Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sudhir007]

Well it has been a few weeks after Times Now reported that IAF wants either the the Rafale or the Typhoon and since than neither the IAF or the Ministry of Defense has said anything about it. Well we all have been expecting something to come out after IAF submitted it technical evaluation report a month back but it seems we will not be informed by them.
Another surprising thing is that the Indian media is not issuing unanimous reports, Aviation week and other sources have reported that Rafale and Typhoon are "not" in the game where as Shiv Aroor is saying that the MiG-35 was probably never in the competition. Nothing seems to make sense as all these might be just rumors and after all the unprofessional Indian media lives and thrives on rumors and sensationalism. In such times the best thing to do is to read what a foreign media says. Janes, a respected military information source reported that India has made no decision and so far no fighter have been down selected. Almost all the suppliers have denied that their fighters have been kicked out of the competition except the United Aircraft Corporation of Russia with its MiG-35. It seems like everyone has written off the MiG-35 off the competition and its not just the Indian media but also the Russian media. I do tend to believe this because IAF and the MoD clearly don't want anything Russian because of many reasons which I would not like to mention now.
All theses rumors could could be sponsored ones, for instance it could be the IAF which would have written the Times Now article as they know that Rafale and Typhoon are the best but really expensive and Finance ministry could not allow it like the Tanker deal. The rumors could also be sponsored by manufactures which is not quite uncommon. We won't know the any of that and going further into it would creating another rumor.
However thing which are confirmed are that the Flight evaluation tests were meant to study some "643 test points" which were send to the MoD in tabular format. The Transfer of technology, maintenance and diagnostics are other critical factors along with life cycle cost.Also the IAF clearly wants new technology with the fighters. The final selection announcement will be made in 10-11 months and the deal will be for 126 fighter with a option of 74 more.

Angle of Attack: The MMRCA Mess !

 

[British_Bangladeshi]

Go for the Eurofighter because its British, don't go for the Rafale because its french

 

[kish]

I do tend to believe this because IAF and the MoD clearly don't want anything Russian because of many reasons which I would not like to mention now.

Then why is new order of 42 sukhoi placed and also devoloping pak fa/fgfa with russia
So please metion ur many reasons.
thanks in advance

 

[Bhairava]

Then why is new order of 42 sukhoi placed and also devoloping pak fa/fgfa with russia
So please metion ur many reasons.
thanks in advance

He was implying that MoD doesnt want anything Russian in the context of the MMRCA tender.or for that matter he was simply referring to the Fulcrum.

It was not on an overall basis and that is exactly why we are ordering extra Flankers - a soft way of saying "sorry we dont want the Fulcrums".

 

[kish]

He was implying that MoD doesnt want anything Russian in the context of the MMRCA tender.or for that matter he was simply referring to the Fulcrum.

It was not on an overall basis and that is exactly why we are ordering extra Flankers - a soft way of saying "sorry we dont want the Fulcrums".

i thought he was talking about whole Russian products. i still dont know much about capabilities of mig 35 so cant comment on this.
anyway thanks

 

[jha]

India Rules Out Integration of BrahMos Missile on MMRCA

The high-profile “medium multi-role combat aircraft” (MMRCA), 126 of which are being purchased by the IAF at a mind-boggling price tag of Rs 42,000 crore, has been ruled out for integration with the supersonic BrahMos missile. BrahMos Aerospace, the Indo-Russian joint venture, has successfully developed the low-altitude supersonic BrahMos cruise missile that is quicker than any other missile in the world.
Having a speed of 2.8 mach, BrahMos, with a range of 290 km, is four times faster than American Tomahawk cruise missile, widely used by the USA during its offensive against Iraq. BrahMos Aerospace is now working to develop a hypersonic missile having a speed of over 6 mach.

