Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sancho]

I don't think MiG-21 and MiG-27 crashes would lead the MiG-35 being disqualified. The MiG-21 and MiG-27 have frequent crashes simply because they are too old - so things tend to get glitchy. Moreover, some of the MiG crashes were due to pilot error. But the IAF has had a good experience with MiG-29s (maintainance aside).

Not to disqualify them, but it will have an impact in the decision for sure. Delivery of spares, problems with Mig 27 engines are important issues and the experience with Sukhoi in terms of quality and aftersale supports are clearly better. Of course it's not all Russian faults, but Mig as a company will have to prove themself as reliable again.
However, it is just one of several problems that the Mig 35 has to face.

 

[luckyyy]

MIG-35 has a chance to win only at the Price Negotiating Committee .

but will it reach to that stage , that a question !

 

[Dash]

I agree completely. But i don't this would be a deciding factor regarding MiG-35 selection in MRCA.

This would be Soaringphnx.

Experience with Russia staring from upgrades for Migs to INS Vikramaditya, Nerpa sub....and everything, has made them loose their credibility over a period of time.

This is will surely in the back of everybody's mind. Not a very big factor when IAF looks at Mig 35 but still a factor for its rejection.

 

[dbc]

Yes, but that part of the development is not funded and USN won't, they just wait for an international customer to do so. USN aims for less costs and that's why they focus on the EDE only.
If the news about LCA MK2 engine is correct, it will be very interesting which version of the GE 414 will be chosen. If they pay for EPE, I'm sure F18SH deal is also sealed.

Another win for the politics!

Politics? The DRDO choice was a no brainer, by virtue of a later design the Rolls Royce offering may be more technically advanced but the Euro engine is longer, requiring an expensive and risky redesign of either the LCA or the engine itself - making an engine shorter is not a trivial task. The F-414 on the other hand is dimensionally identical to the GE 404 currently powering the LCA apart from a redesign of the air intake the F-414 does not impose any other change.

As I said before the difference between the EDE and EPE is the addition of one fan to increase air flow - I do not expect GE to require customer R&E funding for this - GE/Boeing is not Snecma/Dassault a company like Boeing makes nearly twice the MMRCA contract value in revenue each quarter.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Originally Posted by Death.By.Chocolate
"Politics? The DRDO choice was a no brainer, by virtue of a later design the Rolls Royce offering may be more technically advanced but the Euro engine is longer, requiring an expensive and risky redesign of either the LCA or the engine itself - making an engine shorter is not a trivial task. The F-414 on the other hand is dimensionally identical to the GE 404 currently powering the LCA apart from a redesign of the air intake the F-414 does not impose any other change."

Hi DBC,
Thanks for injecting a technical perspective into the debate.

 

[sancho]

As I said before the difference between the EDE and EPE is the addition of one fan to increase air flow - I do not expect GE to require customer R&E funding for this - GE/Boeing is not Snecma/Dassault a company like Boeing makes nearly twice the MMRCA contract value in revenue each quarter.

From the GE site:

In anticipation of evolving and more demanding requirements, the F414 family is continuing on an ambitious growth path to increase thrust, improve durability and satisfy environmental considerations. The Enhanced Durability Engine (EDE) is focused primarily on durability improvement and life-cycle cost savings for the USN customer, while the Enhanced Performance Engine (EPE) - with increased thrust - is targeted for potential international customers.

The EDE incorporates an advanced high pressure turbine (HPT) and six-stage high pressure compressor (HPC) that offers a 2-3X hot-section durability gain and reduced fuel consumption, which could equate to a $1-2 billion savings over the life of the USN fleet. The EPE includes EDE improvements plus a new fan for greater airflow, resulting in a 20 percent thrust improvement and greater operational flexibility.

Demonstrator versions of both the EDE and EPE have been successfully run, laying the groundwork for a USN-funded specific fuel consumption (SFC) reduction effort. This initiative, geared toward developing near- and long-term energy strategies, is aimed at showing a 3 percent SFC gain compared with the current F414-GE-400 configuration. An F414-powered Super Hornet operating on a biofuel blend successfully flew in April 2010 -- the first tactical USN aircraft to use a biofuel blend.

GE Aviation: Powerful Past, Promising Future Mark 1000th F414 Engine Milestone

As you can see, USN funded only the EDE part while further R&D of the EPE is aimed on export customers. There is also an aviation week article on this.
It doesn't matter if GE is bigger than Snecma, because both companies won't waste money for an engine that has no orders. USN is happy with the EDE, French forces are happy with M88-2 (-4E).

 

[gogbot]

Well it would not have been my pick but the SuperHornet more than has this in the bag now.
Not my preference , but it could have been worse.

Prez Obama will come in November the Deal will be signed.

I would only hope that the SuperHornet will be delivered with most of the advanced features it promises.
Our refusal to sign US tech control agreements has left us a huge buyer disadvantage point.

