Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Hello_10]

First of all, weapon deals are always additional deals and not included in the procurment or upgrades of fighters.

Secondly, MoD knew the cost of the fighters before they shortlisted the most expensive fighters in the competitions, which logically tells us, that no matter what they have no problem with the unit cost of the EF or Rafale.

Thirdly, former IAF Chief Naik stated that the lifecycle cost is more important than the unit cost, which is one reason why neither the Mig had a chance, nor more heavy class Flankers will be procured instead of MMRCAs.



You are for Mig 35, upgraded MKI, LCA MK1 and 2, which all doesn't exist today and still call Rafale a paper Tiger?

Once again, since there are still people who missed that some of the most important requirements of MMRCA are, ToT and offsets, but neither upgraded MKI, nor LCA will get India this. Also IAF wants alternative weapons to the Russian/Indian weapon package that the LCA, Mig 29 SMT/K and MKIs mainly will use.

MKIs and in future FGFAs will remain Indias prime fighters, but in addition to them and till LCA will be ready for opertational service, western fighters are needed and MoD/GoI combined the procurement with getting additional advantages for India. That's why MMRCA is important and why we are ready to pay higher prizes if we get enough in return too!

your First point, did I say "weapon deals includes in the procurement or upgrades of fighters."?, I just said, IAF mustn’t pay more than $12.6bn for 126, either for EFT or even Rafale, including establishing infrastructure and loaded with missiles also, if they may buy a similar type of aircraft like upgraded SU30MKIs for $100mil as per the recent order of 42. (remember, you dont even have to spend even a single dollar for training on new aircrafts, with having raw to product techs, in case of SU30MKIs and also, as per the current order, production line of MKIs would continue till 2014-15 and you mustn’t close it until you open production line of PAK FA/ FGFA, by probably 2018. so you would order more, at least 63 more, to keep it running till 2017-18?)

Your Second point: we all knew MMRCA for $10bn only while I have increased it to $12.6bn. if you will pay just $100mil to $120mil for 5th gen stealth PAK FA/ FGFA from 2018 onwards, then how it is advisable to pay around $150mil each for a 4th gen like Rafale or EFT, as the deal may well rise to $18bn to $20bn for just 126 MMRCA aircrafts.

Third point, hey man how much will you exactly pay for maintenance cost, with adding difference of maintenance cost of Mig35 to Rafale, it would additional $10mil only while a Mig35/ Mig29VOT would cost hardly $50mil to $55mil with already having full infrastructure of Mig29s? and don’t forget, Mig35 ticked most of the boxes with EFT/ Rafale and they lost points in engine test only. The reason why IN ordered 29 more Mig29s for IAC-1 in 2010?

Your Forth point that, “Mig 35, upgraded MKI, LCA MK1 and 2, which all doesn't exist today and still call Rafale a paper Tiger?”

and here, Rafale, the super star of MMRCA, "Paper Tiger", is widely called the best aircraft among the MMRCA deal while it hasn’t wont even a single order till now and their only hope is this MMRCA deal which may give them publicity? otherwise, none would buy it, specially after 5-6 years from now as US’s friends will buy F35, Russian friends will buy PAK FA and that of China J20, and will it make sense to pay the same price for a 4th gen aircraft like Rafale in the time of 5th gen, after 2020?

And, you don’t know Mig35/ Mig29VOT? It’s the best version of Mig29 with AESA radar?

About ‘upgraded MKI’ and LCA mk2 please read news below. As, I believe if IAF doesn’t want Mig35 then they would pay $12.6bn and buy 63 upgraded SU30MKIs ($6.3bn) + 150 LCA mk2 ($6.3), in place of paying more than $12.6bn for 126 Rafale or EFT. in place of having variety of aricrafts, you would have expertise on those few for which you have techs from raw to product, LCA & SU30MKI.

