2012, we know the M88 suffers from reliability issues, as a matter of fact the M88 experienced technical issues at AeroIndia 2011 it is more than possible the French engine has not impressed the IAF and the French are now offering a new variant of the M88.

And that's the problem (for you at least), the new engine they offer is the M88 - 4E, which is the new standard engine of the Rafale F3+ and is an upgrade for more cost-effectivity, but with the same engine thrust! That means you completely contradicts yourself here, because the engine is neither meant for more reliability, nor does it offer more thrust!
Your claims about reliability issues are baseless anyway, because just like the Mirage 2000, the Rafale is known for high reliability during missions, which is evident when you check the availability rates in operational service, be it in real wars, or excercises:

Today, the base has around 25 fully equipped Rafale B/Cs in service with the Provence squadron and a second squadron being raised this year. In two years, the Rafales have performed three overseas deployments — including one to Spain for the annual NATO Tiger Meet and another to Belgium for the NATO Tactical Leadership Programme. The most talked about excursion has been the deployment of three AdlA aircraft to Dushanbe, Tajikistan to support multinational combat operations as part of Operation Enduring Freedom. The aircraft arrived on March 12, 2007 and amassed more than 750 flight hours.

The Tajkiistan deployments gave the AdlA practical experience at maintaining and supporting the aircraft far from home. However, the aircraft enjoyed an availability rate of around 90 percent. This has increased following the Rafale’s redeployment to Kandahar Airfield in early Feb. 2008 where, according to Adla Rafale Programme Officer Col. François Moussez, "we have an availability of between 90 to 93 percent."

Afghanistan:

We usually launched two waves per day, one in the morning and one in the afternoon, with mission duration varying from 4h 30min to 6h 30min,” explains Colonel François Moussez, the French Air Force Rafale Program officer. Despite the austere conditions, “overall availability has been excellent - better than 90% - since the beginning of the deployment, and we have not cancelled any single mission due to mechanical problems,” he says. “On average, about 50 sorties were flown each month, with each aircraft logging about 80 flying hours per month.

Excercise with Greek AF:

As far as the availability of the Rafale goes, in the duration of 18 sorties, it was proved high (94%), while only one flight was delayed and in one more there was a minor technical problem during flight.

ATLC Exercise in the UAE:

he availability rate of the Rafale, which have accumulated 220 flight-hours in 148 missions, while shotting down - virtually meant - not less than 61 hostile fighters, was 97% for the entire period. And no missions has been canceled

NATO Tigermeet exercise:

At the Tiger Meet, our two aircraft achieved 100-percent availability for the entire week. On the ramp, we demonstrated how the aircraft can be turned around by just one ground crew. The other teams were very impressed by that

And the list goes on and on!

Reliability and quality of techs and spares, is even one of the main points why IAF admire the French fighters, proven by the exellent experience with the Mirage.

 

[sancho]

that's the main point !!

The MiG-35’s advantages include India’s experience of MiG-29s and the fact that maintenance infrastructure for them is in place across the country,
also lets not over look the automation proccess of menufecturing US planes , which going to cost a hell to HAL to bought all those automatic machines from US..

That's why the best choice is one in between, using the advantage of already available logistics, as well experience in operating and producing of parts and techs, but also using the competition to add more capabilities and quality.

The Mig offers the earlier, the western fighters the latter and Rafale offers both!

 

[kingdurgaking]

Then why don't you post them? In fact even Boeing says that only a demo version was tested so far, to clear the base techs of this upgrade (Boeing Briefing from Aero India, Page 14):

My argument is based on this

Dubai 09: Boeing aims to win Indian deal with engine offer

Paul Oliver, Boeing's senior director for international business development, confirms the F414 enhanced performance engine (EPE) was submitted as part of Boeing's proposal to win the MMRCA contract.

so yuo mean to say that this guy is lying?.. if you feel he is lying then end of chapter there is no need to continue on this topic further

http://www.boeing.com/AeroIndia2011/pdf/Aero_India_Super_Hornet_Briefing.pdf


And here is the official press release of Boeing, to their reply on the MMRCA RFP in 2008:

Boeing: Boeing Delivers Proposal to Equip Indian Air Force with Super Hornet Fighters

Do you see anything about the EPE, or at least an offer of a higher thrust engine?
As long as no test version is available for flight trials, which requires fundings for R&D as well the integration into the fighter, it is nothing more than an option like all these "Silent Hornet" options, or the M88-3, or the EJ 230 engine.

And if you see the link it clearly states

Boeing first revealed plans for the Super Hornet engine upgrade last May, but declined at that time to confirm the EPE would be formally offered to the Indian air force.

so the fact it is not in the site is not a big deal... because the proposal and the site page was created at the same time....

The fact that the SH is the only fighter that has no new, or higher thrust engine available in the trials, or that the SH is the only fighter that really needs more thrust.
You can also turn it around if you want, if all the other fighters fielded new engines, or have better TWRs anyway, why should the offer a higher thrust engine in the last minute?
Any logical answer to this?

 

[sancho]

My argument is based on this

so yuo mean to say that this guy is lying?..

You still don't get it, the options can be part of the proposal from the manufacturer, just look at the EF, where most of the new capabilities are options. But that doesn't mean IAF has to accept them for their competition and as the article said, they rejected them before and based their judgment only on those capabilities that can be tested in the trials. So even if GE now would fund the EPE development alone and integrate an engine into the SH, for IAF it is too late and they will not accept it, but as I said, MoD could have a different oppinion.

 

[dbc]

May be the Rafale engines just fail at air shows? Performance anxiety?

 

[satishkumarcsc]

whoa......his left engine went KAPUT!

 

[kingdurgaking]

whoa......his left engine went KAPUT!

seems a deleberate 1 engine show