Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[palash_kol]

One of the good points in the whole article is the possible integration of METEOR on Su-30 MKI....What a fighter it will become with AESA+BRAHMOS+METEOR+K-100 ...

It would be more destructive if it was a fifth gen fighter + your specification....

 

[kish]

It would be more destructive if it was a fifth gen fighter + your specification....

which fifth gen fighter ????

though i m agree with u but no fifth gen fighter will be available to us soon as u can see
f 22 not for sell
f 35 still time to induct and there are so many in Que already and very unlikely that we can produce it in home with full TOT. (correct me if wrong)
pak fa/ffga ...long way to go

but
we have mki right now ... better to speculate about mki which we have and jha put a good point


one more thing,,
a 5th gen fighter will already equip with most of these specification so no need to call these specification separately when we use term fifth gen fighter jet.

 

[palash_kol]

which fifth gen fighter ????

though i m agree with u but no fifth gen fighter will be available to us soon as u can see
f 22 not for sell
f 35 still time to induct and there are so many in Que already and very unlikely that we can produce it in home with full TOT. (correct me if wrong)
pak fa/ffga ...long way to go

but
we have mki right now ... better to speculate about mki which we have and jha put a good point


one more thing,,
a 5th gen fighter will already equip with most of these specification so no need to call these specification separately when we use term fifth gen fighter jet.

No...I dont have any fifth gen aircraft right now...

What I said is that if we would have, then that would be great.....

Yah...We will get PAK-FA by 2017....

Just think if PAK-FA can carry Brahmos, metior, Python 5 and K-172(PAK-FA will surely get AESA..because thats mandatory for a 5th gen fighter), no enemy will come close....

 

[kish]

No...I dont have any fifth gen aircraft right now...

What I said is that if we would have, then that would be great.....

Yah...We will get PAK-FA by 2017....

Just think if PAK-FA can carry Brahmos, metior, Python 5 and K-172(PAK-FA will surely get AESA..because thats mandatory for a 5th gen fighter), no enemy will come close....

dude .. I understood ur points but as u said " if we would have" & "pak fa by 2017 " and it will again take time to have good strength of 5th gen fighter ....
but in 2017 we will have full strength of mki and we can make them more deadliest by adding these fire power ..
when we talking about a 5th gen fighter no need to talk about these ++ coz they will already have them or may be more advance then what mentioned here ,
till 2017 view may change because there may be new missile system and so so ,,,

yes i m agree with u ,, but only when we will have them or going to have them in near future ..
i would like to speculate about mki which we have right now ready to be upgraded in way our goverment and air force want.
it sound much better ,

 

[palash_kol]

dude .. I understood ur points but as u said " if we would have" & "pak fa by 2017 " and it will again take time to have good strength of 5th gen fighter ....
but in 2017 we will have full strength of mki and we can make them more deadliest by adding these fire power ..
when we talking about a 5th gen fighter no need to talk about these ++ coz they will already have them or may be more advance then what mentioned here ,
till 2017 view may change because there may be new missile system and so so ,,,

yes i m agree with u ,, but only when we will have them or going to have them in near future ..
i would like to speculate about mki which we have right now ready to be upgraded in way our goverment and air force want.
it sound much better ,

MKI will be have Brahmos by 2013-2014...So there is no need to worry about....

But the question is will it be integrated in PAK-FA also....Since MKI can be detected more than hundred kilometers away...whereas the PAK-FA can be detected only 25-30 kilometers away.... So if PAK-FA can also carry it...There will be no match for it....

Since Brahmos is very heavy and PAK-FA will not be able to carry it under its belly...there is only option to carry it in the underwing pylons....In that case it will have to carry 2 Brahmos for balancing two wings....in total 6000kg....So there will be options of carrying only 3000-4000kgs of other weapons....

Only god knows if PAK-FA will be able to carry Brahmos......

 

[kish]

MKI will be have Brahmos by 2013-2014...So there is no need to worry about....

it sounds good ..

But the question is will it be integrated in PAK-FA also....Since MKI can be detected more than hundred kilometers away...whereas the PAK-FA can be detected only 25-30 kilometers away.... So if PAK-FA can also carry it...There will be no match for it....

only if it can carry underbelly ,,, pls any member provide if have some information about that ..

