Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[captonjohn]

Hey guys,
No offense, but I think rather than naming your favorite fighter jets the discussion should be:
1) What is lacking in the IAF fleet (apart from decreased squadrons) that India is looking to fulfill through MMRCA?
2) Which among the six contenders in true sense can fulfill this and NOT just jets with loaded with features to compete with F-22/F-35?
3) Which ones are cheaper in terms of life-cycle cost and maintenance?

Thanks a lot!

Nice question, Here is my answer.

1. IAF is lacking in air superiority which is most important factor in 21st century as well as effective A2G capability. RCS would third need.

2. Now among six contender
F-18 has very effective air to ground capability but it lack in air to air superiority role hence its role becomes limited for IAF needs in which MRCA may need to fight against many fighters of Pak-China air force. Also at present both Pak-China has very limited air to air superiority fighters and hence india can easily get advantage in air to air superiority.
To win future war air superiority is must to hold our and enemy's sky control.

Mig-35 is in its development stage and doesn't meet the needs what IAF wants also there not any big technological advantage seems between Mig-29 and Mig-35.

Rafale and Eurofighter are the main competitor but rafale is also not completely developed and its AESA radar is also in development stage. Eurofighter has advantage in this case because of its developed stage and effective air to air role. Of course it also don't have desired air to ground capability but it may fulfill nearly 90% needs of IAF.

Another reason to win eurofighter may be some strategical and political matters like if India engage in war with Pak or china then US may interrupt its supply which can affect indian capability if india choose F-18 this is negative point of this fighter.

Hence in my view Euro fighter has true potential to win but it could be win-win condition if India choose two fighters for its MRCA. Then it would be Euro fighter and F-18 of course.

3. The third question of cost is important but IAF doesn't seems to compromise on quality over quality hence it is least likely to affect indian MRCA deal.

 

[SpArK]

Has anybody got any update on Mig's proposed light weight 5th Generation fighter?


Reported many years back.. never heard anything after that.


http://www.ato.ru/content/migs-fifth-generation-fighter-builds-new-momentum

 

[!!craft!!]

Has anybody got any update on Mig's proposed light weight 5th Generation fighter?


Reported many years back.. never heard anything after that.


MiG's Fifth Generation Fighter Builds up New Momentum | ???????????????? ?????????

i think the project is scraped .MiG-1.44 was a testbed. It was never meant to go into production. Just an experimental plane. It was the first testbed with TVC, *some* stealth features, lowered IR emmisions and internal weapon bay. It served its purpose, now its sitting in some dusty hangar at MiG plant in Zhukovskiy.

 

[SpArK]

i think the project is scraped .MiG-1.44 was a testbed. It was never meant to go into production. Just an experimental plane. It was the first testbed with TVC, *some* stealth features, lowered IR emmisions and internal weapon bay. It served its purpose, now its sitting in some dusty hangar at MiG plant in Zhukovskiy.

Thanks for the info.. we should have joined them when they were seeking foreign partners back then..

Anyway lets move with our on medium one..

Any latest "reports" on who has won as usual..

 

[sancho]

My attempt to answer that. Is.

IAF lacks a fighter in low RCS
Late 4th Generation catagory
With true strike capability BUT also Air Superiority ability
TOT
and to be viable in a Indo China or Indo Pak scenario til 2040 in terms of tech...

...For me 3 euro contenders are the best.

Gripen is the cheapest
Rafael the most costly.


WHICH MEANS the one LEFT IS THE TYPHOON.

Wrong conclusion Storm Force, because even British reports admit that EF is the most expensive fighter and are guessing mainly that it could be cheaper during the life cycle, but it is for sure not as cost-effective as Rafale for Indian forces:

The disclosure is a significant boost for the Typhoon consortium, but it must now address Indian concerns that the Eurofighter is more expensive than its competitors in upfront costs. British, German, Spanish and Italian officials are confident however that it will be cheaper than its competitors over the lifetime of its deployment.

