Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[kingdurgaking]

"micro technology" What now ?
I wrote three journal papers on nanotech almost 9 years ago in my bachelors, trust me there is a crap load of research on it.

Now as far as research funding goes, hold your horses on that, we are not the west, half our population goes to bed hungry, whatever money we are flashing has generated in less than two decades. There is a long long loooooonnnnnggg way to go before you see western model of research in our universities.

And for the outcome I am very optimistic, we are not in the forefront of technological breakthroughs, we are in a sense replicating certain feature in an aircraft already done by certain nation, hence the parameters are well defined with available technology proliferation/collaboration from tech giants like israel, Russia and france. It's not that we are setting out to make something never seen before in the world like americans/germans did. AMCA is achievable, and hopefully LCA will do the same for amca, what ALH did for the LCH!

This is what i doubt in ... we are overestimating something .. and give false promise to nation... let us estimate pessimistically and do optimistically..

and your agreement on research is the reality... if we dont have the basic thing in universities , how do you expect the industries to cope up?.. The big picture is we want to build castle out of glass but there is less worker with literally nil practical experience.. the worker knows the technology and tells it is possible... but he does not have the know-how how to build with the technology.... so what he does is he adds all the safety things... and a point of time he builds a castle but with cement blocks here and there.. but the original requirement is only glass castle...

similarly we build Tejas in this fashion... now we are moving into AMCA your argument is we will achieve with.. yes but with cement blocks AMCA is no tejas.. Tejas MK-2 is Tejas.. AMCA is totally a different dream and ambition ... Technology laid out underneath is totaly different compared to Tejas.. None of Tejas know-how can be applied on it.. Even the FBW or FBL will be done in different fashion.. It is not a copy paste code ...

 

[IND151]

Broadsword: Air Chief expects Rafale contract by mid-2013

 

[sancho]

The thing which i am trying to explain here is ... we dont know what requirement will be there after 10-15 yrs... if we think Rafale can solve all the problem of the threat perception that is arising in next 10 -15 yrs then we are wrong... Rafale is a immediate requirement to fill the gaps

Which is wrong, the idea is long gone and MoD/IAF purposly chosed the one with the best future potential for the next 30 years, that is their assesment according to the air staff requirements, which is the base of the MMRCA competition!

The fact that they even want to increase the numbers, but add them later to the productionline as well shows, that they don't see it as a gap filler, but as a fighter with the technical capabilities to hold it's on in future as well, especially besides FGFA.
The point of view that by 2025 we will see only stealth fighters flying around is nuts, because most countries simply can't to procure and operate such large numbers of them. Even China will remain with several 100s of J10 and J11, with J20 in lower numbers on the upper side. IAF will have a mix of LCA, Rafale and MKI, with FGFA on the upper side. That increases our number of types, but also the variety of capabilities and weapons to do different roles.

=> no replacements, no roles, no cost advantages => no need for AMCA in IAF

 

[sancho]

It's not that we are setting out to make something never seen before in the world like americans/germans did. AMCA is achievable, and hopefully LCA will do the same for amca, what ALH did for the LCH!

It is, because WE didn't do it before and WE still didn't have the basic available in the aero field. This project is not doable if we do it the same way we did LCA and that's how it looks at the moment. But it only works if we do it as we did it with ALH, get foreign partners for the design and for the engines at least and hope we do better with avionics and radar this time.

 

[sancho]

PDL NG: DGA to Thales rescue (google translated)

This contract was expected for months, if not years: DGA confirmed this evening that it has awarded Thales a contract first "lifting risk" for an amount of € 55 million to start development work of the new designation pod PDL NG (laser designation pod generation)...

...The purpose of the program PDL NG is simple: it is to find a replacement for the current Damocles pod. But if it had been developed with strong financial support of United Arab Emirates, Paris is left alone to run PDL NG...


...Requested by the UAE in talks to buy Rafale, the integration of the Lockheed Martin Sniper pod has not been chosen by the DGA for the French operational, particularly in order to preserve the industrial sector. Another argument often cited by opponents of the Sniper is the inability for the U.S. to keep the nacelle shocks to the landing and catapult in its current configuration.

