Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Kloitra]

Rafael would have cost more to produce - yes. Not to maintain we already planning to have 126 of them.

You mean a single engine and twin engine, light and medium aircraft cost equal to maintain? Start with fuel, than maintenance of that extra engine, and so on..

You can't replace a single engine light fighter with twin engine medium one - says who ??? Do you know which planes heavy MKIs are replacing ??? Or coming Rafaels will be replacing ???

MKI and Rafale are multirole aircraft. They are replacing air-sup and strike aircraft at the same time. It means they can replace a mig 21 and mig 27 (both single role) simultaneously. Mirage is already a multirole plateform. One Mki or one Rafale is cost effective when replacing two short life single role maintenance heavy aircraft. You reduce the burden of shrinking fleet size, reduce infra, reduce groundsmen, service people etc. Would Rafale be equally effective replacing a cheaper, lighter multirole aircraft?

And those planes they are replacing are outdated. They have no place 10 years from now. Same is not true for upgraded mirage.

Off shelf is out if question I know. Bt that's the problem here.

Opportunity to gain experience of what ??? Upgrading 3rd gen plane to 4th ??? I though HAL was more interested in building 5th gen ( sarcasm ) calling it apportunity is wrong. Say a waist of time , money and manpower. Direct upgrade would have been more fast and some relevance

Building a plane from scratch and upgrading a platform, irrelevant of its generation, are different experience.

 

[Sergi]

You mean a single engine and twin engine, light and medium aircraft cost equal to maintain? Start with fuel, than maintenance of that extra engine, and so on..

does it should like that ??? maintaining miraj+jag = maintaining 1 Rafael or even less.

MKI and Rafale are multirole aircraft. They are replacing air-sup and strike aircraft at the same time. It means they would replace a mig 21 and mig 27 (single role) both simultaneously. Mirage is already a multirole plateform. One Mki or one Rafale is cost effective when replacing two short life single role maintenance heavy aircraft. You reduce the burden of shrinking fleet size, reduce infra, reduce groundsmen, service people etc. Would Rafale equally effective replacing a cheaper, lighter multirole aircraft?

I know that. If I am not wrong it was your question. Not mine.
You want to compare Rafael with M2K your choice. Costs are important but not over operational capabilities. If you missed the news French forces are retiring miraj from service and inducting Rafaels. Guess why ???

And those planes they are replacing are outdated. They have no place 10 years from now. Same is not true for upgraded mirage.
Building a plane from scratch and upgrading a platform, irrelevant of its generation, are different experience.

Humm tell me upgraded M2K will be more than 4th gen and I will accept it. I will be needing some reputable member or source.

 

[Kloitra]

does it should like that ??? maintaining miraj+jag = maintaining 1 Rafael or even less.

Definitely not. But maintaining/flying a single mirage is cheaper than a Rafale.

I know that. If I am not wrong it was your question. Not mine.
You want to compare Rafael with M2K your choice. Costs are important but not over operational capabilities. If you missed the news French forces are retiring miraj from service and inducting Rafaels. Guess why ???

Nope, you said instead of M2K upgrade, we should go for more Rafale. My point is currently Rafale is replacing less capable single role fighters. No point in it replacing a cheaper, multirole fighter which, after upgrades, continue to satisfy criterion of IAF. Why French are retiring Mirage, well probably to keep Dasault afloat when they can only keep either of the plane. I dont know. I know that Mirage satisfy IAF, and after upgrades would continue to do so for its lifetime.

Humm tell me upgraded M2K will be more than 4th gen and I will accept it. I will be needing some reputable member or source.

Its a fourth gen. Quite capable at that. IAF is satisfied. That is enough.

 

[Nishan_101]

I am sure that not only a single plane will win. Rather it will both Rafael, EF-2000 and Grippen. I know like last time all of you will be laughing and DRDO's chief had a visit to Grippen in the past as well....???
Also heard that IAF is interested in MiG-35 and Su-35s

Which is quite amazing to see

 

[Abingdonboy]

I am sure that not only a single plane will win. Rather it will both Rafael, EF-2000 and Grippen. I know like last time all of you will be laughing and DRDO's chief had a visit to Grippen in the past as well....???
Also heard that IAF is interested in MiG-35 and Su-35s

Which is quite amazing to see

Come on Nishan, at a time when the IAF is trying to cut down on the diversity of its fighter fleet by replacing 2-3 types of solo-role fighter with 1 multi-role fighter, why would they then induct 3-5 different platforms in limited numbers? It makes no sense, the IAF held the MMRCA competition to evaluate the best medium multi-role platform for them and they achieved their objective- the Rafale won. Why would the IAF now induct the losers of this competition? The Rafale beat all of them hands down.



Wet the Su-35, nah- the IAF isn't interested- their SUPER SU-30MKIs will be on par or superior to the Su-35.

 

[Storm Force]

its gone VERY QUIET HUSH HUSH ON the RAFALE PURCHASE lately.

especially since i infamously suggested IAF "MAY CANCEL" this programme citing concerns of TOT and cost but also FRENCH insistance on providing no guranteess on 108 HAL aassembled fighters.

HAS THERE BEEN ANY PROGRESS SINCE

I WOUKD HATE TO SEE MY FEARS come true !!!!!!!!!!!!!1

 

[black_jack]

its gone VERY QUIET HUSH HUSH ON the RAFALE PURCHASE lately.

especially since i infamously suggested IAF "MAY CANCEL" this programme citing concerns of TOT and cost but also FRENCH insistance on providing no guranteess on 108 HAL aassembled fighters.