Since Brahmos is very heavy and PAK-FA will not be able to carry it under its belly...there is only option to carry it in the underwing pylons..

underwing pylon?? ... i doubt it
and also ... any weapon on pylon make a fighter dirty [no stealthy] and i will be detected easily by radar

Only god knows if PAK-FA will be able to carry Brahmos......

dont worry our hal and drdo person already know whether it can carry or not ...

 

[sancho]

Hi, Softtech, thx for your patience, but here is the promised comparison (part 1).

2.Lower RCS, more range, more payload - how much difference? think its so less to give importance.
But with block 2 upgraded radar has big difference in favor of SH.At any time SH will watch and track rafale better, faster and clearer

Lets start with the basic specs and see if the difference in performance and capabilities is really so less:

AB thrust - Rafale 2 x 75kN / F18SH 2 x 98kN
Empty weight - 9.5t / 13.8t
internal fuel - 4700Kg / 6530Kg
=> T/W ratio - 1.07 / 0.97 (clean config + pilot + 100% internal fuel + AB thrust, I calculated them myself and not just took them from the net, because I wanted an equal base and not specs from different versions. Ratios available on the net are even better for Rafale and worse for the SH!)

Load factor - Rafale +9G/-3.2G / F18SH 7.6G
Wing load - 326 kg/m2 / 620.0 kg/m2 (lower = better)
Rate of climb - 304.8 m/s / 254 m/s
VMAX - Mach 1.8+ both
Combat range - 1852Km+ in penetration mission / 722.28Km in interdiction mission
CAP loiter time - over 3h / 2.15h
Ceiling - 16764m / 15240m
Payload - 9.5t / 8t
Weapon stations - 10 (12 possible) five of them heavy + 2 extra for pods / 11 five of them heavy, no dedicated pod station

Sources:

Aircraft Characteristics

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/fa18ef/docs/EF_overview.pdf

Federation of American Scientists :: F/A-18 Hornet


As you can see, based by pure performance specs and capabilities of the fighter design itself, the Rafale beats the SH in nearly all fields, simply because the design aim was a different one. The SH is a pure carrier fighter design, meant to deliver strikes but it's A2A capabilities are dependent mainly on its techs and weapons. Rafale instead was designed to replace several different French fighters in different roles (air defense, strikes, carrier), which means it must offer different advantages for these roles too and that's why the fighter designs needed to be more balanced.

A small reminder here, according to chhindits.blogspot the RFP of the MMRCA competition REQUIRES a T/W ratio of 1:1 or better and it should be a 9G aircraft ! ! !

Chindits: MMRCA Update : F-18 Has Underpowered Engine, No One 100% Compliant, Says Report, Vendors Revise Their Prices !!

So if chhindits is right, the SH does not fulfill these minimum performance requirements!
The advantage of Rafales flight performance is even acknowledged by US Pilots, that faced it in exercises, here an excerpt from an aviation magazin of 2008:

French Rafale on the Teddy" ~ The special report of Rafale M F2's performance during the JTFEX exercise, 2008.

1. In Page 37, a photo shows a Rafale M of 12F flew with an F/A-18F from the Blacklions Squadron, the first frontline squadron of Superhornet Block II.


2. Rafale M F2 met with F/A-18E/F in several 1 v 1 BFM and 2 v 2 AA missions during the exercise. However, both sides didn't show their real and complete fighting capability to each other ~ US pilots didn't show the true capability of JHMCS + AIM-9X to French pilots, while 12F was also shy about showing the real capabilities of RBE2 radar, Spectra EWS, and FSO optronic systems.


3. A USN pilot's (Lt Mike Tremel, pilot of VFA-31 "Tomcatters") comments for Rafale M:

"A highly maneuverable fighter with an incredible capacity to point its nose in every direction in the sky."

"The French pilots seem to be happy to its flight performance and its modern cockpit design".

When asked if he would like to swap his Super hornet to a Rafale --> "No, I love my Super Bug way too much...."


4. A French pilot's (pilot of 12F) comments for F/A-18E:

"A great bombing aircraft, but not a fighter for dogfighting."

"Its acceleration capability in the high angle of incidence is not good."

"Rafale is definitely the more nimble one."

As you can see, the us pilot is impressed by the maneuverability, the flight performance and also the modern cockpit design, which leads us directly to the F18SH upgrades.

With future SH upgrade(by 2015).The gap will increase more.

