Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[kurup]

^^^^ Beautifull camo .....

 

[sancho]

Crossposting from the MP forum (credits to Olybrius):

HAL and Dassault Aviation confident in partnership

On the occasion of the Paris Air Show, HAL Chairman, Dr RK Tyagi and Dassault Aviation chairman, Eric Trappier and their respective Senior Executives met to review the progress in ongoing projects.

Both Chairmen expressed satisfaction on the work already achieved by the integrated teams and renewed their commitment towards successful completion of the various projects...

HAL and Dassault Aviation confident in partnership | Dassault Aviation

 

[Abingdonboy]

Crossposting from the MP forum (credits to Olybrius):

HAL and Dassault Aviation confident in partnership | Dassault Aviation

Positive news coming out of all sides- IAF ACM, Indian defence minister, French defence minister, French Ambassador Dassualt, HAL etc etc let's just see the signatures now- COME ON!!!!

 

[Abingdonboy]

 

[Abingdonboy]

Something interesting I dug up, some of the criteria set out in the original MMRCA RFP:

1) The M-MRCA on offer has to be a fully functional and mature system, with all its listed capabilities already in operational service and not requiring any further fine-tuning or R & D work.


2) The M-MRCA on offer has to deliver a payload capacity that is much greater than that of the envisaged Tejas Mk2 MRCA, but no more than what the Su-30MKI is already certified to carry.


3) The M-MRCA on offer has to come equipped with an infra-red search-and-track system optimised for air superiority operations, as well as a fully certified active phased-array multi-mode radar (AESA-MMR) capable of waging all-weather and network-centric knowledge-based air-to-air and air-to-surface warfare, and must come armed with standoff precision-guided munitions for both land-attack and maritime strike.


4) The M-MRCA on offer must have sufficient future growth capability to ensure that during its envisaged 40-year service life, it can be subjected to at least two major upgrade programmes aimed at enhancing the aircraft’s operational performance parameters.


5) For ensuring total operational sovereignty over the M-MRCA on offer, the aircraft must be accompanied by a through-life product support package that includes the establishment of all four levels of maintenance within India through the creation of a dedicated IAF base repair depot, plus through private sector/public sector product support joint ventures in which the original equipment manufacturer (OEM) of foreign origin (for the airframe, avionics, instrumentation, engine and accessories) and its Indian counterpart will be the principal business stakeholders, this being in consonance with the MoD’s direct industrial offsets guidelines (amounting to 50% of the total contract value) that are laid down by the MoD’s Defence Procurement Policy.


6) The M-MRCA on offer must be accompanied by the availability and delivery of fully certified training aids that should include the following:

A) Full-flight (or full-motion) simulator (FFS), which recreates sounds, motion, visual scenes, instrument presentations and all other systems in order to create a realistic flight training environment. The pilot will be able to train for landing, takeoff, weapons delivery, night flight, formation flight and cockpit familiarisation in normal, adverse and emergency situations. The handling characteristics of the FFS represent actual aircraft characteristics based on available flight data and input from experienced pilots.
B) Flight training device (FTD), which can be used to off-load some of the training tasks from the FFS. The FTD is a fixed-base trainer that typically does not include a visual system, but uses the same flight management and control systems as a FFS, making it the ideal for instrument familiarisation and other standard flight operations.
C) Cockpit procedures trainer (CPT), which assists pilots in learning the layout of the cockpit, the location of switches, lights, circuit breakers, instruments, and other functions. The CPT increases efficiency in the FFS and the actual aircraft by having the aircrew already familiarised with their surroundings.
D) Part-task trainer (PTT), which is a training device that is designed to train a member of the aircrew or maintenance staff on a particular task associated with the aircraft. PTTs exist for a range of tasks including: avionics systems, systems familiarisation, weapons delivery, aerial refuelling, and a variety of complex tasks specific to a particular aircraft.
E) Integrated procedures trainer (IPT), which can be used for mission rehearsals or to teach and practice any in-flight or on-ground procedures in a crew cockpit environment. It is a high-fidelity, low-cost training solution based on the same software used on the FFS. The IPT uses touch-screen monitors to display the cockpit and captures pilot inputs. The pilots can thus maintain their qualification on certain tasks without having to fly the FFS or the real aircraft. In addition to procedures training, especially for cockpit emergencies, the addition of a visual and tactical environment can give pilots the ability to practice the mission before operational deployment using the mission rehearsal station. This unit can be set-up and dismantled in one or two hours and handled and transported easily without the use of special tools or equipment.
F) Computer-based training tools required for all four levels of maintenance.