Addressing a press conference on the sidelines of the Space Expo here today, A Sivathanu Pillai, CEO and MD of BrahMos Aerospace, said the new hypersonic missile would be ready in another five years. The warhead of the hypersonic missile would be relatively smaller, he said and added that because of its speed, the hypersonic missile would hit the target with a devastating impact nevertheless.
Pillai said following the induction of the supersonic BrahMos in the Army and the Navy, they were now working to develop a supersonic missile for the IAF. He said the missile would be integrated with the Russian Sukhoi 30 aircraft. Pillai said $50 million, split between the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and its Russian partner on a 50.5 and 49.5 per cent basis, had been allocated for developing the air force version of the missile to be used for air-to-ground attacks Modifications in the Sukhoi aircraft for integrating the missile would be carried out by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) at its facility at Nashik, Pillai said.

Blueprint for the changes would be drawn up by the Sukhoi design bureau in Russia, Pillai said. The flight-test of the air force variant of the missile would take place in 2012, he added. On the issue of integrating the missile with the MMRCA, which the IAF was in the process of acquiring, Pillai said medium aircraft were not being considered for firing the missile. “Sukhoi, being a big aircraft, is ideal for BrahMos,” he said.

 

[marcos98]

MMRCA contenders yet to be shortlisted

BY:Business News, Finance News, Stock Market, World Business, Financial Markets News Online

India is yet to shortlist contenders for supplying 126 fighter jets under the $11-billion medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal. ‘‘At the moment, the Offsets Technical Committee—headed by the special secretary of defence production and including members from the defence research and development organisation (DRDO), Indian Air Force (IAF) and the ministry of defence (MoD)—is evaluating technical offsets proposals and sending their observations to all the six contenders,” officials privy to the process told FE.

The MoD can decide on shortlisting the contenders only when the technical offsets evaluation committee report and the field trial report are complete,” they said.

Based on the observations, vendors would submit fresh and revised offsets proposals, which will take a minimum of two months. After that, the contenders will be evaluated again and the recommendations will be sent for approval to the MoD, sources said, adding, “after it goes to the Cabinet Committee on Security for a final decision, government-to-government negotiations will be held in order to get additional benefits for the country.”

Lockheed Martin F-16IN, Boeing F/A-18, Dassault Rafale, EADS Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab Gripen and Russian MiG-35 are contending for the 126-aircraft programme. The Indian Air Force will invite different contenders to discuss flight evaluation reports once the field trials are complete.

The contenders, along with their partners, have also been invited by the MoD to present their offsets proposals. So far, the IAF has had a meeting with Lockheed Martin and Dassault of Rafale.

According to sources, “Vendors complying with the rules, the defence procurement policy and technical offsets will ultimately be considered. Also, the lowest bidder and the designated L1 will be selected as the MMRCA.” For the first time, IAF will consider the ‘life-cycle costs’, rather than just the lowest bid.

 

[marcos98]

Germans are surprised by the operational cost of the Eurofighter

Google Translate
The operational costs of the Eurofighter are significantly larger than expected, with the price of € 73,992 per flight hour, almost double the initially anticipated.

The Tornado, more expensive aircraft of the Luftwaffe, it costs € 43,000 per hour. Much more expensive than previously thought, are also flights of the Air Force, made for German industry. In February 2009, three Eurofighter participated in Aero India 2009 show, because India plans to buy 126 new combat aircraft and Eurofighter is in the competition.

The Luftwaffe requested € 180,000 and the remainder was paid by the taxpayer. The trip was part of the normal flight program, so the Air Force justified the cost.

This year, the Eurofighter is being tested in India. A aeronave é da Luftwaffe novamente. The aircraft of the Luftwaffe again.

AIR POWER'S NOTE: The German journalist divided the total of € 7.1 million per 96 hours, which gives € 73,992 / h. But he forgot to divide the value by three planes, which would give € 24,664 euros / h.Still, it's a high cost for a game, maybe the total includes other costs of production in India.

 

[sudhir007]

Global giants line up for $10-bn IAF aircraft deal

Top leaders of the world are lining up for a $10-billion Indian order for 126 fighter aircraft. Companies from the US, France and Russia have put in their bids for the 126 MMRCA for the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the visiting leadership are expected to lobby with their counter parts. The US President Barack Obama’s visit in November will be followed by the French President Nicolas Sarkozy’s in early December and later by the Russian President Dmitry Medvedev.

Sources told FE on conditions of anonymity that, ‘‘the six contenders have yet to be shortlisted. The defence ministry can decide on shortlisting the contenders only once it have the technical offsets evaluation committee report along with the Field Trial report.’’