While the coarse resolution of the infrared sensor PDL NG will be less than half that of current Sniper, sources close to the matter specified the last year "Air & Cosmos" that technique "microscan" will double its resolution effective. Which should in theory allow display performance comparable to the nacelle U.S. ... but not before 2018.

http://translate.google.at/translate?hl=de&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http://www.air-cosmos.com/home.html


One more hint that we mostlikely go for the integration of Litening G4 into Mirage and Rafale. We just use the LDP competition to reduce the costs again.
And with the selection of SPICE 2000 to Mirage, it is likely to be integrated into Rafale (and LCA) too, would be great if we add SPIKE NLOS with a triple launcher to these fighters too, at least as long as a fighter version of HELINA is not available.

 

[kingdurgaking]

Which is wrong, the idea is long gone and MoD/IAF purposly chosed the one with the best future potential for the next 30 years, that is their assesment according to the air staff requirements, which is the base of the MMRCA competition!

The fact that they even want to increase the numbers, but add them later to the productionline as well shows, that they don't see it as a gap filler, but as a fighter with the technical capabilities to hold it's on in future as well, especially besides FGFA.
The point of view that by 2025 we will see only stealth fighters flying around is nuts, because most countries simply can't to procure and operate such large numbers of them. Even China will remain with several 100s of J10 and J11, with J20 in lower numbers on the upper side. IAF will have a mix of LCA, Rafale and MKI, with FGFA on the upper side. That increases our number of types, but also the variety of capabilities and weapons to do different roles.

=> no replacements, no roles, no cost advantages => no need for AMCA in IAF

My friend for instance... if you are earning say Rs10K now and you are solving all the needs now.. you can do this for couple of years.. if you say i dont want anything more than 10K.. in next 1/2 a decade you will be below poverty.... similarly if you say Rafale along with the inventory your have mentioned is the solution for next 10-15 yrs then you are wrong.. if that is the case USAF will not have formalized the requirement for NGAD ... nor china will invest in J-20 or J-15 .... you need to keep on investing your time money and energy in something ... otherwise doom will knock the door...
Other thing is we are struggling in Making Tejas because we have skipped one generation in between... If you dont invest money and time on AMCA we will be having a situation like what we had in 80's ... we wont have any expertise with any knowledge on this .... there wont be any country who will be helping us in this ... it is a kind of a complex problem.. neither GOI nor IAF are so stupid to invest time money on AMCA.... already we got wounded once.... if we dont learn this lesson we are the biggest fools..

Let AMCA be developed ... let it meet the IAF requirements ... naturally it will replace Rafale.. Rafale will be moved to secondary roles... if you think the crores we are spending today in rafale for next 20-25 yrs you are wrong in next 10 yrs we are going to spend the equal amount of money again on just upgrade... instead buy new platform that is ours.... which will be wise in all dimension

 

[sancho]

My friend for instance... if you are earning say Rs10K now and you are solving all the needs now.. you can do this for couple of years.. if you say i dont want anything more than 10K.. in next 1/2 a decade you will be below poverty....

That's why I will look to earn more money, so to upgrade my financial situation. That is the same that we do with fighters, because there capabilities are only good enough for around 10 to 15 years, then they will be upgraded to keep them capable enough for the requirements of the coming 10 to 15 years.
So there is no stillstand as you belive, Rafale has the potential to be highly capable for a long time and that's why we chose it.

Other thing is we are struggling in Making Tejas because we have skipped one generation in between...

Wrong, we are struggling with Tejas, because of our own faults in the planing and development stages. Because we didn't prioritised what is really needed and what is really doable by ourselfs. That's the same mistake we do with AMCA now!
We do need a stealth fighter, but for IN and developed as a carrier fighter, but ADA/DRDO are pushing this development (just like they did back then with LCA) accoding their own interests and not with looking at what our county / our forces really needs.

Let AMCA be developed ... let it meet the IAF requirements ... naturally it will replace Rafale.. Rafale will be moved to secondary roles...

As explained before, that's not possible because FGFA / AURA does everything in A2A/A2G, but much better than AMCA and all roles that are left (CAS, CAP, escorts) would be done by none stealth fighters, because they will do the same at waaaay lower costs, or more effectively. That's where LCA, Rafale and mainly armed drones will come in the game and not another stealth fighter like you believe. These are the secondary roles, while FGFA and AURA will do the prime roles!

