Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sancho]

This should be the F18SH growth mock-up, that they will present at Aero India, showing optional techs and upgrades for the future:

 

[angeldemon_007]

@Sancho
BUt you told me previously that aesa is already made and you even posted an article....

Euroradar Caesar active electronically scanned array takes flight in Eurofighter Typhoon

May 14, 2007

Basildon, U.K., 14 May 2007. The Euroradar Caesar active electronically scanned array (AESA) variant of the Captor radar system has completed a flight test program in the Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft. The flights were conducted by EADS from the Manching facility in Germany.

Euroradar Caesar active electronically scanned array takes flight in Eurofighter Typhoon - Military & Aerospace Electronics

 

[angeldemon_007]

This should be the F18SH growth mock-up, that they will present at Aero India, showing optional techs and upgrades for the future:

Yeah, it might be possible. Later you know, they will say they are abandoning this project. But their might be a different angle to this, this growth plan might mean a regular income for these guys...

 

[sancho]

Eurofighter_1 Typhoon completes 100,000 flying hours .

Here is a nice video about it, showing EFs of all partner and customer countries:

Eurofighter: Video Library

@Sancho
BUt you told me previously that aesa is already made and you even posted an article....

The firstflight of the AESA tech demonstrator, similar to the Gripen NG with the first Selex AESA tech demonstrator, that had it's firstflight in 2009.
However, both are only early versions, with the final design and development still coming only. The first flight of the Raven AESA in the final Gripen E/F is also planed for 2013 only, which could be a reason why they try to sell us Gripen C/D as a stop gap, just like the EF consortium tries to sell EFs without AESA first.
And that is the big difference that the French AESA has, by the time the others makes their first flights, it will be even in operational service. When they others deliver the first pre-mature versions, the French might even upgrade the RBE 2:

Radar revolution: the arrival of gallium nitride components opens up new applications for radars, including jamming and telecomm

... In this way, explains Thales Airborne Systems technical director Pierre Fossier, it should be possible to launch the first system applications in 2010. In France, one of the leading candidates for the new technology is the offensive jammer, a capacity that the French Air Force has had its eyes on for several years, and which has already given rise to the Carbone airborne demonstrator. The performance of the system attracted a lot of attention at NATO's Mace X electronic warfare exercise in the year 2000.

The DGA procurement branch of the French MoD is continuing to provide limited funding for exploratory work by Thales while awaiting for national budgets to kick in to complete development. GaN would allow for a reduction in the size of the jammer, potentially clearing the way for integration into a combat aircraft...

... Rafale lead

As far as Europe's combat aircraft programmes are concerned, the Rafale seems to have established a lead over Typhoon and Gripen in the race to integrate an active array antenna. This is primarily because--unlike its competitors--the transition to active-array technology on the Rafale's electronically scanned RBE2 was planned from the outset, avoiding the need for the more extensive (and expensive) modifications required on the mechanical antennas of the Typhoon and Gripen. The increase in range that the new technology will bring is deemed essential if the aircraft is to fully exploit the potential of the future ramjet-powered Meteor missile, due to enter service in the early years of the next decade. Without it, pilots will rely on target designation from another platform to strike targets at the limits of the Meteor envelope...

... According to Thales, the RBE2 AA will offer 50% greater range than the current RBE2 and a huge increase in reliability--major overhaul every 7-10 years, compared with a current TWT service life of around 100 hours. It will also be possible to generate SAR images in air-to-ground mode with 1 m resolution or better, and to detect at long range low-reflection airborne targets, including stealthy UAVs and UCAVs.

No state funding has yet been made available to fund the active-array transition for Typhoon and Gripen. Euroradar (Selex SAS/EADS/Galileo Avionica/Indra) launched its own Caesar demonstrator programme for Typhoon in 2003. The demonstrator made its first flight on a BAC 1-11 testbed in February 2006. Caesar combines the back end from the existing Captor with an antenna partially featuring active GaAs modules from UMS (Germany) and Filtronic (UK). Captor air-to-air modes have been partially adapted to the new antenna. Caesar was flight tested on a Typhoon development aircraft (DA5) in May.

