Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[MST]

hmmmm yeah i accept that.. but IAF has given a rank to MoD already giving their choice.. which means CAG will validate there Rank with the test point.. If you want to find a mistake you can find that even in the best process also.. even six zigma allows mistake..

Thats only one parameter. Offsets will be equally important.

I dont think even if they get shortilisted it will be the lowest that will win ... we have to see the other offers also.. which we wont get with US products... Further as i said they are subject to end user monitoring which is the biggest bull dung of all agreement.. it is not like monitoring C17 or P8i or Hercules whoese quanity are less.. here they are going to monitor 7 squad dude.. do you think EUMA is good thing on our 7 Squad fleet?.. They are ofcourse stupid in participating in this deal because they knew they have so many hurdles just for the money...

Arree Dude...I am not making judgement if CISMOA is good or bad. Only IAF and MOD knows it. I am only saying that if its bad don't shorlist them. Also I don't think US is stupid. When you are doing business then you try to convert all the potential into a sale. It will be we as buyers who are stupid to shortlist them inspite of concerns i.e. if we shortlist or buy their product.

Regarding the lowest bidder winning or not only time will tell. My assertion is just that if its not the lowest bidder it will be very controversial

 

[sancho]

There are only four serious contenders:
Typhoon
Rafale
SH
Gripen...

First of all, there was not a single reliable report about EF coming out first from the evaluations! Only UK and Italian reports said that, based on a dubious comment of the Indian ambassador in Italy, which has nothing to do with the evaluations. All later reports simply took that as the base and further interpreted it, but when we look at what they was able to show during the trials, it would be more than surprising if they would be anything else then average!


EF used in the trials in India was from German Luftwaffe, which neither have IRST, nor full EWS features, let alone any useful A2G capability. So all they was able to show in India, was the flight performance of the EF, especially with A2A loads!

The weapon trials were held in the UK and some reports says also in Germany, which according my German sources is more than unlikly, at least not with the EF (possibly with Tornados to demonstrate Taurus, or other weapons). UK has the only EFs that has integrated a LDP and can show some strike capabilities now. They are also integrating Paveway 4 LGBs and according to rumors Brimstone missiles, but it is more likely that Tornadors demonstrated A2G missiles.
The EF so far can carry the LDP only at the centerline station, because it is the only fighter in the competition, without a dedicated pod station (Mig 35 doesn't have it, but therefor uses and integrated system). That means it can carry only 2 x fuel tanks and 1000lb or smaller bombs, but no 2000lb PGMs at all, not to mention the missing SEAD, anti ship, or additional stand off weapons!

The EF also has no final AESA radar design yet and all they can show in this regard is the CESAR prototype, which is only the ealry base for their AESA developments. The final radar development is only pre-funded yet and the partner countries still did not decided on it, or what other tech and weapons will be integrated into EF T3A, that is on offer for MMRCA.


Conclusion:

EF for sure impressed in A2A performance and on paper (before the trials), but that's it!
The lack of commitment of the partners, in regard of weapon integration and further developments is the biggest problem and limits it to worse multi role capabilities than our upgraded Mig 29 SMT and Mirage 2000-5.
There is no way the EF was able to practically impress in the trials with multi role performance and if at all, could gave some hints on the potential of T3 (if cleared from the partners someday).


When we talk about future upgrades, we should look at the techs and weapons available first and what additional upgrades are on offer, or needed to make the fighter comparable, but are not funded yet. That gives us a real hint on which version will be more capable and how expensive the fighter will be, when they are upgraded to the same level!