While the Cabinet Committee on Security had taken a decision on buying 42 additional Sukhoi MKIs last year, negotiations have taken longer because India was also keen to include some of the features found in fifth generation fighter aircraft. Finally, the Russian side agreed to upgrade the SU-30 MKIs to its latest version known as ‘Super Sukhoi’ with additional characteristics. The new version is expected to include a new cockpit, an upgraded radar and certain stealth features to avoid radar detection. Significantly, the upgraded Sukhoi-30 MKIs will be able to carry a heavier weapons load, especially the airborne version of the Brahmos cruise missile. India is also looking to upgrade most of its SU-30 MKIs in the long run.

PM visit: India to buy 42 ‘upgraded’ Sukhois - Indian Express

Vendor selection by the IAF for supplying various sub-systems for the Tejas Mk2 too is gathering pace. What has been confirmed thus far is that the two-way airborne operational data-links (ODL) will be supplied by HAL, which, among other systems, will be supplying a newly-designed mission computer (to cater to the increased processing requirements of the new fire-control system and IDAS), the RAM-1701AS radio altimeter, TACAN-2901AJ and DME-2950A tactical air navigation system combined with the ANS-1100A VOL/ILS marker, CIT-4000A Mk12 IFF transponder, COM-1150A UHF standby comms radio, UHF SATCOM transceiver, and the SDR-2010 SoftNET four-channel software-defined radio (working in VHF/UHF and L-band for voice and data communications), and the Bheem-EU brake control/engine/electrical monitoring system, all of which have been developed in-house by the Hyderabad-based Strategic Electronics R & D Centre of HAL. SAGEM Défense Sécurité will supply the Sigma-95N ring laser gyro-based inertial navigation system coupled to a GPS receiver (which is also on board the Su-30MKI and Tejas Mk1). The open-architecture integrated defensive aids suite (IDAS), which has been under joint development by the DRDO’s Bengaluru-based Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE) and Germany-based Cassidian since 2006, will include the AAR-60(V)2 MILDS F missile approach warning system, the EW management computer and Tarang Mk3 radar warning receiver (all to be built by Bharat Electronics Ltd), countermeasures dispenser built by Bharat Dynamics Ltd, and Elettronica of Italy’s Virgilius directional jammers (now being installed on the IAF’s MiG-29UPGs), which make use of active phased-array transmitters for jamming hostile low-band (E-G) and high-band (G-J) emitters. The redesigned digital flight-control computer will be built by BEL, while the HMD chosen is the Dash Mk5 from Elbit Systems. For tactical strike missions, the ‘Tejas’ Mk2 will be equipped with the Litening-3 LDP, supplied by RAFAEL Advanced Defence Systems of Israel. The actuated retractable aerial refuelling probe, mounted on the Tejas Mk2’s starboard cockpit section, will be supplied by UK-based Cobham Mission Equipment.

TRISHUL: Tejas Mk2 MRCA’s R & D Effort Gathers Pace

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

what ever my budget is, APNAY ULLO SEDHAY KARO, it nothing has to do with MMRCA (Cheap Indian Shot)

I was just suggesting at the scale of the deal!

and yes again to remind it was 12bn what was suggested for MMRCS not 15.

Rupee fall jacks up India's arms purchase bill
Unfortunately for us,the cost has escalated to 15 Billion USD.

 

[sancho]

nobody had forgotten the banchmark price , but it was techinal evaluation commite which selected the two finalist and not the MoD or the finance ministry...

The technical commettee is a part of the defence ministy! They evaluated the offsets and the results of IAF trials:

The Long Road to the MMRCA Shortlist

...StratPost recently reported moves by the ministry to amend the DPP to change the offset evaluation process by inviting only vendors shortlisted as technically qualified to submit offset proposals, and get Law Ministry approval to apply them with retrospective effect, so as to ease the amount of work involved in offset evaluation.