Industry is hopeful of an order as part of the Tranche 3 batch of Eurofighters, currently due to be ordered in 2009 for delivery starting in 2012. According to industry officials, the operating cost gains due to improved reliability would compensate for the extra cost due to development of the new antenna...

...On the other hand, if the power of GaN is used to trim the number of modules, this means that the size of the antenna--and the nose section of the aircraft--can be significantly reduced, with an obvious payoff in terms of aerodynamics and stealth. The aircraft's stealth characteristics would be further improved by the fact that, by sharing the same antenna for radar, jamming and communications functions, there would be a reduction in the number of reflectors for enemy radars.

Another consequence of the smaller antenna is on increase in beam width. The tradeoff is a slight loss of resolution, but this is not a major problem in air-to-air situations where missiles have their own active seekers that can compensate for shortcomings in target designation. In air-to-ground modes, however, a wider beam enables a given area to be covered more quickly to establish cartography. Also, in jamming mode, the aiming accuracy in relation to a hostile transmitter would be less demanding.

Radar revolution: the arrival of gallium nitride components opens up new applications for radars, including jamming and telecomm - Entrepreneur.com


So with the GaN modules, the RBE 2 AESA could increase the capabilities even more, without the smaller size nose beeing a problem. Moreover, these modules will increase the capabilities of SPECTRA even further!

 

[angeldemon_007]

So with the GaN modules, the RBE 2 AESA could increase the capabilities even more, without the smaller size nose beeing a problem. Moreover, these modules will increase the capabilities of SPECTRA even further!

I think we should also put some money in this and ask for JV with France in this field as it will be very helpful in our future projects like AMCA and FGFA...

 

[SpArK]

Brazil mudslides delay Gripen fighter decision​

Brazilian Defense Minister Nelson Jobim on Tuesday ruled out for now a decision on a multi-billion dollar fighter aircraft contract vied for by France, Sweden and the United States.



Jobim said he hopes the competition will be resolved this year but at the moment the government is too tied up dealing with the aftermath of floods and mudslides that left 830 people dead and 25,000 homeless near Rio.

"This is not the moment to decide," he said.

"We are in an emergency situation, with rains and disasters," the state-run Agencia Brasil quoted him as saying.

The contract for 36 fighters has an initial value estimated at $4 billion to $10 billion, with the possibility of many more aircraft in the future.

But the competition has dragged on for years, with President Dilma Rousseff inheriting it from her predecessor Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva.

Jobim indicated that despite the latest setback, the bidding would not go back to square one, and said Russia's Sukhoi fighters would not be allowed back into the running.

"There is nothing like that," he said.

"The Russians were already disqualified at the start of the process."

He said the only fighters under consideration were the French-made Rafale, the Swedish Gripen NG and the US F-18 Super Hornet.

A decision on the bid will be followed by at least 12 months of complex negotiations on technical matters and the terms of the deal, Jobim said.

Brazil wants the deal to include not just the aircraft but also technology transfers. Lula had said he favored the Rafale, but in the end he opted to leave the decision to his successor.
AFP/The Local (news@thelocal.se)

Brazil mudslides delay Gripen fighter decision - The Local

 

[rockstarIN]

IF EF AESA will not be ready before 2015 and its in technical evaluation stage, what is the use to go after them?

Can anybody tell, apart from F-18, which competitor will get AESA integrated and supply ASAP to India?

 

[rockstarIN]

And IAF will get MRCA in around 2018 to use in war? if we get the deliveries starting from 2014???

 

[sancho]

I think we should also put some money in this and ask for JV with France in this field as it will be very helpful in our future projects like AMCA and FGFA...

As the article stated, the GaN modules will be developed by Thales and EADS and both are participating in the AESA radar co-development for Tejas MK2, so there is a chance to get these in future as well. If Rafale would be chosen in MMRCA, it would even be a good idea to develop a radar for Tejas based on RBE 2, or commonality and reduced costs (at the moment IAF has 7 different fighters with 7 different radars!).