HAS THERE BEEN ANY PROGRESS SINCE

I WOUKD HATE TO SEE MY FEARS come true !!!!!!!!!!!!!1

No problem, government will switch to EF2000

 

[Storm Force]

black jack

i was asking any POSITIVE NEWS on RAFALE

" god could the french really blow this deal too " ?????????//

 

[Sergi]

its gone VERY QUIET HUSH HUSH ON the RAFALE PURCHASE lately.

especially since i infamously suggested IAF "MAY CANCEL" this programme citing concerns of TOT and cost but also FRENCH insistance on providing no guranteess on 108 HAL aassembled fighters.

HAS THERE BEEN ANY PROGRESS SINCE

I WOUKD HATE TO SEE MY FEARS come true !!!!!!!!!!!!!1

"HATE" ??? Are you sure boddy you chose the right word I though you hate Rafael

How lately ??? How about Page 557 & Post#8343

 

[Abingdonboy]

"HATE" ??? Are you sure boddy you chose the right word I though you hate Rafael

How lately ??? How about Page 557 & Post#8343

Don't waste your time buddy, I don't know what's going on with @Storm Force on the MMRCA issue, he seems to have lost his mind over the issue:

From a few days ago:

Other than 125 mig21 bison there's no more fishbeds. Ie 6 sqds....
There are another 6 sdqs of mig27 with 120 planes.
All of these wil or should be phased out by 2018...
8 sqd of mki and 6 of mirage 2000/mig29. 280 planesth
This leaves 120 jaguar in 6 more sqns .




If the mig21/27 are phased within five years then iaf need to induct 12 or 13 sqds in just 5 years mirgae
I see 7 more flankers sqds joining in 5 years and two lca tejas mk1 by 2018...
Finally by 2018 one sqd of rafale f3 or additional mirages 2000 second hand

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...-2-front-war-has-only-34-a-8.html#post4226947



Apparently nothing less than daily updates over these CONFIDENTIAL negotiations from the CNC/MoD/IAF will do to pacify his delusions!!!

 

[BRICS]

NEARLY 8,500 REPLIES, ALMOST 1,000,000 VIEWS AND STILL IT'S ONLY A PAPER PLANE.

 

[Abingdonboy]

NEARLY 8,500 REPLIES, ALMOST 1,000,000 VIEWS AND STILL IT'S ONLY A PAPER PLANE.

Actually the Rafale flies just fine:

Joking aside, yes this procurement has taken longer than most would've wanted but a procurement of this scale and complexity is almost unprecedented and thus there is no set timetable and delays and issues are bound to crop up- that's just how it is.

 

[Sergi]

Don't waste your time buddy, I don't know what's going on with @Storm Force on the MMRCA issue, he seems to have lost his mind over the issue:
!

Don't be so rude after all we all agree to disagree
See like this whom will we poke after the deal is signed

 

[Abingdonboy]

Don't be so rude after all we all agree to disagree
See like this whom will we poke after the deal is signed

Lol, It's just that that thread he started based on nothing really got under my skin- I can't tell you why, it just did!

 

[sancho]

I do not think IAF does not knew that basic thing, there might be reason for doing the same.

Of course there is, but not everbody keeps in mind that the M2K most likely is one of our nuklear strike options and that it most likely will get further upgrades in that direction as well (specialised avionics and stuff). But apart from that, the sheer ammount of ignoring of facts about this upgrade deal in comparison to other things is amazing.

@sancho does the upgrade of mki from 2015 as u mentioned also includes asea and al-41?

AESA yes, but it's not clear if Zhuk or BARS, engine upgrades were never mentioned yet, but he recent procurement of high numbers of AL 31 hints in a clear direction.

But we are using them right now as they are. Aren't we ??? And upgrade isn't going to happen overnight. I am pretty sure it will run even after we induct first Sqdn of Rafale...

...@sancho : you are right on Gripen that it would have cost more in training and infa. How about adding more Rafael instead ???

Are we? How do you expect M2K to fight JF 17B1 or J10A today without BVR capability? Without RCS reductions? Without HMS and modern WVR missiles? So even today they lack behind and to cover that, for the use of another 10 to 15 years, they need life extention and modernisations.
The Jags as I often say are next to useless, with every multi role fighter we are adding to the fleet, since they all will be prefered in the strike from now onwards, which is why, it would have been wiser, to limit the Darin 3 upgrade to basics only and try to sell off the latest Jags to Afghanistan or similar countries.

Rafales instead Mirage is possible, since we procure it in MMRCA anyway, but the costs are several times higher than the Mirage upgrade and why would we replace it with a 4.5 gen fighter, when the aim is to replace it with a 5th gen fighter in future (FGFA)?

Most of you guys simply say the upgrade is costly, by looking only at the figure, but without seeing the whole picture of what IAF has in mind and what the other costs really would be. The $900 millions for Migs doesn't include the engine, or avionics costs, which means at the end it's more like $2.1 billion for Mirage and more than $1.5 billions for the Migs.
Doesn't look that much different anymore does it?

@sancho

I would rather prefer a less cost combo of Elta 2032_derby ungradation of M2k.

Not possible, once because Israel can't provide the overhaul and modernisation of the airframe, nor can Derby be used at any other hardpoints that the wet stations, which means, it would be limited to a single fuel tank and just 2 derbys.