Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Storm Force]

Conwordus

If Indians can pay 4billion for C17 X 10 or $3 billion for AIRCRAFT CARRIER or $1 billion for AKULA SB

i am certain they will find $15 billion for 126 advanced MMRCA planes

 

[conworldus]

7 Years back the present EFT wasnt available.. flight trials happened last year.. check ur brains.. consult a psychiatrist.

Please, Eurofighter was inducted in 2003... 7 years is how long it took the JF-17 from development to service.

Look, I am not interested in India bashing. I am curious how India wants to wrap this up. News are apparently worthless now. Kickbacks is definitely there. I mean, how many things can you do in India without giving kickbacks? It is also true that India is very short on funds. The crisis has hit India hard.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Please, Eurofighter was inducted in 2003... 7 years is how long it took the JF-17 from development to service.

Look, I am not interested in India bashing. I am curious how India wants to wrap this up. News are apparently worthless now. Kickbacks is definitely there. I mean, how many things can you do in India without giving kickbacks? It is also true that India is very short on funds. The crisis has hit India hard.

The MMRCA project in its present form has only been going on 3-4 years, the decade time frame is an utter myth. Added to that taking only 1-2 years to flight/ weapons test and conduct theoretical analysis of 6 of the most advanced fighters on the planet is very impressive for which the IAF has been highly commended by domestic and foreign analysts. Additionally the technical process conducted by the IAF has been highly praised, given the sheer scale of the task given to them ( there were something like 7,000,000 pages of technical info to digest not to mention 200+ technical parameters IAF had outlined and selection board had to apply these to the participating a/c) they performed exceptionally and efficientally. The IAF judged all the ac on technical worth and presented the 2 ac (EFT, Rafele) who closest matched the IAF's exacting standards. The MoD consequently stated the final decision will be made purely on a technical/cost basis based on IAF recommendations. As the IAF (and Indian armed forces as a whole) are notoriously incorruptible, so you tell me where is the room for kickbacks? not to mention new stringent anti-corruption rules by the MoD for defence procurement not to mention the scale of this program and public exposure would mean there was sufficient deterrent to keep this corruption-free.


I'd like to see you do a better job.

 

[conworldus]

If the Indian armed forces are clean, why is India buying the Russian second hand carrier at double the price of a new one? Are you sure India was just being a bad negotiator?

The 6 fighter jets are not development projects. They are finished aircraft! Unless you need to test the reliability, it really doesn't take over a month or so to test all the parameters of a finished aircraft. The rest is just up for bureaucracy. Issuing tons of parameters is the best way to make money. A corrupt system is always the most complicated system, from which you can extort money for every rule, you know.

Well, in the end, I am just throwing some suspicion. I mean, who else in the world take so long to buy an aircraft? The RFI was issued in 2001, over a decade ago.

The MMRCA project in its present form has only been going on 3-4 years, the decade time frame is an utter myth. Added to that taking only 1-2 years to flight/ weapons test and conduct theoretical analysis of 6 of the most advanced fighters on the planet is very impressive for which the IAF has been highly commended by domestic and foreign analysts. Additionally the technical process conducted by the IAF has been highly praised, given the sheer scale of the task given to them ( there were something like 7,000,000 pages of technical info to digest not to mention 200+ technical parameters IAF had outlined and selection board had to apply these to the participating a/c) they performed exceptionally and efficientally. The IAF judged all the ac on technical worth and presented the 2 ac (EFT, Rafele) who closest matched the IAF's exacting standards. The MoD consequently stated the final decision will be made purely on a technical/cost basis based on IAF recommendations. As the IAF (and Indian armed forces as a whole) are notoriously incorruptible, so you tell me where is the room for kickbacks? not to mention new stringent anti-corruption rules by the MoD for defence procurement not to mention the scale of this program and public exposure would mean there was sufficient deterrent to keep this corruption-free.


I'd like to see you do a better job.

 

[Alphacharlie]

MRCA - Offically Tender Launched 2007

Note - Before an Tender is issues one has to create Hype for requirement of a Weapon system. This happens every where. 5 Years for evaluation and discussion. Be rest assured the deal will be closed any time now.