7) Lastly, the M-MRCA on offer has to be delivered—through both off-the-shelf purchases as well as through in-country licenced-assembly—at a rate of no less than 20 aircraft per annum so that the IAF’s objective of fielding 42 combat squadrons is realised by 2022.

A bit pointless but I like learning about such things. In all this Rafale hoopla I'm sure many of us have lost sight of the fact that the package coming to India includes a lot more than just the birds. The trivial things like simulators, hangers, ground maintenance vehicles etc etc really intrigue me. I am looking forward to the day when the exact support and training (as well as weapons of course) package coming with the Rafale are revealed.

 

[SR-91]

@Abingdonboy , its not pointless,infact its a good read and thank you for sharing this with us.

7) Lastly, the M-MRCA on offer has to be delivered—through both off-the-shelf purchases as well as through in-country licenced-assembly—at a rate of no less than 20 aircraft per annum so that the IAF’s objective of fielding 42 combat squadrons is realised by 2022.

Cant wait for this process to be over!!!

 

[IND151]

The $10.4 billion contract for 126 multi-role medium range combat aircraft that India has awarded to French aircraft maker Dassault for its Rafale aircraft has not got bogged down in any controversy nor were certain issues holding it up, Minister of State for Defence Jitendra Singh has said.

Rafale deal is progressing, not bogged down: Indian minister | idrw.org

 

[sancho]

Thales AESA Radar to Enter Service on Rafale Soon

On display in the Thales pavilion, the AESA (active electronically scanned array) version of the RBE2 radar will soon become the first of its kind to go operational in Europe. The first French air force Rafale squadron to convert to the new fighter will receive four AESA-equipped aircraft in October. The first production radar was delivered last October and is completing operational testing at Mont de Marsan airbase.

Bruno Carrara, director of the Rafale program for Thales (Hall Concorde 51), told AIN that the Rafale’s air-to-air detection range is proving to be 50 percent greater than before, and the AESA also brings significant benefits to search-and-rescue mapping and in power management...

Thales AESA Radar to Enter Service on Rafale Soon | Aviation International News

 

[sancho]

Rafale in the French Air Force

Nice videos and pics:

Rafale News: Video, Rafale in the French Air Force

 

[sancho]

And another dogfight video, said to be from the current Tigermeet, F16 vs Rafale:

 

[Gessler]

And another dogfight video, said to be from the current Tigermeet, F16 vs Rafale:

That would be enough time to launch off a killer missile (in real combat).

 

[sancho]

That would be enough time to launch off a killer missile (in real combat).

Actually even the gun kill was pretty fast and easy, coupled with MICA and if we add HMS it would be even superior.

 

[jiki]

Rafales to touch Indian sky in 2016 | idrw.org

SOURCE: DNA

With the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and Dassault Aviation ironing out differences over the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), the supply of the Rafale aircraft is expected to begin in 2016-17.

According to a report in US-based Defense Update — a portal on military technology and defence news — French defence minister Jean-Yves Drain will visit India soon to conclude the MMRCA contract so that the supply of the first batch of aircraft can begin in 2016-17.

During the on-going Paris Air Show, HAL brass met with the top executives of Dassault Aviation to review the progress of the ongoing projects. “Both the teams expressed satisfaction on the work already achieved by the integrated teams and renewed their commitment towards successful completion of the various projects,” said a recent statement from HAL.

India’s plan to buy 126 fighter-jets from Dassault has been delayed even though the company won the fiercely fought bid two years ago. There have been reports that the deal has been delayed as Dassault and the government has not been able to finalise the role of HAL in the deal.

According to the deal, Dassault will provide 18 of the 126 aircraft in fly-away condition and the remaining are to be manufactured by the HAL. Media reports have stated that Dassault Aviation wants two contracts to be signed, one for the aircraft manufactured by it and another for the aircraft to be build by the HAL.

That apart, in the past, the French aircraft manufacturer has also expressed doubts over the technological and manufacturing capability of the HAL.


apart from the bloded part nothing is new

 

[sancho]

Why Dassault and France remain optimistic about signing a contract in India

The negotiations on the sale than 126 Rafale to India, after being very slow for several months on the issue of sharing of responsibilities between the French and Indian groups have taken over the last few weeks in all directions. Dassault Aviation, which no longer requires two separate contracts, one negotiates now.

