Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[RPK]

Dassault wants HAL role separated, $20-bn combat aircraft jet deal hits air-pocket - Indian Express


The government's negotiations with Dassault on the $20-billion deal to buy 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft have come to a standstill after the French aviation firm informed authorities that it cannot be held responsible for the 108 aircraft to be produced by HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd).

What started as a point of difference between the defence ministry and Dassault over the role of HAL escalated after the firm told Indian negotiators that the government will have to sign separate contracts — one with Dassault for 18 'fly-away' aircraft and another with HAL, which will produce 108 jets under licence.

Dassault said it will supply manufacturing kits and equipment to HAL on time after which the contract with HAL will take over and Dassault will play no further role.

MoD is learnt to have completely rejected this suggestion and made it clear to Dassault that it will be solely responsible for the sale and delivery of all 126 aircraft. The deal will be only with Dassault and it will be the single point of contact, sources said.

The problem has its roots in the request for proposal document, which mandated that the winning firm will supply 18 aircraft and licence manufacture 108 in India. Also, it specified HAL as the prime integrator for this purpose.

After winning the bid, Dassault sought clarity on HAL's role and said it should have the freedom to decide the degree to which it intends to involve HAL. However, MoD clarified in January that HAL was mandated as the prime integrator and would remain so.

This seems to be the cause of the trouble, sources said, as none of the bidders held any discussions with HAL before submitting bids. Therefore, HAL-related issues were possibly not factored into the bids and to now work out the terms and conditions with HAL could prove tough.

It is learnt that Dassault has been at it for a while, but time is beginning to run out with sources indicating that MoD does not want this to linger beyond this month.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Will india ever finalise this deal?

AYE DEAL VEE OS KANJRI VERGA HO GAYA HAI JERY NACH NACH BUDHI HO JANDI AYE PAR DENDI KISI NUN NAYEEN....

 

[ejaz007]

India-France giant fighter jet deal stalled


NEW DELHI: India's negotiations with France's Dassault Aviation on a $12-billion deal for Rafale fighter jets have stalled due to disagreements over the production of the planes in India, a report said Friday.

The defence deal, one of the biggest ever, was to see the manufacture of the first 18 of the jets in France with the remainder to be produced under licence by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), a state-run Indian aerospace behemoth.

The Indian Express newspaper, citing anonymous sources in its report, said that Dassault had refused to take responsibility for the 108 jets to be manufactured by HAL, sparking a row with New Delhi.

The French firm reportedly told Indian officials that New Delhi would have to negotiate two contracts, one with Dassault for 18 fighters and the other with HAL for the remaining 108 aircraft.

The defence ministry "completely rejected this suggestion and made it clear to Dassault that it (the French company) will be solely responsible for the sale and delivery of all 126 aircraft," the newspaper reported, citing sources.

Dassault is thought to have reservations about the ability of HAL, a firm renowned for its inefficiencies, to handle the complex manufacturing and technology transfers which are a crucial part of the deal.

The Rafale beat off stiff competition from six rivals from Russia, the US and Europe last year when India selected the French fighter to replace its ageing fleet.

Its main rival, the Eurofighter made by European group EADS, has remained in India and is still hoping to bag the deal in case Dassault is unable to conclude the negotiations successfully.

A Dassault spokeswoman said she was unable to comment immediately on the report.

The Rafale has carried out bombing missions in Afghanistan, Libya and most recently in Mali, where it is currently flying sorties targeting Islamist militants.

India's air force chief said in February that the country hopes to sign the deal with Dassault Aviation by the middle of the year.

India-France giant fighter jet deal stalled - thenews.com.pk

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

India-France giant fighter jet deal stalled
India-France giant fighter jet deal stalled - thenews.com.pk

Does every defence deal in India has to go through a Delay or controversies .. ?
Grap on the jets and let the EGOS go.

 

[air marshal]

India's negotiations with France's Dassault Aviation on a $12-billion deal for Rafale fighter jets have stalled due to disagreements over the production of the planes in India, a report said Friday.

Read more: AFP: India-France giant fighter jet deal stalled: report

 

[sancho]

I am with Dassault with this one you can't have HAL take over the production and then blame Dassault in case HAL messes up and delays the delivery.

Crossposting from IDF

It has less to do with HALs production line, or their capability, but that Dassault wants more of the production for them and their JV partner Reliance! This is a matter of economic benefit of 2 privat companies and MoD should be very clear about it to Dassault, that they are not in the position to demand anything!

'Rafale deal likely by mid-2013' | Business Standard

..:: India Strategic ::. IAF: Rafale Partners with Reliance


We have also seen in the HAWK deal, what happens when the foreign manufacturer just provide the kits, without the necessary toolings and things he is not responsible anymore. After we punished them, the production at HAL went without any issues. Same must be the case with MMRCA, Dassault is responsible for the complete deal and have to provide HAL with anything it needs to fullfil the agreement and not to divert the production to their own partners. Btw, what know how does Reliance have in the aero field, that makes them to a better choice than HAL? Can anybody point this out?