India is Buying a second Hand Carrier because :-
a) We need a Power Projection system Immediately.
b) Gorshkov is available at much cheaper price. Yes do, concede there has been price escalations. Note Same carrier in West will cost in range of 3-5 Billion Dollars
c) We Got "MONEY"

 

[sancho]

Try to build instead of buying. Saving money instead of receiving kickbacks. Don't take western support for granted , china is not fruit cake.

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about! China is spending money without any limit and where is the benefit in engine development? Nowhere, you have the same problems just like we have with our engine developments. That's why China still needs to buy engines from Russia and India from western countries. Money isn't equal to decades of experience and know how and that's why China still needs to redesign or base developments on foreign designs, just like India needs foreign countries to participate on own developments.
Btw, redesigning Su 27s and 33s will not improve Chinese industry, just like it wouldn't help Indian industry to stick with using older designs only. A good example for this is, that China needed access to the Su 33s and the carrier of the Ukraine, before you couldn't go for J15 or for the development of own carriers. All the money you had or invested didn't help you to develop it on your own or any faster right? India instead developed N-LCA or IAC 1, with foreign consultancy partners or ToT and that is they key in MMRCA that you didn't understood yet.

We want to pay more for foreign MMRCAs not only because we want new fighters, but to get latest ToT, JVs and co-developments with foreign companies, because that improves our industry at the same time too!

 

[sancho]

Some interesting points from a Swiss journalist about their competition:

The swiss evaluation had ten modules. The Rafale won the two flight modules (flight tests + projected flight capabilities).

The Rafale also won the module about the ability to maintain a an alert status during a long period, and the module about military cooperation.

Rafale News: Switzerland, Dassault strikes back


Which once again would confirm superiority over EF in the A2A field, although many people "thinks" that the EF is much better in this field with it's bigger radar and the higher engine thrust.


Recap:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-420.html#post2344685

 

[Shaurya]

If the Indian armed forces are clean, why is India buying the Russian second hand carrier at double the price of a new one? Are you sure India was just being a bad negotiator?

The 6 fighter jets are not development projects. They are finished aircraft! Unless you need to test the reliability, it really doesn't take over a month or so to test all the parameters of a finished aircraft. The rest is just up for bureaucracy. Issuing tons of parameters is the best way to make money. A corrupt system is always the most complicated system, from which you can extort money for every rule, you know.

Well, in the end, I am just throwing some suspicion. I mean, who else in the world take so long to buy an aircraft? The RFI was issued in 2001, over a decade ago.

LOL here comes another paid CCP troll , eager to show his great china's superiority, LOL. and by the way, for a junk like JF-17 (a copy of russian plane) it shouldn't have taken more than 3 years, that too the process began in 2003 (lots of technology available to china)...

and why are you worried about negotiation?? there are people out there who know what they are doing, we don't have a habit of stealing other country's designs and making cheap copies.. R&D costs more than a ready made submarine, besides we wanted this urgently and hence it was bought from Russia... atleast we respect other country's product and BUY them china doesn't even do that

 

[Abingdonboy]

If the Indian armed forces are clean, why is India buying the Russian second hand carrier at double the price of a new one? Are you sure India was just being a bad negotiator?

The 6 fighter jets are not development projects. They are finished aircraft! Unless you need to test the reliability, it really doesn't take over a month or so to test all the parameters of a finished aircraft. The rest is just up for bureaucracy. Issuing tons of parameters is the best way to make money. A corrupt system is always the most complicated system, from which you can extort money for every rule, you know.

Well, in the end, I am just throwing some suspicion. I mean, who else in the world take so long to buy an aircraft? The RFI was issued in 2001, over a decade ago.

What a vague and inaccurate response. India is paying the increased price because the initial price assessment was very sloppy and superficial, it was not until upgrades were significantly underway that a true scale of the disrepair was gauged. Not to mention the shipyard has effectively paid for expansion of the yard by Indian finance. Once all the issues were realised India had already forked out significant treasure and was some years down the road, so India had the choice of walking away and losing significant money and waiting many more years to find other replacements or carrying on with the process. And if there were any unscrupulous tactics (as you are suggesting) wouldn't they be on the Russian side and not India's fault?