The Technical Offsets Evaluation Committee of the Defense Ministry has been struggling to formulate the requirements for the offset proposals that the vendors would have to match, with a series of delays, and still no terms set in black and white...
...The DPP says the Technical Offset Evaluation Committee will ‘examine the technical offset offers and shortlist the vendors meeting the offset obligations’. [The language in the 2008 and 2011 iterations reads: The (Technical Offset Evaluation) Committee will examine the compliance of technical offset offers by the vendors for meeting the offset obligations.]

The Long Road to the MMRCA Shortlist | StratPost

Eurofighter and Rafale finalists in Indian MMRCA competition

...fter global aerospace defence giants Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Saab and MiG have lost out on what was the biggest fighter aircraft deal since the early 1990s the European consortium’s Eurofighter and French Dassault’s Rafale are asked to extend the commercial bids for the 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft that are due to expire on Thursday. The move could be interpreted as ‘down selection’ from six competitors in the $11-Billion deal that is expected to be finalised this fiscal. Sources in the government told The Hindu that the Ministry dispatched the letter, based on the Technical Evaluation Committee’s report. As per the terms of the deal, the competitors would have to show that they have the requisite tie-ups to fulfill the 50-per cent offset clause, which means that half of the value of the deal would have be sourced from Indian companies.

The Indian Air Force had handed over its report to the Ministry last year after rigorous and extensive flight evaluation trials of the six fighter planes bidding for the deal. The sources said the Ministry’s team undertook an elaborate exercise to determine the offset obligations of the competitors, and once the task was complete, the next stage would be determined on the basis of the technical evaluation.

Eurofighter and Rafale finalists in Indian MMRCA competition | Defence Aviation

India to wrap up MMRCA deal in four weeks: IAF Chief

...The Defence Ministry had shortlisted France's Dassault Aviation SA's Rafale and EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon in April

Commercial bids from the two shortlisted vendors were opened on November four, marking the culmination of almost decade-long hunt for India's new mainline fighter.

On the process of selection, the Air Chief said there are a lot of complicated calculations and figures that needed to be checked and re-checked.

India | MMRCA Deal | IAF | Defence Ministry | NAK Browne


Again, MoD shortlisted the fighters and MoD will take the final decision, they knew about the costs of the fighters before the shortlisting, what they didn't knew was how the final comercial bid of the vendors / manufacturer countries will look like.
It's more than funny to claim that they shortlisted the fighters without having an idea if they fit into the budgets. They might even get the first idea about the prices, when the vendors responded to the RFIs and the first chance to reject them was after the response to the RFP and before the trials started. Any fighter that would have been too costly for MoD / GoI, would not have been accepted to enter the trials.

 

[sancho]

May be MoD knowingly included the best & costliest fighters and makes sure that both of them dont come within Benchmark price so that F-35 comes in back..

First of all, the F35 was never in the competition.
Secondly, if MoD or IAF wanted the fighter, they would have directly asked for it to enter the competition and get at least first evaluation datas from LM and US government. Why should they wait so long and start all over again?

simple answer would be... there is a need for medium sized fighters which the IAF has realized when the latest war broke out

That's one reasons, but luckyy don't care much about this simple fact or even official IAF / MoD statements, about diversification of the fleet, importance of lifecycle costs, overdependance on Russia, even about prime requirements of the competition like ToT and offsets. That's why he simply state the same things again and again, but that won't make them more credible right?

 

[kingdurgaking]

First of all, the F35 was never in the competition.
Secondly, if MoD or IAF wanted the fighter, they would have directly asked for it to enter the competition and get at least first evaluation datas from LM and US government. Why should they wait so long and start all over again?



That's one reasons, but luckyy don't care much about this simple fact or even official IAF / MoD statements, about diversification of the fleet, importance of lifecycle costs, overdependance on Russia, even about prime requirements of the competition like ToT and offsets. That's why he simply state the same things again and again, but that won't make them more credible right?

luckyy's facts are right on bench-marking.. but he believes that the deal will be put off but in reality which will not happen as it will jeopardize india's global image.. may be he is influenced by col ajai shukla ji's article... but in case it happens then it will be F-35 's chance...