UK closes in on $11bn fighter deal - Telegraph

You are right that strike capabilities are important for MMRCA, but exactly here the EF lacks far behind, so it doesn't really fit to the requirements you mentioned right?

Has anybody got any update on Mig's proposed light weight 5th Generation fighter?


Reported many years back.. never heard anything after that.

Hi Benny,there are rumors that China is using the Mig design (maybe it was even sold to them) as a base for their 5. gen fighter development.


P.S. a new pic of the Gripen NG demonstrator with 2 LGBs, the new fuel tanks METEOR and IRIS-T missiles:

If we had teamed up with Saab for Gripen/Tejas in that time, there would be no question about MMRCA. We would see numbers of MK1 flying for years and jointly develop the NG/MK 2 version now. Sad that we missed a good chance, because we wanted to develop everything alone!

 

[sancho]

...Rafale in my opinion is equally good. It is good in A to A and A to G role, has a working AESA (even though not as advanced as F16IN and Super hornet). It also has a operational navy version. But for some reasons has not been able to make a single international sale (although its reported to be closing on Brazil deal). It is costly compared to eurofighter. This makes the spares and life-time costs high. Also, it needs up-grades (not sure who will pay for this).
Even though all I stated is my opinion through various articles and websites i've read. I seriously invite experts in IAF and around the world reading this to contribute their views and suggestions.

Hi rafter, you made a good summary, but these 2 points are not correct, the Rafale is not more expensive than EF, check my last post and it don't needs further upgrades. When you compare the versions that were offered in MMRCA, it is the fighter with one of the highest tech and maturity levels.
There is no fighter in the competition that offers a very low RCS, a ready AESA radar, high sensor fusion, integrated IRST and even 5. gen EWS capabilities, a good T/W ratio and maneuverability, high payload, numbers of weapon stations, and range + advanced weapons combined in 1 package that is even available from 2012 onwards!
Besides several other advantages that the French offers in the deal, imo the Rafale is the only fighter in the competition, that could be used in SFC and IN for the nuclear role and as a carrier fighter too. That means, we can use the omni role advantage to the max for all of our forces too and no other fighter gives this advantage too (doubt that the F18SH could be an alternative for the nuclear role)! So instead of procuring different fighters, for different roles, with different spares and weapons, we could simply use Rafale and get a high ammount of commonality!

 

[SpArK]

Hi Benny,there are rumors that China is using the Mig design (maybe it was even sold to them) as a base for their 5. gen fighter development.

oops.

 

[Sri]

Has anybody got any update on Mig's proposed light weight 5th Generation fighter?


Reported many years back.. never heard anything after that.


MiG's Fifth Generation Fighter Builds up New Momentum | ???????????????? ?????????

.:: MiG-LFI / I-2000 ::.


There is not much info available on this

 

[KEETARP]

Sancho & Rafale still going great guns , uhmm

Hi Benny,there are rumors that China is using the Mig design (maybe it was even sold to them) as a base for their 5. gen fighter development.

But Mig's light weight fighter design was supposed to be a single engined one , MigI2000 or something like that .
How can JXX which is rumored to be twin engined , will be based on same design .

If we had teamed up with Saab for Gripen/Tejas in that time, there would be no question about MMRCA. We would see numbers of MK1 flying for years and jointly develop the NG/MK 2 version now. Sad that we missed a good chance, because we wanted to develop everything alone!

LCA + Gripen on same side is still possible , infact with Ge414 i am much more hard pressed to believe

 

[sancho]

Hi Prateek, haven't seen you for quit a while now, but good that you are back!

Sancho & Rafale still going great guns , uhmm

For sure, because there is no new reason to believe that another fighter would suit Indian forces better and that's why I support it.

But Mig's light weight fighter design was supposed to be a single engined one , MigI2000 or something like that .
How can JXX which is rumored to be twin engined , will be based on same design .