Is that true? Let us look at what Boeing has proposed for the future and compare it with the Rafale!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/TEfV7LcBvfI/AAAAAAAAK8w/MkTfQtTHliY/s1600/BOEING1.JPG


The F18SH has an edge in terms of AESA radar, which is not deniable, but on the other side it lacks in several other fields where the Rafale already offers more and the SH needs this upgrade to reduce the gap!

1) Rafale already offers an modern designed cockpit, unlike the SH that still uses even some analog displays, the SH will get this with the uprgade only!
2) Rafale already offers an integrated IRST, the SH will get this with the upgrade only!
3) Rafale already offers a good T/W ratio, the SH will get this with the upgrade only!
4 )Rafale already offers very low RCS, the F18SH is trying to reduce it by using a weapon pod, but this is useful only with added CFTs, because the pod occupies the centerline station for fuel tanks, which would reduce range even more and the SH will get this with the upgrade only!
5) Rafale already offers spherical missile/laser warning (DDM) and will get even an improved version (comparable to F35 EODAS), the SH will get this with the upgrade only!

And when will this upgrade be available? Possibly around 2015, if anybody orders and funds it, because so far it was only proposed from Boeing, but neither USN, nor the only export customer Australia has ordered, or cleared it. Rafale on the other side, will have AESA radar, a more cost-effective engine and DDM NG by 2012, when the first F3+ for the French forces will be delivered, so Rafale will be available with full techs way earlier than the SH! ...

 

[sancho]

... Part 2

Next point is BVR capability,true the SH has the longer range AESA radar and AIM 120, but latest fighters offers more than than radar and missile range only. Fighters like EF, or Rafale are designed with a very low RCS from the start, that's why they have big ammounts of composite, or RAM materials, ducted air intakes, scattered airframes (Rafale), semi stealth weapon stations (EF). The size difference is a point in this regard too, because it is not a heavy class fighter like some people mistakes it for. It is just in the size of an F16 as you can see on the following pics (check also post #2995 on page 200):

http://avionique.free.fr/IMG/jpg/rafale_f18.jpg

http://psk.blog.24heures.ch/media/00/02/2147014045.jpg


But just as Jha recently said too, the active radar of a fighter itself will give away the presents to some extend too and makes it easier to detect, but exactly here the Rafale shows its real advantages in BVR. Unlike the F18SH that is dependent on the active radar, or if available also the IRST on the external fuel tank, the Rafale can use radar, the integrated IRST, or the TV/Termal imager of FSO, or even the SPECTRA EWS itself to detect and track targets. Except of the radar of course, these features are totally passive and you can see these advantages even now in the older Rafale versions:

Excerpt of the Rafale International from 2006

...One of the more challenging aspects of Rafale operations is how to fully exploit its capabilities, and especially its range of passive sensors. Pilots, for example, can use its TV/thermal imaging observation system (dubbed Optronique Secteur Frontal, and similar in principle to infrared scan and track) to visually identify other aircraft at ranges of more than 50 kilometres (approx. 30 nautical miles), and transmit this and other tactical data to other aircraft using their MIDS datalink.

Another unique capability, according to Col. François Moussez, the French Air force’s Rafale program officer is that it can fire missiles at targets detected and designated by its integrated Spectra countermeasures suite, again without any need for active transmissions that can give away its position...

These advantages were also practically demonstrated in exercises like the ATLC in UAE, where Rafale gets several kills against the EF in BVR and dogfights. The Rafale also won engagements against USN fighters in BVR and impressed in the technical evaluation in Brazil, with a very low RCS as you can see in the following reports:

French Pilot about ATLC

During an ATLC engagement, 2 Rafale engaged, using their whole system but simulating a weapon that requires taking more risk than normal, 4 Eurofighter. The 2 Rafale killed the 4 Typhoon which used all their normal capacities, without loss.
The rules of engagement were "beyond visual range".

In BVR air combat (beyond visual range, ie at ranges of several dozens of kilometers), the Rafale system provides synthetic information coming from multiple sensors. This information is therefore more accurate. We can do without 1 or 2 sensors during a whole combat while remaining extremely dangerous for the enemy. This gives us access to new tactics of particular interest.

RING - Capitaine Romain, pilote de Rafale en Afghanistan

Brazilian news report

The divergence of information led to the FAB mark this item Gripen in yellow attention. The F-18 Blue won this variable, but reddened under "radar-signature ', which means tracking by enemy radar. The Rafale, according to official figures, is more "invisible" among competitors (blue = good, yellow = average, red = bad).