Rafale ($87 millions fly away)

- HMS (tested, but never integrated)
- M88-3 / Kaveri - Snecma engine (the earlier developed as a demonstrator so far, the latter will get the M88-3 core and could be integrated as well. M88-3 requires fundings for final development and integration, Kaveri - Snecma developmend is already cleared and would need only fundings for integration)
- CFTs (developed and tested, but not integrated and not neccesarily needed for Rafale, because it already has a high range)


F18SH ($55 to 60 millions fly away)

- GE 414 EPE (an EDE demonstrator for less costs and fuel consumption was funded by the USN, the EPE instead is waiting for an international customer to fund and integrate it. Boeing and GE officials confirmed, that the USN would go for it only if an export customers pays for it!)
- Enhanced EWS features (MAWS, LWR)
- Integrated IRST (not on offer for India, because it won't be available in time for MMRCA)
- Modern cockpit design (not on offer for India, because it won't be available in time for MMRCA)
- Weapon pod for RCS reductions (not on offer for India, because it won't be available in time for MMRCA)
- CFTs, for longer range (not on offer for India, because it won't be available in time for MMRCA)


EF ($109 millions fly away)

- 2000lb LGB
- JDAM
- RBS 15
- Storm Shadow / Taurus
- CFTs ( to add fuel and free desperately needed weapon stations)
- Avionics and engine upgrades
- AESA radar (early prototypes available, but final development and integration needs fundings)
- TVC (developed, but not integrated, or neccesarily needed)
- Naval Typhoon (not developed, no orders, no other potential customer)


Conclusion

Rafale - All it needs that the others have is HMS, the TWR is already way better than of F18SH and we just need to integrate the Kaveri - Snecma engines to make it even comparable to EF, if not better! It clearly offers the most in return, for the costs, which means less upgrades needed to keep it useful in future as well!
The lack of exports so far (8 countries are considering it at the moment) means only, that the costs will be divided by less customers (Fracnce and India)

F18SH - Lowest unit costs, but apart from AESA radar, clearly on a lower tech level. Most of the features others offers, are not available in time and if the costs for these upgrades will be added, it will be much closer to Rafale price!
Moreover, the USN has it's own upgrade path and has a focus on reducing costs only (stated by Boeing officials), which leaves export customers funding increased capabilities. But Australia is using it just as a stopgap till F35 arrives and already plans with them in the EW role only, just like the USN. That means, India would be the only customer, that has a real interest to increase the capabilities during the 40 year life cycle!


EF - Clearly the costliest choice and depending on what the partners decide for T3A, it will be even more costly to bring it on a comparable level, especially to Rafale!
The naval version has no future at all and would remain completely on Indian fundings.
Future upgrades of the AF version instead will be cheaper, because of more partners and export customers so far, but that doesn't equal the high costs and lack of capabilities now.

 

[sancho]

Sancho i have reservations here.. can you give show me the paper or explan with your knowledge the working modules how it communicates without emitting signals.. .. I will give you a simple knowlege... you need a singal and medium for communication between a transmitter and reciver.. if EW is able to communicate with weapons without emitting signal then it has to be a alien technolgy because the medium here is the air which needs singals to be transmitted..

Why so? SPECTRA uses also the IRST in slave mode to guide weapons and that's passive as well! EF can do it too, but not with data from the EWS, only with external data (AWACS for example). That has nothing to do with alien tech, but with the fact that Rafale is not dependent on 1 active system only, like the F18SH and it's AESA radar. SPECTRA is way more than just a self defense suite and combined with all the other sensors (now even with AESA radar), it gives alternative ways as well.

 

[SpArK]

Wild Goose Chase in the Skies​

India has announced it will sign the much-trumpeted 126-aircraft MMRCA deal worth $12 billion in September. But will it? Unlikely​

At the just concluded eighth annual Aero India exhibition in Bangalore, roaring jets provided the perfect backdrop for a big announcement. In September, declared Defence Minister AK Antony, India would finally sign its much ballyhooed $12 billion deal for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA).

The tender for these planes was first floated in 2007; the first fighter jet was expected to be inducted by the Indian Air Force in 2012. Today, the sky swayamvara drags on. There are six fighters in contention: Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin’s F-16IN Super Viper (both American), Dassault Aviation’s Rafale (French), RSK MiG Corp’s MiG-35 (Russian), EADS’s Eurofighter Typhoon (of a four-member European consortium) and Saab’s Jas-39 Gripen (Swedish).