The government and Dassault Aviation have been particularly enthusiastic in recent days on the implementation before the end of a contract for the sale of 126 Rafale in India. Why the optimism? According to reliable sources, the negotiations have been very slow after several months on the issue of shared responsibility, have taken over the last few weeks in all directions. "Very often when negotiations get stuck on one thing, once the obstacle, they leave at full capacity," said a close case. The Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian even sold a little bit of explaining early last week that negotiations had resumed at a good pace. "There has been significant progress, he explained, I hope they will continue and, if the contract is completed, it will be very good news for Dassault, the aerospace industry and for France..."

Why Dassault and France remain optimistic about signing a contract in India

 

[Taygibay]

Hello all!
I was asked in another thread by Abingdonboy for a general opinion on the Rafale's M-MRCA selection and am now answering.
I understand the thread here is also in full swing but it is the proper place to answer our mate's query and heck, it might serve as a refresher for the new people.

So here we go :
The initial points in what is now the "Deal of the Century" (again,lol) where strictly Indian. Obtaining 39.5 SQ strength for IAF which took place in the mid-80s was long enough so the good Mig-21's replacement was already on the Bharat plate. Then the PAF's so called Lost Decade should be factored in as it somewhat stifled the need of the IAF as proven by the Kargil War's aerial component. The original replacement ( corrected / edited from _MRCA_ thanks to Sancho's remark ) should have been started around 1995 in all logic. Between economics and the "lost decade", the Indian govt disregarded somewhat the format of the IAF.
The following In-house problem for India was the timeframe components. Why did a 2000-1 need take 5+ years to get to the 2006 RFP? The main consequence of that delay in my honest opinion is the missed opportunity on the transfer of the Mirage 2000 production line. It is also to be linked to the LCA though. Had the RFP issued faster, it could have resulted in a govt to govt deal on the M2K but then again, the LCA/Tejas development, had it fulfilled all its promises on time might also have been the solution to dwindling Sq numbers? So that there are at least one and more likely two missed opportunities there to fill the gap without an MMRCA affair?

Fast forward to 2006. We now have the complex set-up and all of its side issues. Corruption or dubious practices lengthened the selection. We all remember the numerous incidents from the M2K to Raffy switch or the French officials that denounced a bribe attempt by an Indian official just to pick from events involving "my" side. Strangely enough, the Rafale itself ( and others ) profited from that. If one re-reads the first line of the RFP Abingdonboy gave us anew in post 8510 up there, the "M-MRCA on offer has to be a fully functional and mature system, with all its listed capabilities already in operational service and not requiring any further fine-tuning or R & D work."
None of the jets involved truly fit that clause by trials time but had the timeframe been shorter, the AESA demo as one example would not have flown to Leh again picking from the French side?

Before the trials, many non-military matters also weighed in. The well-documented US habit to control the products it sells or parts thereof ( think imbroglio over source codes of F-35 with top ally UK ) is one. The fact that France was almost the only big player to stand by India on the nuclear/sanctions issue is another. Each of us could probably add to that list?
The good thing though is that, discounting fanboys, the IAF's exceptionally stringent and complete assessment through the trials phase put that to rest. It was a good thing, a very good thing. After such a quality downselect process, gone were the minor considerations brought forth by the so varied field.
[ Over-reliance on Russia ( which also sells to China ); Gripen that overshadows LCA by size/type factor; why Mig35 and not more SU-30MKI, any/all on top of those mentioned above, etc. ]

Once the Typhoon and Rafale were chosen by the IAF, things should have gone simpler. Yes, as amateurs of the mili aircraft, we could discuss tactics or which of the 2 would fit better between Jags, M2k, Tejas and Su-30MKI/FGFA later on but it had become a matter of LPI. Rafale won that and the race ended. It is quite possible that it was helped in that respect by the single vendor aspect. What I mean by that is that for the Eurofighter, money problems were compounded 4 times and decisions being collegiate might have required a tad more time. It shows in the Uk mostly which is more adamant on development and slowed a little by having to crosscheck its moves with the other 3 less it pays for everything alone. A lot of the ensuing noise actually sprang from fanboys mixing pre-selection conceptions of very relative value and industrial concerns. The former I won't enter as they are part of why I almost do not go on fora anymore.
The latter though is still important as it resurfaced since the deal brokering began. This in all truth is where some Desi might take exception to my views but heck, those who know me or read my blog will know that there is no disrespect intended.