Regarding the selection process, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. We are talking about the biggest defence deal of the decade and the process of evaluation and testing is extremely arduous especially given the IAF's exceedingly high standards and the unique challenges associated with operating in India. It was bound to take a significant time period. The fact no competitor/commentator has claimed foul play (including any of the disgruntled axed competitors) speaks volumes. If there was even the sniff of corruption there is no doubt the players would have jumped on it immediately and created a massive s**t storm.



None of your points discredits the Indian armed forces, they did their job, ( and of course politics is always going to play a part) they are known for their professionalism and incorruptible nature. Do your homework.

 

[conworldus]

Exactly. Another Indian resorting to personal attack/slandering.

LOL here comes another paid CCP troll , eager to show his great china's superiority, LOL. and by the way, for a junk like JF-17 (a copy of russian plane) it shouldn't have taken more than 3 years, that too the process began in 2003 (lots of technology available to china)...

and why are you worried about negotiation?? there are people out there who know what they are doing, we don't have a habit of stealing other country's designs and making cheap copies.. R&D costs more than a ready made submarine, besides we wanted this urgently and hence it was bought from Russia... atleast we respect other country's product and BUY them china doesn't even do that

 

[Black Widow]

Please, Eurofighter was inducted in 2003... 7 years is how long it took the JF-17 from development to service.

Look, I am not interested in India bashing.

Thanks for your interest. But AFAIK No country can make world class fighter planes in 10-15 years time span, If they are claiming so then there could be only 2 possibilities
a) They have stolen the design and technology and made cheap rip-off
2. or, they are lying.

FC1 is totally different story, I have seen ppl are prejudiced over LCA while they forget the History of FC1.

Project Sabre II was an attempt to develop a low-cost multi-role combat aircraft based on an existing design, the Chengdu F-7M (a Chinese derivative of the MiG-21). The project was initiated by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and the Grumman Aerospace Corporation was contracted to work with specialists from the PAF and China to define and develop the concept. The PAF had left the project by March 1989 because it was considered uneconomic.[2] [3] In November 1988 it was reported that Grumman and CATIC would begin a new study to upgrade the F-7M into the Super 7.[4] Grumman pulled out when the United States placed sanctions on China after the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989. China continued with the project until it was re-branded as the FC-1 in the early 1990s.

I get very hurt when I see the time line calculation of LCA. When you calculate LCA timeline you start from this incident "1983:-DRDO obtained permission to initiate a programme to design and develop a Light Combat Aircraft". But while calculating time line of FC1 you forget the history of FC1. Leave this apart.

FC1 is considered as scrap design of MiG33 by aviation enthusiasts. Its is not hidden that Mikoyan Actively participated in Design phase of FC1. And truth is We can make plane like FC1 in 10-15 years without any rip-off, but we can not make EFT or Rafael. EFT and Rafael are generation ahead of LCA or FC1.

Having said that I agree with your suggestion that India should focus more on home made products. We have Made LCA, our AMCA will not take that much time coz we have many subsystems ready.

 

[Jason bourne]

No Deal Before March, But MMRCA Lowest Bidder "Soon": Minister

The Indian M-MRCA fighter deal won't be signed before the financial year draws down, Indian defence minister AK Antony told reporters in Delhi today, but confirmed that the lowest bidder would be declared "soon". It had been near certain that the results of the toss-up between bids by Dassault and EADS would be announced this month, though it now appears to have slipped into February...

 

[Shaurya]

Exactly. Another Indian resorting to personal attack/slandering.

didn't like the taste of your own medicine??

 

[Bl[i]tZ]

The government will not sign a multi-billion dollar deal to buy fighter jets before this fiscal year ending in March, defence minister AK Antony told reporters on Tuesday.

However, New Delhi will "soon" announce the lowest bidder for the contract worth about $11 billion, two defence ministry sources told Reuters separately.

Two European contenders are left in the race to sell India more than a 100 fighter jets and help revamp the country's creaking defence equipment in line with its rising global clout.

Still in the fray are Eurofighter, which makes the Typhoon fighter jet, and a four-nation consortium of EADS, representing Germany and Spain, Britain's BAE Systems and Italy's Finmeccanica.

Their competitor is France's Dassault, which makes the Rafale plane.

No fighter jet deal before end March: Antony - Hindustan Times

 

[Abhishek_]

new thread is a waste. post in the sticky