IF EF AESA will not be ready before 2015 and its in technical evaluation stage, what is the use to go after them?

Can anybody tell, apart from F-18, which competitor will get AESA integrated and supply ASAP to India?

You just need to look at the fighter versions that attended the trials, to see the development status:

F18SH - First, all Block 2 features on offer are fully developed and operational, unlike the EPE engine, or other upgrade options that we could choose if we pay extra.

F16IN - Second, based on the Block 60, with most parts developed and already operational with the UAE. They even fielded the new CFTs in the trials, but I'm not sure how far the avionics changes are.

Rafale F3+ - Third, came with AESA radar and most likely the M88 2E4 engine, that is upgraded for more cost-effectiveness, and the targeting pod. Things left are upgrades on FSO (IRST/TV Channel) and EWS, that will be ready by 2012.

Mig 35 - Fourth, no real Mig 35 prototype available, only modified Mig 29K and KUBs entered the trials, but with an early AESA radar. It's not clear which version exactly, but for sure not the final one that is said to offer 200Km range. Russia officially stated that the production of Mig 35 can only start by 2013, but delays by the lack of orders and funds are likely.

EF - Fifth, German Luftwaffe T2 entered the trials, without AESA radar, without IRST, without full EWS, or A2G capabilities. Weapon trials was done in the UK, by british EFs and it's likely that they showed the the CEASAR AESA radar tech demonstrator as well. But till the partner countries get to a final decision about fundings and capabilities of the T3 upgrade, all the proposed techs and weapons are only theoretical.

Gripen NG, or E/F - Last, older Gripen C/D versions made the trials, because no final Gripen E/F prototype is available and even the Gripen NG tech demonstrator was not available, nor capable to do it all. The NG came with AESA demonstrator, one month delayed and made only the Leh trials again. Weapon trials were made in Sweden, but most likely on the older versions again, because the NG can use weapons so far (if at all A2A missiles only).


Only the US and the French have AESA radars ready now, the Russians maybe in time, the Gripen and EF hardly in time and in a pre-mature developmentstage (Aviationweek reported EF AESA will only have A2A modes by then).

 

[sancho]

Brazil mudslides delay Gripen fighter decision​

Was confused how the came to the coclusion about a decision towards Gripen, because the article itself doesn't say anything like that, but then I saw that it's a Swedish website.

 

[angeldemon_007]

EF - Fifth, German Luftwaffe T2 entered the trials, without AESA radar, without IRST, without full EWS, or A2G capabilities. Weapon trials was done in the UK, by british EFs and it's likely that they showed the the CEASAR AESA radar tech demonstrator as well. But till the partner countries get to a final decision about fundings and capabilities of the T3 upgrade, all the proposed techs and weapons are only theoretical.

I am sure Typhoon will win but the conditions stated above is alarming...According to me rafale should win, if the above development is true.

 

[vikraant AC]

The French Fighter Jet That Nobody Wants
The Rafale has cost $53 billion and is the key to France's defense economy, but it's not selling abroad

By Carol Matlack
The Rafale fighter, made by France's Dassault Aviation, is loaded with high-tech avionics, radar, and targeting systems. Now all it needs are customers. France has been peddling the supersonic jet since 2000 and hasn't sold a single one. In the latest setback, Brazil said on Jan. 17 that it would reopen bidding for a fighter contract worth up to $7 billion—a deal France had thought it was close to sealing last year. Neither Dassault nor the French Defense Ministry would comment on Brazil's decision.

The Rafale's plight signals the end of an era for France. With their Mirage fighter program, developed in the 1950s, the French were able to bolster their national defense, promote new technologies, and provide well-paying jobs—while recouping much of the cost by exporting hundreds of jets worldwide. Hoping to duplicate that model, the French government has spent some $53 billion on the Rafale, more than the country's $40 billion annual defense budget. But deal after deal has fallen through, with prospective buyers South Korea, Singapore, and Morocco choosing Boeing's (BA) F-15 and Lockheed Martin's (LMT) F-16 over the Rafale.