 

[kingdurgaking]

That's why I will look to earn more money, so to upgrade my financial situation. That is the same that we do with fighters, because there capabilities are only good enough for around 10 to 15 years, then they will be upgraded to keep them capable enough for the requirements of the coming 10 to 15 years.
So there is no stillstand as you belive, Rafale has the potential to be highly capable for a long time and that's why we chose it.

Wrong, we are struggling with Tejas, because of our own faults in the planing and development stages. Because we didn't prioritised what is really needed and what is really doable by ourselfs. That's the same mistake we do with AMCA now!
We do need a stealth fighter, but for IN and developed as a carrier fighter, but ADA/DRDO are pushing this development (just like they did back then with LCA) accoding their own interests and not with looking at what our county / our forces really needs.

As explained before, that's not possible because FGFA / AURA does everything in A2A/A2G, but much better than AMCA and all roles that are left (CAS, CAP, escorts) would be done by none stealth fighters, because they will do the same at waaaay lower costs, or more effectively. That's where LCA, Rafale and mainly armed drones will come in the game and not another stealth fighter like you believe. These are the secondary roles, while FGFA and AURA will do the prime roles!

I believe in Rafale has potential but never it will have potential are capability equal to a 5 th generation fighter.. then why lot of countries are investing on it and buying them?.. definitely they are smarter than 4th generation fighters..
oke let me ask you a question.. you have a phone now.... a kind of smartphone... and you have iphone... which phone will you opt?... even if you posses the smartphone which you can upgrade the OS and use... you will prefer iphone right? same thing if AMCA is developed IAF will be thinking twice to upgrade Rafale which will cost the same money which we are spending now.. but if they use AMCA for the same money they can get the job done at less risk than Rafale... so naturally they do less expensive upgrade like they do with jaguar and use the entire life line of air frame.... if they buy AMCA(if developed) on long term the benefits is huge.. i hope you understand.. and i dont want to explain more...

secondly you are looking at a situation of country like france.. they dont need a fighter because they have friends next to them...there enemies are located far away places.... so even if they have a fighter of 5th gen or not it is fine.. they can take there UCAV and fight... but for India it is not the same.. we have smarter enemies who can take away our satellite ... DOD our servers and communication system.. may be AURA survives may be not.. in that case an entire fleet will be grounded a high risk.. we need manned fighters always on long term AMCA will be beneficial we cant always spend money to other countries... then the same loop will continue.. spend money to buy weapon from foreign countries.. naturally less money will be spend on R&D .... so no scope for an engineer to work on that field ... which means no one will join that field because there is less scope... eventually there will be less people to develop when a requirement comes... so delay and project gets scraped. which means spend more money to buy weapons from foreign countries.. so now you see the viscous loops? that is why we are struggling with tejas.. we dont have the expertise in proper planning and managing project of this scale... Trust me the bureaucrats are more intelligent than us .... they dont spend money that easily... if they spend Rs 1 they would see all the benefits..

 

[sancho]

I believe in Rafale has potential but never it will have potential are capability equal to a 5 th generation fighter..

Of course not, just like a Silent Hornet or Silent Eagle won't be equal to F22 or F35, but that doesn't mean the earlier would be useless right? And they don't have to be equal, because they won't be used for the same roles anymore, but in roles where they can play out there advantages.

oke let me ask you a question.. you have a phone now.... a kind of smartphone... and you have iphone... which phone will you opt?

The one that suits my requirements at best! I have a smartphone now and which to have my old slider back, because as a phone it was much better than any smartphone today. Longer standby, better micro, easier to write messages..., it simply suited my requirements more and if it didn't broke down, I would have never replaced it anytime soon, especially not with an Iphone

The point remains, for IAF there is no fighter to replace for AMCA, there is no operational advantage through AMCA, there is no cost benefit by developing AMCA... so no need for AMCA.
Basically the same reasons why IAF don't need HALs HTT40 now, they have the Pilatus now, the HTT 40 won't add any operational advantages, developing it will cost IAF more than simply procuring more Pilatus.

secondly you are looking at a situation of country like france..

