Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Yeti]

Im sure everyone has seen this video before the bit about the wings able to take the weight of 35 VW golf cars is remarkable

 

[Yeti]

Lets think about it in a 30 years Total Life Cycle of the fighter aircraft. Which will be better to trust.. Single or Multiple countries.

France shafted us on the Mirage upgrade deal and today we have news that the Maitri deal with the French has fallen through.
The way the economies are going in EU they need this deal like a shot in the arm and will give more in terms of off-sets.

 

[StrikeForce]

Thats where TOT is helpful, India can manufacture the parts under license by itself.

Please tell me even if its completely transferred, Do you think India will have all manufacturing units which can produce all the items incl nuts and bolts for the fighter. Best example is Bofors had 100% technology transfer and yet not made even single gun in India. Worse, they were not even aware until recently.

Bofors reloaded: Defence ministry stung again

As the military top brass desperately look around for solutions to the crippling shortage of artillery guns, they stumbled upon the fact that India actually has the entire drawings of the Bofors guns, and had paid for the transfer of technology to manufacture the gun in India. But the Ordnance Factory Board sat on the drawings all these years, never attempting to make the gun in India.

I am not saying, India might not use the transfer technology effectively. But there will be a share of manufacturing hubs across countries and each will make their own supply.

And to my knowledge, India herself did not ask for 100% ToT in their RFP's. Anyone knows exact percentage of ToT request in MMRCA deal.

 

[Yeti]

Video quality is poor but you can see how important EADS will be for the future of our defence needs and how we can build a partnership with the Euro countries.

 

[kingdurgaking]

Lower RCS is lower RCS does not matter if it is 5th gen or 3rd gen the concept still is the same.

As for being sanction proof what makes you think the EF in the future will have sanctions?

you are wrong dude.. lower RCS != lower RCS.... a 5m2 RCS is enough for taking a radar lock well over 100 KM... and if you add a couple of missile the RCS will be shooting more than 5m2... The Euro Zones except France take decision and will line themselves with US... France is the only country which has a independent policy and are neutral...

 

[Yeti]

you are wrong dude.. lower RCS != lower RCS.... a 5m2 RCS is enough for taking a radar lock well over 100 KM... and if you add a couple of missile the RCS will be shooting more than 5m2... The Euro Zones except France take decision and will line themselves with US... France is the only country which has a independent policy and are neutral...

Im speaking about the RCS of the plane and from what I have read online the EF is the lower of the two.

France and Germany are very close partners in the economic sense and both are Euro currency countries.

Check out this PDF if you have not already done so its got alot of info and is pretty intresting:

http://carnegieendowment.org/files/dogfight.pdf

---------- Post added at 06:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:05 PM ----------

Eurofighter: *Carbon Fibre Composites

The airframe surface area is made of 70% Carbon Fibre Composites (CFCs), 15% lightweight alloys and titanium, 12% Glass Reinforced Plastics (GRP) and 3% other materials. In other words, metals make up only 15% of the materials used in building a Eurofighter Typhoon.

In tandem with the aerodynamically unstable design, these strong but lightweight materials mean that the weight and size of the airframe and engine are 10 - 20% smaller and 30% lighter, than they would otherwise have been. This not only means that the aircraft has a reduced radar signature but is also stealthy.

 

[StrikeForce]

France shafted us on the Mirage upgrade deal and today we have news that the Maitri deal with the French has fallen through.
The way the economies are going in EU they need this deal like a shot in the arm and will give more in terms of off-sets.

Yes, Rightly said we can negotiate with Dassault for the best deal. Even French govt needs this deal done to survive their defence industry.

 

[kingdurgaking]

I know all about the UAE tender and if the Rafale suits you so be it but we do not need to customise the EF or the Rafale to carry nukes in the first place.

We are moving away from the old days of sanctions, times have changed and Europe wants to have a strategic relationship with us moving away from a buyer/seller one.

Yes true we have move old days.. but do you know how many labs are still struggling to get the required hardware???? don't think all that glitters are gold... we have come a long way because of sanctions.. and the labs are still complain still there are restrictions..

secondly coming to carry nukes... customization is always there.. because the s/w developed by india will not be compatible with French or Euro... if it is compatible.. then it can be jammed.. so customization is always there in all the product..

 

[Yeti]

Even with its current underpowered engine, the Rafale’s aerodynamic
performance is excellent. Its sustained turning performance is comparable to
that of the Eurofi ghter and the MiG-35, but poorer than the F-16 (without
conformal fuel tanks) and the F/A-18, not to mention the Gripen. The Rafale
maneuvers best at low altitudes and slow speeds, but whether its opponents will
oblige it by fi ghting in this regime remains an open question. Its instantaneous
turn rates, however, are spectacular—in fact, far better than any of the other
MMRCA competitors—which makes it a formidable opponent in any
tactical situation when a sharp turn of the nose provides a fi ring advantage.