Though India has yet to announce its final choice, American representatives were already strutting about like winners. The US establishment is convinced that the contract should be awarded to either Boeing or Lockheed Martin as payback for a series of favours, including the Indo-US Nuclear Deal and Washington’s lifting of a ban on technology transfers to Indian defence and space organisations; US Commerce Secretary Gary Locke, who briefed reporters later, even suggested that US firms’ winning the aircraft deal would be consistent with America’s backing of India for a permanent seat at the United Nations Security Council.

Antony, however, wasn’t showing his hand. “This will be a very transparent and an apolitical decision,” he said, echoing Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s almost ritualistic-by-now emphasis on the ‘rule of law’.

But there are signs that the purchase order may not be signed at all, not for fear of antagonising the US, but for more practical reasons. For one, big-ticket defence purchases almost always attract corruption charges. The embattled Government in New Delhi is already battling several scam allegations. The Congress, with the Bofors ghost still haunting it two decades later, would prefer caution over valour.



Already, the September date is attracting qualifiers. “The deal will be signed in September provided those who lose out don’t put a spoke in the wheel,” Air Chief PV Naik worried out loud. The fear of rubbing key contenders the wrong way has a pragmatic dimension.

The Indian defence establishment, while fully aware of US interests in relation with India’s, is also keen to sustain its old equation with Russia. Technology transfers from Russia have proven easier in the past, and this is expected to continue for two reasons. American defence suppliers, being private, have a business interest in keeping technology close to their chest. Also, US deals tend to get entangled in legal stipulations designed to deny technology to countries seen as errant, the threshold for which has always been low.

It’s no surprise, then, that the Russian PAKFA Sukhoi T-50 fighter aircraft is to be the base design model for the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) joint Indo-Russian programme finalised last December. PAKFA stands for Pers-pektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsyi, which is Russian for ‘advanced tactical frontline fighter’.

The FGFA agreement, valued at $30 billion, is even bigger than the MMRCA deal (though over a longer time span). Under it, some 250 stealth fighters are to be produced for the IAF by 2017, with the development work done by India’s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) and Russia’s United Aircraft Corp as equal partners. This is along the lines of the BrahMos venture, under which a supersonic cruise missile has been developed jointly by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Russia’s NPO Mashinostroyenia.

Once developed, the FGFA is expected to represent a generational leap from the MMRCA currently being sought. The FGFA venture is also exciting in terms of HAL’s role, which would involve developing some hi-tech fly-by-wire computer systems and other navigational aids, for example, apart from fuselage composites. The deal also gives the IAF access to Glonass, Russia’s advanced navigation system that guides missiles and smart weapons to their precise targets.

According to Naik, the new plane will be a ‘swing role’ fighter aircraft with an ability to fly undetected (the ‘stealth’ aspect), complete with super-cruise and deep strike capabilities that would be sharpened by highly well networked combat software. This would make it comparable to the American F-22 Raptor or F-35 Lightning II, or even the Chinese J-20 that has been making waves of late.

Once the FGFA design is finalised, India will invest $5.5 billion towards the development of six prototypes. The Russian air force is equally keen to induct the fighters, and the two partners would be free to sell them to a third country.

The US, keen to keep up, has meanwhile sent India feelers on the possible co-development of the latest F-35, but Antony has rejected these. “We are already in an agreement with Russia on the FGFA,” he said, “No other country has offered a fifth generation aircraft in the past. We have already taken a decision and there is no going back.”



While jet development can suffer both cost and time overruns, and India’s own record here has been dismal, defence experts see good reason to expect the FGFA programme to adhere to its timeline. The BrahMos experiment worked well, and this is now seen as the new template for an Indo-Russian venture. Also, Russia needs the jets as much as India does, which should hasten things. “It’s a win-win deal where India can partner, lend expertise, learn and even make money,” says a defence insider.