 

[Abingdonboy]

. Btw, what know how does Reliance have in the aero field, that makes them to a better choice than HAL? Can anybody point this out?

Because some people are naive enough to think in the case of defence (and beyond) pvt company=superior. In some cases this is true but it is not a general rule to live by. And anyway I don't think Reliance is the best pvt player Dassualt could have tied up with , given the way they have mis-handled the Mumbai Metro and Delhi Metro's Airprot express line.

 

[IND151]

Tussle over HAL’s role in Manufacturing of Rafale fighter jet 126 combat aircraft is finally out in open, Dassault’s demands might be a deal breaker as Dassault wants to control Production of the aircraft and wants to maintain its control over the technology of the aircraft.

Dassault has been actively promoting Reliance aerospace has a main support company for HAL, Dassault has been trying to push a bigger role for Reliance aerospace in a way that will lead to lesser dominance of the HAL in Rafale production in India, Expert see Dassault demands has a way to deny HAL transfer of critical technology and to maintain its grip over their property,but whole stubborn attitude of Dassault might be a deal breaker for them.

While Eurofighter consortium have been keeping close watch over the whole negotiation with French and Indian negotiators, and have been counting on French attitude for them to re enter into the multi dollar fighter deal. According to experts India will not agree on Dassault’s demand for two separate contracts to be signed for the deal which includes one for the 18 aircraft to be built by the firm in France and the other for the 108 aircraft which are be integrated in India by the HAL.

Eurofighter consortium have agreed to have a relook again at the price and have promised the aircraft could be delivered within months and that the final price could come down.India has been trying to work on a deal with French company so has to not waste one year of hectic negotiations which took place, but if solution doesn't come out of this tussle then and Indian team will be forced to open negotiations with Eurofighter consortium over possible sale of Eurofighter Typhoon.




Will Eurofighter consortium have the last laugh in MMRCA Deal ?? | idrw.org

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

if Typhoon comes in mki would have to shift focuses on strike capabilities because initially Typhoon wouldn't have much air to ground capabilities.

 

[sancho]

if Typhoon comes in mki would have to shift focuses on strike capabilities because initially Typhoon wouldn't have much air to ground capabilities.

Don't fall on the media hype, the chances for the EF to be considered again, or at all were and are minimal. Be it costs, capability, or availability, it is simply a bad choice for IAF in the configuration that will be available in the next years. Also even if the EF would come, MKI might have the superior radar detection, while it were especially the western A2G weapons that would be important alternatives for IAF, next to the Russian and coming Indian once. MKI for sure is more capable in A2G than the EF, but so is the Mirage 2000, or the Mig 29 UPG, it simply is not a useful multi role fighter at the moment, or anytime soon.

 

[ghaja]

Don't fall on the media hype, the chances for the EF to be considered again, or at all were and are minimal. Be it costs, capability, or availability, it is simply a bad choice for IAF in the configuration that will be available in the next years. Also even if the EF would come, MKI might have the superior radar detection, while it were especially the western A2G weapons that would be important alternatives for IAF, next to the Russian and coming Indian once. MKI for sure is more capable in A2G than the EF, but so is the Mirage 2000, or the Mig 29 UPG, it simply is not a useful multi role fighter at the moment, or anytime soon.

Yes I agree with you

 

[ejaz007]

Does every defence deal in India has to go through a Delay or controversies .. ?
Grap on the jets and let the EGOS go.

It is not a matter of ego. The point is if Dasault is Relieved of her responsibilities as prime contractor and HAL manufactured planes do not perform as required than who is to be punished.

I think this is very important stage in the contract negotiations.

 

[sancho]

It is not a matter of ego. The point is if Dasault is Relieved of her responsibilities as prime contractor and HAL manufactured planes do not perform as required than who is to be punished.

I think this is very important stage in the contract negotiations.

That would be understandable, if HAL would be responsible for all delays and if Dassault would want another Indian manufacturer in the aero field to take over parts of the production instead (TATA or Mahindra for example). However, that is not the case, they would like to see in my earlier post:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-556.html#post4119782


It looks much more like they want to divert more parts of the production to their JV partner Reliance (possibly even initiated by them), for the benefit of both of these privat companies. Reliance gets a bigger deal, while Dassault can get more control of what parts of the production they provide and therefor also about the ToT.

Wrt to HAL, some crosspostings from IDF:

Some of the work packages for renowned international aerospace leaders include:

Airbus A320 Forward Passenger Doors
Boeing 757 Over Wing Exit Doors
Boeing 777 Uplock Box Assembly
Boeing 767 Bulk Cargo Doors
Boeing 737 Freighter Conversion Kits
Boeing F/A 18 Gun Bay Door
Boeing P-8 I Weapon Doors & Tailcone
Eurocopter Ecureuil composites
Boeing -3D-Modelling / Digitisation of Drawings

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited - Exports - Aerostructures

HAL: Rolls Royce production facility opened in B'lore

Friday, 15 March 2013

The Rs 135-crore International Aerospace Manufacturing (IAMPL) production facility, a joint venture between Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd and Rolls-Royce, was inaugurated in Bangalore on Friday.