‘‘After it goes to the Cabinet Committee on Security for a final decision, there will government-to-government negotiations in an effort to get additional benefits for the country,’’ the source added.

American companies, Lockheed Martin F-16IN, Boeing F/A-18, French Dassault Rafale, EADS Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab Gripen and Russian MiG-35 are in the running for the 126-aircraft programme.

So far the IAF has had a meeting with Lockheed Martin and the French ‘Dassault’ of Rafale.

According to sources, ‘‘Vendors who are compliant rule wise, Defence Procurement Policy and Technical offsets will ultimately be opened for consideration. Also, the lowest bidder, designated L1, will be selected as the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA).”

The whole procedure is expected to take a couple of months and by then Obama will be here. ‘‘While the MMRCA deal will be topping the agenda. Several other pending deals including the medium weight helicopters where the RFP is likely to be scrapped will be talked about. It is expected that India could ask the US for encryption technology too.’’

French President Nicholas Sarkozy and his wife Carla Bruni will arrive on a two-day visit on December 6-7. ‘‘Definitely MMRCA deal come up for discussions. Eventually the selection of the MMRCA will be political decision,’’ said officials.

Apart from inking pact for the supply of two reactors, India and France will also sign a $2.2-billion deal to upgrade its Mirage fleet. The upgrade deal, which had been hanging fire for the past two years due to differences over the price, is now ready to be inked, sources in the defence ministry said.

France is also keen that India approve the Maitri air-to-surface Low-Level Quick Reaction Missile (LLQRM), which has been jointly developed by the.

DRDO and France’s MBDA. While the missile’s final design has been locked up, the government is still to give a go ahead for the joint project.

Though India and Russia are implementing several joint military programmes, the most important are the production and upgrading of the BrahMos missile and the construction of fifth-generation supersonic fighters, among other things.

The MiG-35 is one of the contenders for the MMRCA is a MiG-29. The presence of MiG-29 infrastructure and a new plant for licence-building RD-33 Series III engines in India makes compliance with industrial offset requirements easier. The Russians are keen to sell the MiG-35 to the IAF, and could possibly on the agenda of talks.

---------- Post added at 10:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:44 AM ----------

Global giants line up for $10-bn IAF aircraft deal

Top leaders of the world are lining up for a $10-billion Indian order for 126 fighter aircraft. Companies from the US, France and Russia have put in their bids for the 126 MMRCA for the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the visiting leadership are expected to lobby with their counter parts. The US President Barack Obama’s visit in November will be followed by the French President Nicolas Sarkozy’s in early December and later by the Russian President Dmitry Medvedev.

Sources told FE on conditions of anonymity that, ‘‘the six contenders have yet to be shortlisted. The defence ministry can decide on shortlisting the contenders only once it have the technical offsets evaluation committee report along with the Field Trial report.’’

‘‘After it goes to the Cabinet Committee on Security for a final decision, there will government-to-government negotiations in an effort to get additional benefits for the country,’’ the source added.

American companies, Lockheed Martin F-16IN, Boeing F/A-18, French Dassault Rafale, EADS Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab Gripen and Russian MiG-35 are in the running for the 126-aircraft programme.

So far the IAF has had a meeting with Lockheed Martin and the French ‘Dassault’ of Rafale.

According to sources, ‘‘Vendors who are compliant rule wise, Defence Procurement Policy and Technical offsets will ultimately be opened for consideration. Also, the lowest bidder, designated L1, will be selected as the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA).”

The whole procedure is expected to take a couple of months and by then Obama will be here. ‘‘While the MMRCA deal will be topping the agenda. Several other pending deals including the medium weight helicopters where the RFP is likely to be scrapped will be talked about. It is expected that India could ask the US for encryption technology too.’’

French President Nicholas Sarkozy and his wife Carla Bruni will arrive on a two-day visit on December 6-7. ‘‘Definitely MMRCA deal come up for discussions. Eventually the selection of the MMRCA will be political decision,’’ said officials.