I replied to Bennys post, where the source refers to Mig 1.44 as the base for LMFS:

Most probably, the LMFS will retain the delta canard configuration of the heavy MiG 1.44 prototype. Being asked directly about the new fighter configuration, Barkovskiy answered indirectly: "It would be illogical if we reject the experience we accumulated while developing that project [MiG 1.44]." He also mentioned that "the number of wind tunnel tests [of the 1.44 models] was vast, setting a new record in Russia. [So] we are making use of these materials and transforming them into the fifth generation aircraft."
It is not known at the moment whether the new MiG fighter will be powered by one or two engines. Originally, the company's design had two Klimov VK-10 turbofans rated at about 10.5 tons each, which are a further development of the MiG-29's RD-33 engines.

Mig 1.44:

Possible J-XX design:

It would be a logical design evolution of the J10 too and could use the same engine that J11 and J10 are using. One have to admit, that they clearly did the right choice by choosing a medium class Lavy / J10 design instead of a light class LCA design like us.

LCA + Gripen on same side is still possible , infact with Ge414 i am much more hard pressed to believe

Unlikely, because in that time we could have combined both developments into one, which would have provided much more benefits like:

- Gripen design but high content of Indian compoite materials
- Kaveri - Volvo engine, not a foreign procured engine that is not sanction proof
- Ericsson - LRDE MM and AESA radar, again a co-development that gives us total control
- Jointly developed datalinks, EWS and other avionics

They would have been the logical partner for us then, because of common aims and they could helped us in the fields where we lacked behind (airframe design, engine and radar developments) and we could helped them where they had problems (a partner with enough money to fund the project, that has a big own requirement, that wants to develop an own engine, instead of procuring a foreign one, that offer the advantage of low production costs and knowledge about composite materials).

But now things are different, Gripen and Tejas are 2 similar fighters and even competitors at the same level, in comparison to a Tejas / Rafale combo for example. Also MMRCA now is aimed on advantages for our forces as well our industry and the politics too and that will break Gripens neck in India like it possibly did already in Brazil.
Gripen NG DEMO is still under development only just like our own Tejas, has no orders yet, has average strike capability and is not sanction prove, which obviously will be a problem for our forces. The ToT is limited because all main techs comes from foreign countries, Saab also can offer only less offsets than other vendors (like it was reported in other competitions too), so it doesn't help our industry and we all know that Sweden has no political, or strategic value for India.
If a common engine between LCA and MMRCA is a point, then only for the SH and the US obviously will take care of it by providing ToT only if we choose the SH, but less for the Gripen...

 

[BATMAN]

I would disagree to the scheme being discussed above.

I think if English, French, Americans, Russians and Israelis failed to help you than venture with Swedish may not have turned up any different.

MIG-35 (almost same as MIG-29K which we already have). The new MIG has the AESA radar but offers nothing new from Mig-29 and more over its for air superiority.

Is it a bad deal? Honestly, this is the best option for IAF but of course F-16 is tempting.

 

[CONNAN]

Thanks for the info.. we should have joined them when they were seeking foreign partners back then..

Anyway lets move with our on medium one..

Any latest "reports" on who has won as usual..

for some reason i smell french cheese

 

[Vimana1]

French would sell Rafale technology to China without even blinking if EU did not have a embargo, the best bet for India is the EF which is a true MRCA in every respect the Rafale has not won a single order because it is inferior to the EF just ask the Saudis.

 

[Hulk]

I also agree Rafael makes sense. I will not like to go the US route as they want all those agreements signed. Plus French will provide us best TOT that can help our future plans.

 

[the rafter]

1) Can anyone provide any info about which amongst the six contenders have the ability to fly at high altitudes? and whether this can be used to evade detection or G to A missiles?
2) Which ones have the best Radar detection evading paint along with low RCS? eg. link: (New Stealth Nano-Paint Turns Any Aircraft Into a Radar-Evading Stealth Plane | Popular Science)