The unit, to have an employee strength of about 100, incorporates the latest Rolls-Royce manufacturing techniques for making 130 different compressor parts. Incorporated in July 2010, IAMPL is a 50:50 joint venture company (JVC) of HAL and Rolls-Royce (the UK). The JVC is will have about 225 vendors initially...

...The state-of-the-art facility in Bangalore will produce components for the technologically advanced Trent family of civil aero engines, as well as for a number of marine and energy gas turbines, he said...

HAL: Rolls Royce production facility opened in B'lore - Sakshi Post

Look beyond hawk, says BAE Chairman

BAE Systems chairman Dick Olver on Tuesday said the business relationship between Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and BAE should go beyond the advanced jet trainer (AJT) Hawk project.

“Both the partners could think of working on new projects in 17 countries where BAE has its presence,” Olver said during his visit to the HAL facility in the city...

...“A new business model such as Performance Based Logistics (PBL) could be an area of cooperation with HAL learning from BAE experiences,” he said...

Look beyond hawk, says BAE Chairman - The New Indian Express

Eurocopter India retains the market lead in 2012, contributing to its parent company’s strong annual performance

...Industrial co-operation remains a focal strategy for the company, with many local partnerships formed to boost the local aviation industry. Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. has been the global supplier of composite chipsets for Eurocopter’s Ecureuil/Fennec helicopter family; Pawan Hans Helicopters, who owns the largest Dauphin fleet in the world, operates the only Eurocopter-approved MRO (maintenance, repairs and overhaul) centre for Dauphin helicopters in India; and Mahindra & Mahindra has come on board as a commercial partner in the joint development of new market segments...

EADS Global Website - Eurocopter India retains the market lead in 2012, contributing to its parent company

...Reinforced by five decades of unparalleled presence and cooperation with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, Eurocopter is further developing sourcing activities through industrial partnership with HAL and Mahindra...

EADS Global Website - EADS in India



IF HAL would really be that bad as many believes, these big companies must be nuts to divert more and more production from their high quality companies in the west, to India right?


And wrt to the delays:

Some delay in delivery of SU-30 jets, says Jitendra Singh

...The others include the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), the Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer, Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT), Advance Light Helicopter (ALH), Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), Light Utility Helicopter (LUH), Minister of State for Defence Jitendra Singh told Lok Sabha in a written reply.

He said HAL has taken up indigenous production of SU-30 MKI fighter, LCA, Hawk, IJT, ALH, LCH, LUH and Dornier-228 for the defence forces, and while the Dornier-228 programme has been as per schedule but there have been some delays in deliveries in respect of production programmes of other aircraft.

“In the initial stages of the projects, delays were due to additional re-work on jigs in Hawk, late receipt of drawings from Russia for Su-30 MKI, integration issues of Integrated Architecture and Display System (IADS) with Shakti engine and other new items in respect of ALH and design and development issues relating to IJT and LCA. The certification of IJT was also delayed due to an accident of Prototype-1 and failure of Stress Test Specimen,” he said...

Some delay in delivery of SU-30 jets, says Jitendra Singh - Saanj News | Saanj News


Which shows that HAL was not responsible for all these problems and keep in mind that BAE was even punished, because their mistakes had caused delays in the HAL productionline. India is simply making sure, that the winner of MMRCA will not only do it's best to provide 18 fighters, but will remained focused to provide the full 126 fighters, as sooth and fast as possible. If they think HAL has to modernise certain things to achieve that, no problem, MoD / HAL will surely take such advice under consideration and but it's not a one sides game, since the foreign manufacturers have to do their best as well and must be willing to provide the necessary ToT and assistance!

 

[arp2041]

@sancho thanks for your above post.

I want to know if it makes sense to increase the order of 18 planes directly in fly-away condition to somewhere around 30s (or 2 squads atleast)??

This way, HAL will get the time to set-up assembly lines easily & IAF will get the much needed nos. quickly.

 

[sancho]

@sancho thanks for your above post.

I want to know if it makes sense to increase the order of 18 planes directly in fly-away condition to somewhere around 30s (or 2 squads atleast)??

This way, HAL will get the time to set-up assembly lines easily & IAF will get the much needed nos. quickly.

Of course it would make sense, since it would counter our falling squad numbers and personally I would even get 3 squads directly from France, while increasing the overall order to 200. However, just like with the additional MKIs, there is a focus on producing as many as possible in India, even if that takes longer to induct them. If the order will not be increased, I don't see a chance for more than the first squadron.