In a recent simulated exercise with the US Navy, the French jets "downed" six F-18 and lost only two aircrafts.The American pilots said they could only see the Rafale on the radar when it was too late to react.

ISTOÉ Independente - Economia & Negócios


As you can see, although the EF and the SH had superior radars, as well as more missile range, the Rafale (even outnumbered) was able to win these combats. The Rafale F3+ that is offered in MMRCA will even have more detection features and also the more capable BVR missiles, so it will be even better than in these exercises, especially compared to the SH.

Now lets compare the features mentioned above against a possible opponents of IAF, PAFs new F16 B52:

F18SH vs F16 B52

- in BVR the SH has longer range radar, but bigger RCS and the same AIM 120
- in WVR the SH is less maneuverable and has the same JHMCS + AIM 9 combo like PAF has


Rafale F3+ vs F16 B52

- in BVR it has longer range radar, a lower RCS, longer range missile and long range passive detection capabilities
- in WVR it is more maneuverable, but has no HMS so far (see "Features that requires further fundings" below)

Against new J10Bs and J11Bs the differences could be even more important, because they will have the numerical superiority.


Strike capabilities

The SH is a proven stike fighter and points with more variety and cost-effective weapons, as well as a good EWS.
The Rafale points with more payload, range, beeing less detectable and proved excellent in this role in combination with the AASM (or Hammer as its new name is) and SPECTRA EWS. During Red Flag it fulfilled all strike missions without beeing killed from ground targets a single time, in ATLC 2 Rafales impressed with shooting down:

10 incoming hostile fighters while dropping six AASM on 6 different land targets 40 km far, everything without leaving their CAP racetrack (it is rumored that Rafale proved this during the trials in India too!).

Even I say that the Rafale is close second here only, manly because less variety of weapons, but for possible long range strikes against targets in China, I would prefer Rafale with Scalp.

The SH has a dedicated electronic attack version (Growler), but it is doubtful that IAF will get these, especially not without signing CISOMA, or similar contracts. On the other hand the Rafale has a dedicated nuclear strike version, which is an interesting point, because recent reports claims that the Strategic Forces Command is looking to procure 40 fighters for two dedicated strategic strike squadrons:

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/7004/unrafaleaustandardf3emp.jpg

Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: PTI: India's Joint Nuclear Command Wants 40 Nuclear Strike Jets


Other version and capabilities

Both are available as carrier fighters, can be used for inflight refueling and in recon roles:

http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/images/f_18_tanker.jpg

http://www.l-3com.com/CS-East/images/starnimitz.jpg

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/1504/ravito.jpg

http://defense-update.com/images_large3/recong_aeros_rafale.jpg


Features that requires further fundings

Boeing propsed the new upgrade, but so far it is not know who will fund it, USN is looking for a more cost-effective engine, but not for higher thrust and that's why the EPE engine is offered for foreign customers mainly. Till USN, or another operator clears the upgrade, it will remain uncertain.

Dassault has developed and tested CFTs for the Rafale, but French gov didn't fund it and waiting for an export customer too, same goes for a higher thrust M88-3 engine, or the Kaveri-Snecma integration. They also tested the some HMDs (including Topsight prototypes) but never integrated one,


Costs, orders and upgrade potential

Going by Brazilian reports, F18 SH block 2 costs $55 million flyaway, the Rafale F3+ $78 million, with more than 400 F18SHs on order and around 180 Rafales. Upgrade potential good for both, because USN and French forces will use them for a long time, although the Rafale is on a higher tech level now, because it is a new developed fighter, but the upgrade costs should be cheaper for the SH.


The offers

F18SH offers possible commonality to LCA MK2 with GE 414 engine, outsourcing parts of the production to India, political advantages and most likely higher offsets.

Rafale offers common weapons and already placed service and supply chains with Mirage 2000s, the integration of Kaveri - Snecma engine, full ToT of the AESA radar + source codes, no restrictions, integration of Indian weapons, to go beyond buyer seller relationship (although it's not clear what this exactly means). Early delivery of 40 Rafales if we want and France is a sanction prove, reliable partner.


So lets sum it up!

Rafale wins at A2A performance and is close second in A2G, is on a higher tech level, offers dedicated versions for the nuclear as well as carrier role and offers the clearly better deal with customisation, more independence and commonality to existing IAF fleet.
The F18SH is a proven and cost-effective fighter, with good political advantages, but is also a re-design of an older fighter and will be really comparable with the Block 3 upgrade only. The spares, weapons and maintenance must be build up completelly new and the pilot training should be more difficult to.