 

[sancho]

your First point, did I say "weapon deals includes in the procurement or upgrades of fighters."?

Yes:

$12.6bn for 126 aircrafts including building infrastructure, with fully loaded with missiles also.

remember, you dont even have to spend even a single dollar for training on new aircrafts...

Yes we do, if we want alternative weapons, capabilities, ToT, offsets, industrial and political advantages, besides what we get from Russia!
Kargil war, the quality issues of Migs and Russian weapons in the long term, the high operational costs of Russian fighters, the limited useful ToT and offsets that Mig 35 would have given India and no political advantages at all. More than enough clear reasons why we needed to go for new western fighters, besides the Mig 35 being not competitive enough compared to the others fighters.
It was even clear from the first MRCA competition, that this deal will go to a western vendor and that for good reasons!

Your Second point: we all knew MMRCA for $10bn only while I have increased it to $12.6bn. if you will pay just $100mil to $120mil for 5th gen stealth PAK FA/ FGFA from 2018 onwards, then how it is advisable to pay around $150mil each for a 4th gen like Rafale or EFT, as the deal may well rise to $18bn to $20bn for just 126 MMRCA aircrafts.

Because the benefits western MMRCAs brings, are not operational only, but in various fields as mentioned above. Besides, lets wait till Pak Fa is in production first to we calculate the costs, because we know that 5th gen fighters and techs are freaking costly and neither Russia, nor India are known to keep timelines and budgets. The price that is given so far is nothing more than speculation, especially for FGFA, since Russia is likely to buy a low cost version mainly based on Su 35 at the begining.

Third point, hey man how much will you exactly pay for maintenance cost, with adding difference of maintenance cost of Mig35 to Rafale, it would additional $10mil only while a Mig35/ Mig29VOT would cost hardly $50mil to $55mil with already having full infrastructure of Mig29s? and don’t forget, Mig35 ticked most of the boxes with EFT/ Rafale and they lost points in engine test only.

Oh please, more claims? Even Mig 29Ks costs close to $50 millions and you really think that Mig 35, which must be re-designed first, which needs a newly developed AESA radar, which adds TVC and avionics comes just with a $5 million dollar increase? Add the costs for western upgrades that are necessary and and the costs goes up again. Not to forget that there is no other customer other than India, so all upgrade costs would have to be paid by us only and we know that this would be a great chance for Russian companies to increase the price afterwards isn't it?
Generally, there should be no doubt about that Russian fighters needs more maintainance than western fighters, especially the engines needs to be replaced more often, not to forget that TVC increases costs in this field too (one reaons why Russian airforce didn't used it on their Flankers so far).
Not sure what you mean with ticked most of the boxes, but from my point of view Mikoyan wasn't able to keep their promises and that's one reason why the fighter didn't impressed IAF at all. They promised more weaponstations and increased fuel, but there is no version available with bigger wings and additional hardpoints so far. They promised 200Km radar detection, but even at the last Aero India, Phazotron could only state 160Km, not to forget that the radar isn't ready yet (but to be fair, neither is the EF AESA) and has several issues. Lower RCS, more weapons, better avionics that would make it comparable to EF and especially Rafale? Doubtful, since the base design is simply too old to keep up and since the evaluation includes the projection of performance for the next 40 years, it wasn't surprising that the Mig couldn't keep up.

Your Forth point that, “Mig 35, upgraded MKI, LCA MK1 and 2, which all doesn't exist today and still call Rafale a paper Tiger?”

and here, Rafale, the super star of MMRCA, "Paper Tiger", is widely called the best aircraft among the MMRCA deal while it hasn’t wont even a single order till now and their only hope is this MMRCA deal which may give them publicity? otherwise, none would buy it, specially after 5-6 years from now as US’s friends will buy F35, Russian friends will buy PAK FA and that of China J20, and will it make sense to pay the same price for a 4th gen aircraft like Rafale in the time of 5th gen, after 2020?