Apart from inking pact for the supply of two reactors, India and France will also sign a $2.2-billion deal to upgrade its Mirage fleet. The upgrade deal, which had been hanging fire for the past two years due to differences over the price, is now ready to be inked, sources in the defence ministry said.

France is also keen that India approve the Maitri air-to-surface Low-Level Quick Reaction Missile (LLQRM), which has been jointly developed by the.

DRDO and France’s MBDA. While the missile’s final design has been locked up, the government is still to give a go ahead for the joint project.

Though India and Russia are implementing several joint military programmes, the most important are the production and upgrading of the BrahMos missile and the construction of fifth-generation supersonic fighters, among other things.

The MiG-35 is one of the contenders for the MMRCA is a MiG-29. The presence of MiG-29 infrastructure and a new plant for licence-building RD-33 Series III engines in India makes compliance with industrial offset requirements easier. The Russians are keen to sell the MiG-35 to the IAF, and could possibly on the agenda of talks.

 

[Dash]

The operational costs of the Eurofighter are significantly larger than expected, with the price of € 73,992 per flight hour, almost double the initially anticipated.

What is this now??, this cant be soooooooo high!!.

 

[SpArK]

MMRCA BUZZ: What Makes The IAF Nervous About The Americans

An IAF officer I spoke to six months ago to get a sense of how the Indian Air Force perceives partnerships with the United States as a potential outcome of the MMRCA competition, used a simple but strange metaphor to illustrate his opinion. Imagine India on the one side of a deep and wide ravine. Across this wide ravine is a gleaming suspension bridge. It looks great and appears superbly stable -- but in rough weather, there's every chance it will shake. In the past, when India has tried to cross this bridge, it has been forced to quickly retrace its steps midway when the bridge was buffeted by unkind winds that threatened to cast India into the ravine. So now, here's the question. Does the weather ever really change that much?

Two overwhelming notions, especially within the Indian media, over the last four years concerning the MMRCA competition, are, one, the government will choose an aircraft type based on political considerations. And two, since it does so, the Americans will win, since they offer more, on the face it, politically than any other nation. But these fall, indubitably, in the realm of government, and not the Indian Air Force. But while the IAF says it works only with determinables and not the intangibles, it obviously has concerns, many of which dwell in the realm of the political. Some of these concerns come up frequently and are well known. Others are less known and more specific. The idea of this post is to simply provide a consolidated view of perceptions of operating American aircraft.

Let's first get one thing out of the way. There are probably very few in the IAF who believe that the Americans can be beaten on potential technology. Notwithstanding arguments that the two American platforms on offer to India are essentially modernised legacy fighters with little or no modernisation latitude, there is a keen sense that the Americans control what is undeniably among the best aerospace technology in the world. The quality and temperament of sharing is a different matter, and I'll touch upon that later.

The chief cause of nervousness in the IAF regarding any potential hardware from the US is, quite clearly, the potential attendant erosion of autonomy. Nothing in the last six years has changed that perception. The Indian government is rightly skeptical about the CISMOA and BECA agreements, but the end-user verification pact (EUVA) that the two countries finally entered into (even with India's counterdraft accepted) is not something that went down well with the IAF. Crucially, there is a general sense that autonomy will potentially be affected not just as far as operations are concerned, but in other areas as well -- logistics, planning, profiling etc. Here's something even more interesting: One officer suggests that the use of the MMRCA aircraft as strategic deterrent platforms (i.e. nuclear delivery aircraft) is a grey area that could prove almost certainly problematic when dealing with the Americans, or at least more problematic with the Americans than the others. It so happens that the only country that has never questioned India's strategic positioning of its aircraft, are the French (though they have different, equally serious problems). "India may not be Turkey, Egypt or Pakistan, but if you look at any country that operates American aircraft, there has been a period -- sometimes prolonged -- of trouble," says the officer quoted above, adding, "This is something a country like Pakistan can afford, since it has already pledged its strategic future to one nation. But can we?" The fear that the autonomy overhang could affect operational planning is a very real one. A section of the IAF believes South Block is way too hardnosed to buckle to a bad deal -- there's another that believes reluctance to sign the EUVA was merely diplomatic grandstanding that conveniently harnessed the IAF's apprehensions -- and, therefore, that there is every chance the IAF will be saddled with jets it cannot fully use.