All in all the Rafale offers clearly more advantages if we are ready to pay for it, offers a good performance in all roles and exactly between LCA and Rafale (in weight, size and performance) be it for IAF, or IN. If our main aim is political advantages, as well as a cost-effective strike fighter and the restrictions are not a problem, the SH will server good too.

 

[Just Yash]

to Sancho...

great effort my friend but.....

in this compitition we required

1) Great Air to ground fighter.

and

2) Good Air to air fighter( As we already have Su-30mki and in near future PAKFA)

So.. i think F-18 Fits very well.

Feel free to disagree.

 

[luckyyy]

to Sancho...

great effort my friend but.....

in this compitition we required

1) Great Air to ground fighter.

and

2) Good Air to air fighter( As we already have Su-30mki and in near future PAKFA)

So.. i think F-18 Fits very well.

Feel free to disagree.

neither Air to ground nor Air to air fighter , mmrca is all about getting a aircraft best equipped to counter incoming hostle cruse missiles..

and yes ..F-18 Fits very well.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/75339-mmrca-deal-focus-air-defence.html

 

[kingdurgaking]

@Sancho... You have any information on what is offered to MMRCA in terms of F18? If requirement is 9g , T/W to have 1:1 and IRST etc etc then Boeing cannot give a product which will be not satisfying these requirement right? Although i am not supporting Boeing here... This is just a straight question.... If that is the requirement then Boeing has to upgrade and provide the same to IAF without any extra cost...

 

[kingdurgaking]

to Sancho...

great effort my friend but.....

in this compitition we required

1) Great Air to ground fighter.

and

2) Good Air to air fighter( As we already have Su-30mki and in near future PAKFA)

So.. i think F-18 Fits very well.

Feel free to disagree.

I am really sorry here... I cant agree with anyones comment on what is required by IAF.. so far IAF hasnt rejected any Fighters and has given the decision in to the hands of babus... Which means IAF is not looking for a top notch fighter but a gap filling one... A good A2A and good A2G... They dont have any doctrines on MMRCA(which is the real problem of IAF in giving the choice from there end).. doctrines will be created only if they know which is wining.. As far as i know.. IAF counts on 3 aircrafts in the coming decade
1)MKI
2)Tejas/MMRCA
3)FGFA/AMCA

MMRCA will be used to tap political deals and Latest Technology requirements at the max...

Feel free to disagree...

If A2G with good A2A is the requirement ... IAF choice will be Mirage only.. Right now all these lower end responsibilities of Mirages are transferred into the hands of Tejas-2.. while the higher end will be given to the current Beast and FGFA..

So logical choice cost effective and gap filling will go to Griphen.. But political decision will push any one mostly F-18

 

[kish]

to Sancho...

great effort my friend but.....

in this compitition we required

1) Great Air to ground fighter.

and

2) Good Air to air fighter( As we already have Su-30mki and in near future PAKFA)

So.. i think F-18 Fits very well.

Feel free to disagree.

yash
it's MMRCA - MEDIUM MULTI ROLE COMBAT AIRCRAFT
and sancho alredy explain very well that rafale is very battter in A2A from SH and much better in A2G than EF
all these three ac are very impressive but rafale is truly mult role fighter as per now,,
who know d future ,, but right now rafale sounds good for IAF but we have to pay lil more money
but again it will save our money as we are already operating french fighter from more than 2 decade which SH and EF do not provide

 

[jha]

yash
it's MMRCA - MEDIUM MULTI ROLE COMBAT AIRCRAFT
and sancho alredy explain very well that rafale is very battter in A2A from SH and much better in A2G than EF
all these three ac are very impressive but rafale is truly mult role fighter as per now,,
who know d future ,, but right now rafale sounds good for IAF but we have to pay lil more money
but again it will save our money as we are already operating french fighter from more than 2 decade which SH and EF do not provide

Only problem for people with French fries is that they demand hefty sum for upgrades...
(However one inside gossip is that we are upgrading Mirages to make it much more capable than what is known to public..)..

I just want to see Su-30 firing METEOR whichever be the MRCA ..

 

[MAFIAN GOD]

WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK?----WE ARE UPGRADING MIRAGE-2000.
IS IT A +VE OR -VE SIGN FOR RAFALE?