In such situations, however,
the Rafale also bleeds speed
dramatically. Th is could put it
at a disadvantage when facing
opponents with greater energy
reserves. In fact, the Rafale
probably has the highest bleed
rates of any MMRCA contestant
at any altitude.

---------- Post added at 06:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:14 PM ----------

Yes true we have move old days.. but do you know how many labs are still struggling to get the required hardware???? don't think all that glitters are gold... we have come a long way because of sanctions.. and the labs are still complain still there are restrictions..

secondly coming to carry nukes... customization is always there.. because the s/w developed by india will not be compatible with French or Euro... if it is compatible.. then it can be jammed.. so customization is always there in all the product..

Some sactions are still in place don't believe all you heard when Obama said he will lift most of them, it still needs clearance on a case per case basis

---------- Post added at 06:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:16 PM ----------

Typhoon in air exercises conducted with the Royal Air Force and has been
favorably impressed by its performance. In the aftermath of the MMRCA
fl y-off s, a variety of stories appeared in the Indian press suggesting that the
Typhoon was in fact the IAF’s fi rst choice as far as all six competitors were
concerned.61 Th is conclusion is not implausible. Out of all the aircraft, the
Typhoon conformed most closely to the Request for Proposals, and in a purely
technical sense, it arguably remains the most sophisticated airplane in the
mix—at least in its fully mature confi guration, which is still gestating.
Th is engine output, along with its canard-coupled cropped delta-wing
airframe, enables it to achieve superb transonic maneuver as well as excellent
supersonic dash performance. In fact, the Eurofi ghter remains the only
aircraft among the MMRCA competitors to have demonstrated some sort of
supercruise capability (though this capability falls far short of the sustained
supercruise capability of the F-22A and the F-35). It also exhibits striking short
takeoff and landing performance.
Th e Typhoon’s integration of sensors is also remarkable.

Like the Rafale, the Typhoon “compensates” for the current lack of an
operational AESA radar with a superb IRST system—possibly the world’s
best—called the Passive Infra-Red Airborne Tracking Equipment (PIRATE).
Th e PIRATE system is capable of detecting targets at distances approaching
that of conventional radars. It combines a long-range IRST sensor operating
in the long-wave infrared band with a FLIR thermal imager that is capable of
passively searching, tracking and designating targets for weapons launch. All
system data is seamlessly integrated with the information collected by other
sensors to provide the pilot with a unifi ed track for each target.

Where sustained turn rate, for example, is concerned, the Typhoon is superior
to the MiG-35 and the Rafale, but yet cannot match the Gripen, which beats it
and all other aircraft irrespective of altitude.

Th e Typhoon’s instantaneous turn performance is
far better than the MiG-35 and the Gripen and comparable to the F-16IN
(without conformal tanks) and F/A-18E/F at all altitudes, but inferior to the
Rafale the closer both aircraft are to sea level. Th e Typhoon’s bleed rates are
high, comparable to the Rafale and the F/A-18E/F at all altitudes, but inferior
to the Gripen and the F-16IN (even when the latter fl ies with its conformal
fuel tanks).

 

[kingdurgaking]

Im speaking about the RCS of the plane and from what I have read online the EF is the lower of the two.

France and Germany are very close partners in the economic sense and both are Euro currency countries.

Check out this PDF if you have not already done so its got alot of info and is pretty intresting:

http://carnegieendowment.org/files/dogfight.pdf

---------- Post added at 06:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:05 PM ----------

Eurofighter: *Carbon Fibre Composites

The airframe surface area is made of 70% Carbon Fibre Composites (CFCs), 15% lightweight alloys and titanium, 12% Glass Reinforced Plastics (GRP) and 3% other materials. In other words, metals make up only 15% of the materials used in building a Eurofighter Typhoon.

In tandem with the aerodynamically unstable design, these strong but lightweight materials mean that the weight and size of the airframe and engine are 10 - 20% smaller and 30% lighter, than they would otherwise have been. This not only means that the aircraft has a reduced radar signature but is also stealthy.

I guess this is a misconception here.... All you are taking is RCS in clean configuration.. but when you load something on the body or under the wing.. the RCS increases tremendously .... for (e.g.) the RCS of F-22 was more than 1M2 when it was loaded with a camera under its body during a exercise... the was done to deliberately to increase its RCS.... then think about loading a missile with FINS which are perpendicular to the body and has lot of reflective surface....

while Rafale worked perfectly against Libya the same can be said when it enters Pakistan Air space or any country of equal power... it all depends on situation...