A related aspect is operational flexibility. During Kargil, the IAF reportedly did things to some of its Mirage-2000s that would have amounted to serious violations of the Indian government's contract with Dassault. It is understood, but not confirmed, that the French government was quietly engaged after the war and the two sides were able to agree that it was not a problem, and that no penalties would be slapped on the Indian government for what were, in reality, war exegencies, even though it was clear that there had been serious breaches of the technology agreement. The use of US aircraft would be far more potentially restricted and regulated by complex rules, legalese and guidelines. It's not that the IAF isn't used to this sort of thing. It's just that there's likely to be exponentially more to pore over before scrambling an American jet from an Indian base. Here's another point: Buying and operating US aircraft, some in the IAF believe, would "completely subvert" one of the most deeply entrenched "ways" of doing things in India -- using a generous dose of improvisation. "Will the American be fanatically remote controlling with India as well? It is hard to say," says the officer quoted above.

Next, of course, trust. Reliability and trust are major issues, and this has little do with any sort of hangover of the 1998 post-Shakti sanctions. An influential quarter in the IAF feels the US has not qualitatively demonstrated that it is a sincere partner, especially when it comes to India's indigenous programmes. In 1998, US sanctions dealt a death blow, or nearly so, to several Indian weapon and weapon platform programmes, including the country's missile programme, light combat aircraft, NCW technologies and other critical programmes. But little has actually changed. While the US is happy to sell India billions of dollars worth of hardware, it is suspiciously and conspicuously unreliable even now when it comes to indigenous programmes. For instance, the IAF is still wondering why the US government didn't allow Boeing to provide a technological and flight test consultancy to the Tejas programme. Recently, it was revealed that Lockheed-Martin was unable to obtain approvals from the US government to consult for the Naval Tejas programme (both contracts went by default to EADS). The point is, the consultancies were "small-fry contracts that held nothing of advantage to either of the American companies or the government," says a Group Captain. He adds, "Such denials are taken very seriously. What could the possible reason be for the US government to deny two small consultancies? It has not been reported much, so it is forgotten. For the service, it was a jolt. The implications are plain for anyone to deduce." He's right. For all the big-sounding partnership rhetoric that India has gotten used to being bombarded with from Washington, it's the little things that offer a different, decidedly worrying picture for the IAF. Simply put, the perception appears to be this in some quarters -- the Pentagon wants to sell you a lot of souped up Cold War era fighter planes, but doesn't want to tell you how to fine-tune carrier-safe landing gear assemblies. It doesn't want to tell you how to speed up flight trials. It refuses to tell you how to expand the operational envelope of your own in-development fighter platform. The two Tejas consultancy programmes are, incidentally, only two among at least a dozen similar contracts that the US has "won", but failed to act upon as a result of seeming Pentagon/State Department sensitivities. Result: perceptions that the US wants to sell India weapons, and has little interest in any real partnerships that could potentially edge out the need to buy those or similar weapons at a later stage as well.

A dramatic and interesting perception in a certain section of the IAF is that the F-16 Block 60 and F/A-18E/F are excellent fighter platforms, but that it is unlikely that the US will be either a willing or reliable partner as far as ensuring that these aircraft are on the cutting edge throughout their life of 40 years or more. The US government has, on behalf of the plane makers, assured the Indian government -- and will drive it home many more times -- that the future of these two platforms is completely safe. Still, the sense that you won't get the best they have is nowhere more overpowering than it is with the Americans.

Some of these concerns have a greater emphasis than others in ongoing dialogue between the IAF and the MoD, but all figure at various levels without exception. It must be said that there is, at the same time, a powerful section within the IAF -- with compelling arguments of its own on all the concerns listed above -- that the only way the IAF can make its next aerospace leap, is with technology from the United States, and that any other, would be a compromise on such a valuable opportunity to shift away from rusty strategic predilections of the past.


Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence

 

[marcos98]

MMRCA: leaders are eyeing

In the coming months, Obama, Sarkozy and Medvedev will visit India

Companies U.S., France and Russia made their proposals for the MMRCA program, which aims to get 126 fighter jets for medium-sized Indian Air Force. It is now expected that the presidents of these countries in their future visits to India, people lobby for these proposals. The visit of U.S. President, Barack Obama, is scheduled for November, followed by the visit of President of France, Nicolas Sarkozy, in early December and the President of Russia Dmitry Medvedev at the end of that month.

Sources told The Financial Express (FE), under the condition of remaining anonymous, that "the six competitors will still be subjected to a shortlist (short list). The Minister of Defence may decide to reduce the number of competitors after receiving the report of the evaluation committee for offsets (offsets) techniques, together with the report of field tests. Once the Security Committee of Cabinet makes the final decision, there will be negotiations between governments in an effort to achieve additional benefits for India.

Of the companies in dispute , the Indian Air Force has already held meetings with Lockheed Martin, U.S., and France's Dassault. According to sources, the proposals that meet rules, the procurement policy of defense and compensatory techniques are taken into account, and the proposal of lesser value, called L1, is selected as the MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft - fighter medium multitasking).

The whole procedure should take approximately two months, then when Obama visits India. Although the sources of FE, "the MMRCA should be the priority on the agenda, but several other pending agreements should be treated, which includes a medium-sized helicopters, whose RFP (Request for Proposal) may be discarded. Also expected to ask India encryption technology to the U.S.. "

Already Nicolas Sarkozy and his wife Carla Bruni visit India 6-7 December and "definitely the MMRCA contract will be discussed. Eventually the selection MMRCA will be a political decision, "officials said. In addition to signing the pact to supply two reactors, India and France should also sign an agreement of 2.2 billion dollars to modernize the fleet of Indian Air Force Mirage. According to Defense Ministry sources, the agreement of modernization, which was pending in the last two years due to differences with the cost, ready to be signed.

France also awaits approval from India to Maitri, air-surface missile with low altitude and rapid response (Low-Level Quick Reaction Missile - LLQRM), which is being developed in conjunction with the MBDA.

Already on the MiG-35 offered by Russia, the story of EF poses as easily, to meet the requirements of industrial counterparts, the fact that there is already an established infrastructure of the MiG-29 as well as a new plant to manufacture under license , engines RD-33 Series III. The sale of MiG-35 will probably be on the agenda of talks, taking into account also that India and Russia are implementing several joint military programs, among the most important, production and modernization of the missile BrahMos supersonic fighters and the fifth generation.
SOURCE: Financial Express

 

[gowthamraj]

^ interesting guys, so it's a thrill time

 

[SpArK]

F/A-18 Distributed Targeting System has first flight

An F/A-18F Super Hornet equipped with the Distributed Targeting System completed its first one-hour test flight Sept. 1 at Naval Air Station China Lake, Calif.
The system is part of the U.S. Navy’s F/A-18E/F Network Centric Warfare Upgrades program and F/A-18E/F flight plan, a program designed to ensure that the Block II Super Hornet will stay ahead of known and emerging threats through 2025 and beyond.

“This is a major architectural implementation for the flight plan upgrade,” said Capt. Mark Darrah, F/A-18 and EA-18G program manager. “It will be a huge enhancement to the F/A-18 fleet aircraft.”

The DTS itself is a hardware and software system designed to provide precision strike capability against relocatable, targets, such as mobile surface-to-air missile units. The system uses sensor imagery gathered from the radar or infrared signatures emitted by potential targets. It then compares those images to references stored within DTS to determine if the target is a threat.

The system is designed to reduce the time it takes to search, identify, classify, pinpoint and attack a target as well as assess the damage to the target, a process also known as the kill chain. With onboard communications, a single aircraft equipped with DTS can provide multiple target points to other aircraft. Without this capability, each aircraft derives individual coordinates on each target.

“DTS provides real time precision strike capability to the warfighter, where no similar capability exists today,” said Darrah. “This ability to strike mobile threat targets with precision minimizes collateral damage to supporting ground forces in close contact.”

The DTS program, which will be fielded on all Block II F/A-18E/F Super Hornets, began in 2004. Initial operational capability is slated for fall 2012 with operational fielding in 2013.

 

[anathema]

A great airshow by Rafale.