If the FGFA programme moves fast enough, the MMRCA deal would just be a stopgap measure—perhaps even a dispensable one. Of course, the IAF might be rendered vulnerable in the interim, but not as badly as you might think. India already has a Sukhoi contract with Russia for the supply of 270 Su-30 fighters, nearly half of which have been delivered.

Critics, however, say the IAF needs multi-role jets to complement its heavy Sukhois, which are meant for air dominance. Analyst and retired Air Marshal Philip Rajkumar, who was on the team that evaluated the Hawk trainer in the 1980s, says the MMRCA rationale is that the IAF has too many single-role fighters like the MiG-29 interceptor, deep penetration strike aircraft Jaguar and tactical support plane MiG-27. Most of these are part of an ageing fleet that’s not very combat ready. The IAF’s only multi-role aircraft are the Mirage 2000 and upgraded MiG 21 Bison. Given the Tejas setback, those 126 planes are urgently needed, he argues, and India must act fast. The first 18 fighters would be flown to India, while the rest will have to be manufactured under licence by HAL.

But defence purchases are always dogged by delays. The last major IAF acquisition, the UK-made 66 Advanced Jet Trainer Hawk, was in the works for 22 years. The MMRCA deal should be a lot quicker, hopes Hugh Martin, assistant director, UK Trade and Investment, who’s in Bangalore to push the Eurofighter Typhoon and is pleased by the prospect of an autumn decision. “We are ready if India wants to sign the deal by September,” he says.

The defence insider, however, thinks it unlikely. “The Congress under Prime Minister Manmohan Singh will not sign on the dotted line till the end of its term in 2014,” he says. “This deal could turn out to be the carrot that India is dangling to get things done in a fast-changing world where many Western nations are waking up to its importance.”


Wild Goose Chase in the Skies | OPEN Magazine

 

[Markus]

But there are signs that the purchase order may not be signed at all, not for fear of antagonising the US, but for more practical reasons. For one, big-ticket defence purchases almost always attract corruption charges. The embattled Government in New Delhi is already battling several scam allegations. The Congress, with the Bofors ghost still haunting it two decades later, would prefer caution over valour.

Unbelievable if this happens.

 

[rockstarIN]

The defence insider, however, thinks it unlikely. “The Congress under Prime Minister Manmohan Singh will not sign on the dotted line till the end of its term in 2014,” he says. “This deal could turn out to be the carrot that India is dangling to get things done in a fast-changing world where many Western nations are waking up to its importance.”

^^2014 is too far

 

[kingdurgaking]

Why so? SPECTRA uses also the IRST in slave mode to guide weapons and that's passive as well! EF can do it too, but not with data from the EWS, only with external data (AWACS for example). That has nothing to do with alien tech, but with the fact that Rafale is not dependent on 1 active system only, like the F18SH and it's AESA radar. SPECTRA is way more than just a self defense suite and combined with all the other sensors (now even with AESA radar), it gives alternative ways as well.

My basic question is how is it possible to guide the missile without transferring the data from the source? when you transfer the signal to the missile it is enough for the enemy to locate the source of the missile launcher... Any signal either for Radar or EW is a source marked for detection...

 

[the rafter]

 

[sancho]

My basic question is how is it possible to guide the missile without transferring the data from the source? when you transfer the signal to the missile it is enough for the enemy to locate the source of the missile launcher... Any signal either for Radar or EW is a source marked for detection...

Who said data will not transfered? Radar, IRST, data links, the point is that this will be done passively.


Interesting pic from IDEX 2011 in the UAE, showing weapon loadouts Rafale and EF on offer for them:

Rafale with additional wingstations for 2 x more AAMs and possible triple Scalp / Black Shaheen loading.
EF with CFTs and 2 x Storm Shadow (I guess Black Shaheen should be similar to be used on it as well).