 

[kingdurgaking]

Some sactions are still in place don't believe all you heard when Obama said he will lift most of them, it still needs clearance on a case per case basis

Yes this is what i am trying to explain him... as he believes the other way... But Sanctions has helped as a lot... so when we have our own aspiration and when we have to safeguard ourself.. nukes are important.. and we are not a permanent UNSC to do what ever we like.... until then we have to consider sanctions..

 

[Yeti]

I guess this is a misconception here.... All you are taking is RCS in clean configuration.. but when you load something on the body or under the wing.. the RCS increases tremendously .... for (e.g.) the RCS of F-22 was more than 1M2 when it was loaded with a camera under its body during a exercise... the was done to deliberately to increase its RCS.... then think about loading a missile with FINS which are perpendicular to the body and has lot of reflective surface....

while Rafale worked perfectly against Libya the same can be said when it enters Pakistan Air space or any country of equal power... it all depends on situation...

You know I really do not mind if the Rafale or EF wins the deal as I like them both but one point that Jagjitnatt made got me thinking.

If God forbid we got into a future conflict with China we will have to face Chinese J-10, J-11, J-15, J-16, J-20 etc across the himalayas

What fighter would you want to face them in BVR engagement the Rafale or the EF? I would take the EF and that's the only reason why.

 

[StrikeForce]

Eurofighter is more heavier than Rafale , Rafale carries more than EF

Some stats:


Aircraft: Dassault Rafale[48] Eurofighter Typhoon[49][50]

Manufacturer: Dassault Aviation Eurofighter GmbH

Length: 15.27 m 15.96 m
(50.1*ft) (52*ft 5 in)

Wingspan: 10.80 m 10.95 m
(35.4*ft) (35*ft 11 in)

Height: 5.34 m 5.28 m
(17.4*ft) (17*ft 4 in)

Wing area: 45.7 m² 50.0 m²
(492*ft²) (538*ft²)

Empty weight: 9,500*kg 11,000*kg
(20,940*lb) (24,250*lb)

Maximum payload: 9,500*kg 7,500*kg
(21,000*lb) (16,500*lb)

Maximum Takeoff
Weight*(MTOW): 24,500*kg 23,500*kg
(54,000*lb) (51,800*lb)

Powerplant: 2×*SNECMA M88-2 2×*Eurojet EJ200
Thrust: 50*kN each 60*kN each
• Dry thrust: (11,250*lbf) (13,500*lbf)
• Afterburner thrust: 75*kN each 90*kN each
(17,000*lbf) (20,250*lbf)

Fuel:*• Internal 4,700*kg 4,996*kg[68]
*********• External 7,500*kg

Ferry range: 3,700+ *km 3,790*km[72]
***• Unrefueled:
***• Extl. tanks

Combat radius: 1,800*km 1,390*km on air defence with 10-min loiter[73]
Service ceiling: 17,000 m 19,812 m
(56,000*ft) (65,000*ft)

Rate of climb: 305*m/s 315*m/s
(60,000*ft/min) (62,000*ft/min)

Thrust/weight: 1.13 1.18

 

[Yeti]

Yes this is what i am trying to explain him... as he believes the other way... But Sanctions has helped as a lot... so when we have our own aspiration and when we have to safeguard ourself.. nukes are important.. and we are not a permanent UNSC to do what ever we like.... until then we have to consider sanctions..

Sanctions shafted us on LCA in some ways but in other ways it will make us more determined.

But I do not agree that we will get sanctions again the world had changed alot since 9/11 and one must remember sanctions works both ways and America wants us to open our market like the FDI in retail to let firms like walmart in.

 

[StrikeForce]

You know I really do not mind if the Rafale or EF wins the deal as I like them both but one point that Jagjitnatt made got me thinking.

If God forbid we got into a future conflict with China we will have to face Chinese J-10, J-11, J-15, J-16, J-20 etc across the himalayas

What fighter would you want to face them in BVR engagement the Rafale or the EF? I would take the EF and that's the only reason why.

Even EF cant match its numbers...

Remember somewhere Sancho made a point yesterday or day before. Its not that for Dogfight. We should be effectively destroy at their bases even before its takeoff.

See if A2G with BVR capabilities Rafale is the best not EF and this needs very swift action and only Rafale with its current capability can pursue that.

If its a Dogfight, then Chinese can out number anything India buys or produces by itself.

I hope you agree...