I think that many in India when treating the negotiation process, tend to forget India's own bugs! One, constantly bringing back the Tejas is a mistake. If it had been realized properly and in time, yes, but it wasn't now, was it? Everybody and their sisters was asked in the LCA at some point so that singling out US/UK or France is downright stupid? For reasons of size and resources, Pakistan chose the second seat cooperation with China on the JF-17 for instance. That was a logical way to develop the National abilities in mili aeronautics, period. Similarly, India chose to go full indigenous in the same respect and for the same reasons it was a correct decision. But at some point, if one wants to better themselves, an honest assessment of one's mistakes is necessary. DRDO and HAL have not yet delivered on the LCA matter, also period and sorry for being blunt? Such a feat as desiging and producing an efficient flying war machine does not happen by snapping one's fingers and HAL is no Dassault yet ( nor Sukhoi, Boeing, etc ). That is no sneer or jest, simple fact.
The same can be said of HAL's performance on the MKI assembly BTW. Just find an honest timeline of it and you will have to admit that the promises were not kept there either. Admitting as much would make Dassault's stand on the responsibility much easier to understand. They have proved to be able to build top fighters. Israel knows that, Pakistan knows that and India knows that!!! And while I am not enough of an expert on India to properly debate the value of Reliance Industries per say, the fact remains that this corporation has shown the ability to enter a new field running? Then if Dassault thought they could merge their expertise with that ability to insure a quality procurement, they should be trusted on it and not insulted over it as I read in Indian fora?
I do understand the problem raised by RIL being private but again, was it their fault that HAL is complacent ( possibly because public sector )? Was it normal to expect Dassault to hinge its profit margin on the past record of HAL such as it is? Would anyone of you accept readily to be paired with a less able co-worker and told that although not in charge nor authorized to overrule him your pay will hence be computed according to the colleague's proficiency??? I would not, period!

The last contentious point in our saga will then have to be TOT. I kept that for last as it is the one thing that so very few of us and mostly the fanboys understand fully. Unless directly involved, it is darn near impossible to know what the technology sharing comprises. Let me then give a theoretical example.
Nation A signs a deal with Nation B with a high ToT component on lollipop manufacturing. As the B vendor investigates the A industry, it discovers serious lacks. Such comprehensive lacks in fact that the level of transfer envisioned is simply unrealistic over the purported deal's timeframe. If one sticks ( pun intended ) to lollipops and schedule, it cannot be done in full.
If A & B have nothing else to exchange, the contract's objective might be unattainable.
Let us now suppose that the vendor has other technological achievements to its credit. If the A recipient is interested, it may elect to get only half of the transfer applied in the lollipop factory and to get the rest from transfers in wheat transformation or industrial packaging for food. If the added value is high enough, the initial goal is still obtained globally for A's industries although not strictly on the original premise and thus the deal can be saved?
In the M-MRCA case, this can be linked to my above considerations on HAL's performance. Recent pieces suggested that the ASMP-A could be included in the ToT. That stems from the fact that in such deals, governments have a big if not major say?
Suppose ( just a supposition, no more ) that Dassault and the Indian CNC agree behind closed doors that HAL will not be able to fully acquire the technologies concerned by the Transfer proposal. It then falls on either Dassault and / or other members of the Rafale GIE ( Thales, Safran, etc ) and / or the French government to offer palliative solutions? Those in turn have to be weighed for acceptable replacement interest by the concerned parts of the Indian govt / industry. And then the factorization of what the loss / gain in the other field is the basis for negotiating the overall value of the ToT?
None of us really know the subjects, domains nor parameters included ( and those that do would not be allowed to discuss it here? ) and as such, in my honest opinion, it is so much ado about nothing to press the issue?

There you have it, in a nutshell of course! I skipped over the outside interference sources such elections but as it stands, the deal is apparently on course and I trust that once finalized, the IAF and all other parties will benefit from it. As far as I'm concerned, the next big news will be either the addition of the supplemental 80-some ACs or barring that, the first flight of a Rafale in IAF livery and maybe the acquisition of the Indian HMCS solution for it by the Armée de L'Air?

I'll be back soon to catch your pots and flowers and good day all, Tay.

P.S. As long as I have taken so much of your time, if any Pakistani ( and Hindi ) Gentleman ( or Lady ) has the time to drop by Definitive Lapse of Reason, I posted on the geo-politics of Asia a couple days ago and would appreciate and profit from answers and comments? It is after all A- your neck of the global woods and B- never too late to learn? Thnx in advance.