Where? I was always talking about IAF and their situation in future

 

[arp2041]

Transfer Of Some Critical Technology Being Negotiated For As Part Of India's MMRCA Contract [Illustration]

The upwards of $10 billion USD deal with France for the acquisition of the Rafale fighter aircraft would involve local assembly, manufacturing offsets & Transfer of Technology [ToT].

This screenshot of the presentation slide, used by HAL's Chairman, during his talk at the Aero India 2013 International Seminar shows some of the critical technologies & sub-systems for which India is negotiating with France to be included as part of its Rafale acquisition.

In its mind, India would want France to hand over all the technologies used, with no restrictions on where it applies them subsequently. Realistically, it would start off with a position, whereby some hardware sub-systems could come directly from France, some that would be assembled in the country, sourcing the components & raw materials from original vendors, while some in which France would have to part with sufficient information for India to be in a position to make those components/sub-systems completely independent of French involvement, save for its certification - ToT. This position would be challenged by the French who'd be willing to offer less, asking for more. This back and forth would continue till they reach a mutually agreeable position, upon which the contract would be signed. Even after receiving the ToT, contractual obligation would dictate whether the same tech or manufacturing process could be applied in other projects - the case in point being the ToT received for growing Single Crystal Blades [SCB] used in the twin AL-31FP Turbofan engines powering the IAF's Sukhoi Su-30 MKIs1. While SCBs are being made for the Flanker engines, the Kaveri has not been able to reap the benefits.

Notes:

1 = "As HAL will do 80 per cent of the manufacturing, it will acquire new technologies like the directionally solidified blades, which will give us the technology for the future engines. Similarly, from the Sukhoi (Su-30 fighter deal) we acquired the single crystal blade technology, which will be the basis for all future turbine blades. This way, we get to master these technologies and meet our own requirements and exports, which is the thrust at HAL," Mr Mohanty said.

- HAL sees major spin-offs from AJT deal

"The aircraft engine has single crystal blades which are capable of withstanding very high temperatures. Considering that the aircraft is huge and has to operate in hot conditions, and its twin engines have the 11,500kg thrust each, the single crystal blades ensure that the thrust remains optimum. The Russians have given this technology to us for the first time."

- Force Magazine, October 2009

Transfer Of Some Critical Technology Being Negotiated For As Part Of India's MMRCA Contract [Illustration] - AA Me, IN

 

[kurup]

HAL will be 'main partner' in Rafale aircraft deal: Dassault


BANGALORE (PTI): Identifying HAL as its "main partner" in the multirole combat aircraft deal, France's Dassault Aviation has said it will set up a joint venture company with Reliance Industries to work on the USD 10 billion Rafale project.

It said the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is the "main partner" of the French firm in the Indian contract, which is one of the biggest aircraft deals in the world. The French company's Rafale fighter aircraft was shortlisted by India last year.

"We have a special partnership with Reliance company. It as a private company wants to be in defence sector and we are supporting this partnership...

"We will create JV company with Reliance in India," Dassault's Chief Executive Officer Eric Trappier told PTI here.

The French firm said the Joint Venture (JV) company would be set up after the deal is signed and expressed the hope that it would be signed within this year itself.

The company would be working with several private and public sector companies in India for completing the contract needs, Trappier said.

Asked about reports over Dassault seeking a bigger role for any Indian company in the production phase of the aircraft, he said there was "no confusion" on the issue and that his company was free to decide on its partners as stated by the IAF and the Defence Ministry.

The Dassault CEO said RIL would be its partner and would help it in managing a supply chain and project management of the programme and "they will help us to be in India".

Dassault Aviation's Rafale aircraft was shortlisted by India early last year as it choice for procuring 126 Medium- Multirole Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA).

The French fighter had edged out five other aircraft including American F-16 and F-18, Russian MiG 35 and European Eurofighter to bag the contract.8th Feb

HAL will be 'main partner' in Rafale aircraft deal: Dassault - Brahmand.com

 

[kingdurgaking]

Of course not, just like a Silent Hornet or Silent Eagle won't be equal to F22 or F35, but that doesn't mean the earlier would be useless right? And they don't have to be equal, because they won't be used for the same roles anymore, but in roles where they can play out there advantages.