Boeing for its part has done well with the plane, it's marketing and Future road map. But its still a US plane.

 

[kingdurgaking]

Are we allowed to change the weapons on F18?? like integrating Astra, R77, Pythons etc.. does US allow this??

 

[Dash]

According to my guess we are getting the EDE version of engine by 2014 which gives 15% more thurst already and better fuel consuption.

---------- Post added at 09:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 PM ----------

Well it would not have been my pick but the SuperHornet more than has this in the bag now.
Not my preference , but it could have been worse.

Prez Obama will come in November the Deal will be signed.

I would only hope that the SuperHornet will be delivered with most of the advanced features it promises.
Our refusal to sign US tech control agreements has left us a huge buyer disadvantage point.

Boeing for its part has done well with the plane, it's marketing and Future road map. But its still a US plane.

That what I was telling someone a while ago. the deal came through just after Antony arrived from US.

 

[sancho]

According to my guess we are getting the EDE version of engine by 2014 which gives 15% more thurst already and better fuel consuption.

Where did u get that from?

 

[Dash]

Where did u get that from?

Expected

Wikipedia -

General Electric F414 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Current development
The F414 continues to be improved, both through internal GE efforts and federally funded development programs. By 2006, GE tested an Enhanced Durability Engine (EDE) with an advanced core. The EDE engine provided a 15% thrust increase or longer life without the thrust increase. It has a six-stage high-pressure compressor (down from 7 stages in the standard F414) and an advanced high-pressure turbine.[6] The new compressor should be about 3% more efficient. The new high pressure turbine uses new materials and a new way of delivering cooling air to the blades. These changes should increase the turbine temperature capability by about 150 °F (66 °C).[7] The EDE is designed to have better foreign object damage resistance, and a reduced fuel burn rate.[8][9]

PLus the link you have provided to DBC just a while ago says that the GeF414G version that Gripen demonstrator will use has an increased 20% thurst. Iam sure that is based on Ge414 EDE version as EPE version is not yet started.

Another source from the article Benny has mentioned below.

The higher power of the F414 EDE is being offered by GE as a way of either increasing thrust by up to 20% over the current F414-400 engine, or offering "up to three times the life of today's hot section at current thrust levels". Partly funded by the US Navy, the ongoing demonstrator programme also includes research into high-cycle-fatigue reduction technologies, and foreign object damage-tolerant fan and compressor aerofoil designs.

so it does look like EDE is on offer with either higher thurst or better fuel maintainanace.

 

[SpArK]

GE completes F414 demonstration-19/12/2006-Los Angeles-Flight International

It did fly with gripen Demonstrator, right??

 

[dbc]

From the GE site:



GE Aviation: Powerful Past, Promising Future Mark 1000th F414 Engine Milestone

As you can see, USN funded only the EDE part while further R&D of the EPE is aimed on export customers. There is also an aviation week article on this.
It doesn't matter if GE is bigger than Snecma, because both companies won't waste money for an engine that has no orders. USN is happy with the EDE, French forces are happy with M88-2 (-4E).

The EDE incorporates an advanced high pressure turbine (HPT) and six-stage high pressure compressor (HPC) that offers a 2-3X hot-section durability gain and reduced fuel consumption, which could equate to a $1-2 billion savings over the life of the USN fleet. The EPE includes EDE improvements plus a new fan for greater airflow, resulting in a 20 percent thrust improvement and greater operational flexibility.

how much do you expect a fan to cost? USN isn't interested in a higher thrust engine, since it reduces engine life and increases fuel consumption.

 

[dbc]

Expected

Wikipedia -

General Electric F414 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



PLus the link you have provided to DBC just a while ago says that the GeF414G version that Gripen demonstrator will use has an increased 20% thurst. Iam sure that is based on Ge414 EDE version as EPE version is not yet started.

No, EDE and EPE are the same, customers have a choice of either increasing engine life by a factor of 3 OR increasing thrust by 20% over F-414-400. IAF has to make a decision on either the EDE or EPE version, in other words EDE and F-414-400 have the same maximum thrust while EPE and F-414-400 have the same engine life.

 

[sancho]

Expected

Wikipedia -

General Electric F414 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



PLus the link you have provided to DBC just a while ago says that the GeF414G version that Gripen demonstrator will use has an increased 20% thurst. Iam sure that is based on Ge414 EDE version as EPE version is not yet started.

Another source from the article Benny has mentioned below.




so it does look like EDE is on offer with either higher thurst or better fuel maintainanace.

Interesting but you missunderstood some things. It says more thrust, or longer engine life and less fuel consumption, not both. Also the 20% increase for the G that the Gripen NG use is meant in comparison to the older GE 404 / RM 12 in the normal Gripen.

The F414G, a single-engine variant of the F414-GE-400, delivers 20 percent more thrust for the Gripen Next Generation aircraft than previous powerplants.