Personally I think the EF would be the better choice for the UAE, especially in the mix with F16IN. Would be a great high / lo mix, with EF also giving the deep penetration strike capabilities (in this config), that they want.
If UAE would fund CFTs and weapon integrations..., it could be a big game changer for MMRCA as well, but same would be the point for Rafale. Latest news reports from IDEX sounded very promising and said, negotiations with them are doing well. HMS, additional weapon stations, M88-3 engine, enhenced radar modes, Meteor integration earlier...
Those Sheiks simply don't know what to do with their money, Dassault and the EF consortium even more, wouldn't mind new fundings.

 

[angeldemon_007]

But there are signs that the purchase order may not be signed at all, not for fear of antagonising the US, but for more practical reasons. For one, big-ticket defence purchases almost always attract corruption charges. The embattled Government in New Delhi is already battling several scam allegations. The Congress, with the Bofors ghost still haunting it two decades later, would prefer caution over valour.

The defence insider, however, thinks it unlikely. “The Congress under Prime Minister Manmohan Singh will not sign on the dotted line till the end of its term in 2014,” he says. “This deal could turn out to be the carrot that India is dangling to get things done in a fast-changing world where many Western nations are waking up to its importance.”

This is alarming as there's a huge possibility of this happening. I think IAF should directly approach PM and tell them the ground situation which is very serious.

 

[duhastmish]

if the mrca is kicked off the chart.

biggest looser will be all the mrca thread fan boys- how many precious life hours they wasted on these thread on various forum.

but as it stand - india will also become a mockery in front of world , and an unreliable customer.

i dont think india can afford to be there, because still india buy almost all of its military hardware from overseas.

 

[kingdurgaking]

EF - Clearly the costliest choice and depending on what the partners decide for T3A, it will be even more costly to bring it on a comparable level, especially to Rafale!
The naval version has no future at all and would remain completely on Indian fundings.
Future upgrades of the AF version instead will be cheaper, because of more partners and export customers so far, but that doesn't equal the high costs and lack of capabilities now.

Sancho Tranche 3A is offered to INDIA.. if not they will be disqualified.. Surely EFT consortium would work out something to make sure the price is comparable to Rafale.. because they wont like to loose to Rafale

 

[kingdurgaking]

but as it stand - india will also become a mockery in front of world , and an unreliable customer.

Soar grapes

 

[SpArK]

Swedish fighter jets make a halt at Chennai airport​

CHENNAI: Six fighter jets and two transport aircraft made a halt at Chennai airport since Sunday night. The aircraft left on Tuesday noon. The purpose of their visit is not known.

"The planes came from Ahmedabad and has left for Andaman and Nicobar Islands," said a senior Airports Authority of India ( AAI) official. "We learnt that the jets came in a formation and left to either the Andamans or Sri Lanka. The fighter jets were parked on the unused secondary runway that is closed for expansion works."

Air force planes belonging to other countries are allowed into India with special permission. A coordinating agency is usually appointed to interact with them to assign flight routes and parking space.

Commander of Tambaram Air Force station group captain Mittal said he was not aware of the visit. "If it was a friendly military joint operation, we would have been notified and the jets would have landed at our air field in Tambaram." The aircrat instead used the civil airport.

A defense ministry official said that the jets may have halted at the airport for re-fuelling enroute to some destination.

Read more: Swedish fighter jets make a halt at Chennai airport - The Times of India Swedish fighter jets make a halt at Chennai airport - The Times of India


WTF is Grippen doing.. is it for the airshow in Srilanka or anything thats not for public???

 

[luckyyy]

My basic question is how is it possible to guide the missile without transferring the data from the source? when you transfer the signal to the missile it is enough for the enemy to locate the source of the missile launcher... Any signal either for Radar or EW is a source marked for detection...

missile also has a computer on board...
before launch all target data get tranfer to missile computer , thereafter missile guided towards it's target of it's own by the help of it's computer & seekers..