The one that suits my requirements at best! I have a smartphone now and which to have my old slider back, because as a phone it was much better than any smartphone today. Longer standby, better micro, easier to write messages..., it simply suited my requirements more and if it didn't broke down, I would have never replaced it anytime soon, especially not with an Iphone

The point remains, for IAF there is no fighter to replace for AMCA, there is no operational advantage through AMCA, there is no cost benefit by developing AMCA... so no need for AMCA.
Basically the same reasons why IAF don't need HALs HTT40 now, they have the Pilatus now, the HTT 40 won't add any operational advantages, developing it will cost IAF more than simply procuring more Pilatus.

Where? I was always talking about IAF and their situation in future

True but the advantage gets depleted as time passes because more capable threats are evolving .. thats why US Navy , USAF are looking for new fighters and have put requirements for the NGAD also..

The one suits your requirement is right so for how long.. you will definitely buy one in few years spending more than the current one.. but not upgrade by spending equal money... Similarly IAF is a customer who wants something out of the box.. where as strategic planners and bureaucrats are the one who will see the whole picture.. it has to be a win-win situation for the money they are spending.. that is need for both development of country as well as IAF... In case of HTT-40 IAF said no.. yeah they dont want to spend more from there budget and wait for it for next few years.. because they dont have anything to train... This is because of the situation i have told you in my previous post.. instead if you had continued from marut i am sure HTT-40 would be flying now.. It is a utter shame of IAF to ditch .. there are some marut which had been retired only by flying single digit flying hours.. if GOI and IAF had done some proper planning things wound not be what it is right now.. we have no expertise nor man power now because of the mistake done at that time.. this should not happen... other wise aero space will be a deprecated syllabus...

For argument sake which is never going to happen ... lets say france and Russia ditched us ... what will you do?... then IAF will not even have something like AMCA.. it will put the entire country is risk... rather than seeing things for present we have to see things on all dimensions .. we have to be self reliant ... one day or other we have to stand on our own leg... thats why i iterate AMCA development is must .... it becomes a success or failure it is different.. atleast we should give a try ....

i mentioned france because you support UCAV more than manned fighters.... UCAV is good but it carries a danger.. it will not completely suit our needs... it will be useful in some areas ...

 

[sancho]

True but the advantage gets depleted as time passes because more capable threats are evolving .. thats why US Navy , USAF are looking for new fighters and have put requirements for the NGAD also..

But that are US requirements and threat perceptions, not Indian! The most deadly threat to India will be J20, which is why we develop FGFA, anything below that, be it J11, J10, J15, JF17, F16s will be easily handled by LCA, Rafale and MKIs, with appropriate capabilities and numbers.

The one suits your requirement is right so for how long..

Till 2030 at least, because only then we will have to look for a replacement of the MKI and THEN, there might be a requirement for either a light or a medium class stealth fighter, but that is still a decade after AMCAs possible arrival.
If we would do such a project for once with a little bit of logic, the real requirements of the forces in mind + according to our our capabilities. It would go like this:

- N-LCA Tech demo program only, to learn basics about navalising
- learn as much as possible from FGFA development (NG techs) and Rafale production (modern production standards)

=> AMCA developed for IN and possibly export customers, with Dassault as a consulting partner for design and navalising (Brazil, or S. Africa as possible partners of the project and export customers)


When we have done that, we can develop a 5.5 or maybe 6th gen replacement for MKI later, since we learned and gained experience by then and since there would be a real requirement. What we see today instead, is the total chaos again, out of the wrong reasons.

i mentioned france because you support UCAV more than manned fighters.... UCAV is good but it carries a danger.. it will not completely suit our needs... it will be useful in some areas ...

I don't want us to go with France on UCAVs, but with Israel. They have the know how, but don't have the money, we lack the know how, but have the money and a suitable engine. It would be a perfect chance to go for a joint AURA and HALE dorne development, based on Kaveri.
And drones will take over all areas, where they will be more effective than manned fighters. For the rest we have 4 typed of fighters for the next 30 to 50 years.

 

[Abingdonboy]

 

[IND151]

No Rafale, nuclear deals during Hollande visit | idrw.org