Midsize suppliers such as France are being outgunned by bigger competitors. The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, for example, is being developed by a U.S.-led consortium of nine countries that plan to buy more than 2,500 of the planes. That will ensure plenty of revenue from production and upgrades. Britain, Germany, Italy, and Spain have similarly joined forces to produce the new Eurofighter jet. "Nationally driven, nationally financed and controlled production of the most advanced weapons systems is now the exclusive purview of the U.S. and Russia, and in the future, China as well," says Mark Bromley, a senior researcher at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, a Swedish think tank.

Changing global politics has worked against France, too. During the Cold War, France successfully marketed the Mirage as an alternative to U.S. and Soviet planes. Other customers, such as the United Arab Emirates, bought French planes after the U.S. balked at providing high-tech weaponry. Now, though, the U.S. is eagerly seeking sales in the Gulf states. Many foreign governments, in turn, see arms deals as a way to forge closer defense ties with the U.S., says Loïc Tribot La Spière, an analyst at the Center for Studies and Prospective Strategy, a Paris think tank. "The sentiment is, 'We buy American because it assures security,' " he says.

The 93 Rafales produced by Dassault so far have gone to the French armed forces. To sustain production, the government has agreed to spend $1.1 billion on more Rafales over three years, even as it tries to pare budget deficits.

Finding customers will only get harder. As the Joint Strike Fighter enters service, U.S. manufacturers are set to increase their share of the $16 billion-a-year fighter aircraft market over the next decade from nearly 58 percent to more than 67 percent, according to forecasts by the Virginia-based Teal Group aerospace consultancy. Eurofighter and Russian manufacturers will get most of the rest, Teal predicts.

The longer the Rafale order book stays empty, the harder it will be to sell the plane, Teal analyst Richard Aboulafia says. "Customers like to see a home government that is determined to keep spending on buying and upgrading the aircraft" with the latest technology. Instead, he says, the Rafale is on budgetary life support. "That's the last thing you want customers to see."

The bottom line: France's decision to go it alone on its fighter program has cost the country $53 billion, with no export sales to offset the price.

Matlack is a Paris correspondent for Bloomberg Businessweek.

Source:The French Fighter Jet That Nobody Wants - BusinessWeek

so this simply means india should ask france for co-devloping the french fighter if it wants to induct it

 

[vikraant AC]

i also think rafale should win this mmrca

 

[MST]

IF EF AESA will not be ready before 2015 and its in technical evaluation stage, what is the use to go after them?

Can anybody tell, apart from F-18, which competitor will get AESA integrated and supply ASAP to India?

Only the teens and Rafale have operational AESA. The teens have lot more mature AESA compared to Rafale.

Eurofigher is expected to get AESA by 2015 while SAAB signed the deal for the development for raven AESA in 2009 only so they will be the last to get the AESA. I don't know about Mig 35

 

[MST]

The problem now with Rafale (with Brazililian Competition being opened up again as well as delayed) is that who will pay for the future upgrades of the aircraft.
The French are themselves trying to cut cost by focusing on export of the plane but without any success. So will India have to support these upgrades? This is a big question mark right now. Inspite of being a good plane these factors can hurt Rafale's chances in the competition.

Regarding co-development is concerned the French have spent over $50 Billion on the R&D of the plane. I don't think they are going to just give us the co - development rights for $10 Billion deal. Also India just comitted $30 billion for FGFA. So I don't think MOD will have an appetite for another co-development. esp for a plane which is very expensive and we cannot inducted in very large numbers.

With Gripen NG coming around 2017 and if what Sancho has said about Euro Fighter is still valid then I guess the Super Bug becomes the front runner esp. if the Yanks play their cards right ( e.g in terms of offset and giving the EPE version of the engine) .
And I don't see why they won't.