LOL you replied by stating the same part once again? And that makes it true somehow?

Let me ask you again, you claim Rafale (an operational fighter that will be available in the version offered in MMRCA by the end of this year) to be a paper tiger, compared to LCA MK2 (production start expected in 2015), upg MKI (upgrade not even fixed yet and first induction expected only around 2014 or later) and the Mig 35, that is available only in tech demo versions, based on older Mig 29 airframes?
LCA, upgraded MKIs let alone the Mig that not even Russia wants was exported yet, so how are they better than Rafale that not has been exported either? You are contradicting yourself my friend, from operational terms and the current stage of development, the Rafale is clearly ahead of these fighters and at the end only upg MKI will be operationa and more capable in certain fields than the Rafale F3+.

 

[sancho]

luckyy's facts are right on bench-marking.. but he believes that the deal will be put off but in reality which will not happen as it will jeopardize india's global image.. may be he is influenced by col ajai shukla ji's article... but in case it happens then it will be F-35 's chance...

Not at all, his "facts" are only facts when they suit Russian fighters, which he prefers, so he is more the opposite side of Ajai Shukla.

 

[sancho]

not related to Indian MMRCA but with Euro-fighter.
.
Negotiations with Saudi for 48 Eurofighters hit road block : BAE | idrw.org

WRT EF customers...

...after the reports that RAF wants to sell all their T1s to foreign countries, Germany now offers some of it's remaining T1s (some of them sold to Austria) to Bulgaria now. At the same time, there are reports from Austria, that they want to get rid of their EFs now, because it is clear now that the deal was made by bribery, that they are less capable as promised and too expensive to operate and upgrade for them and Italy already canceled their T3B order, wonder who will be the next to get rid of older versions or new orders.

 

[Hello_10]

[QUOTE sancho;2465430]

Yes:

there is communication prob. i said, you dont need a new production line of a 4th gen aircraft if you may buy a similar type, fit in comparison upgraded SU30MKIs for around $100mil. total cost of 126 MMRCAs, including establishing infrastruture, musn't exceed $12.6bn otherwise it isn't worth going for it. (I didnt say about upgrading it, its different.)

Yes we do, if we want alternative weapons, capabilities, ToT, offsets, industrial and political advantages, besides what we get from Russia!
Kargil war, the quality issues of Migs and Russian weapons in the long term, the high operational costs of Russian fighters, the limited useful ToT and offsets that Mig 35 would have given India and no political advantages at all. More than enough clear reasons why we needed to go for new western fighters, besides the Mig 35 being not competitive enough compared to the others fighters. It was even clear from the first MRCA competition, that this deal will go to a western vendor and that for good reasons!

Mig35 was as capable as F16 block70 and Super Hornet, and it was neck to neck with Rafale/ EFT and lost points in engine test only, (it was the test of different MRCA aircrafts when Mig35 was tested and ticked the boxes, the criterion). IN isn't fool who are buying Mig29k for their new IAC-1, while Mig35 is the best best version of Mig29s.

Because the benefits western MMRCAs brings, are not operational only, but in various fields as mentioned above. Besides, lets wait till Pak Fa is in production first to we calculate the costs, because we know that 5th gen fighters and techs are freaking costly and neither Russia, nor India are known to keep timelines and budgets. The price that is given so far is nothing more than speculation, especially for FGFA, since Russia is likely to buy a low cost version mainly based on Su 35 at the begining.

PAK FA/ FGFA won't exceed $120mil

Oh please, more claims? Even Mig 29Ks costs close to $50 millions and you really think that Mig 35, which must be re-designed first, which needs a newly developed AESA radar, which adds TVC and avionics comes just with a $5 million dollar increase? Add the costs for western upgrades that are necessary and and the costs goes up again. Not to forget that there is no other customer other than India, so all upgrade costs would have to be paid by us only and we know that this would be a great chance for Russian companies to increase the price afterwards isn't it?

Generally, there should be no doubt about that Russian fighters needs more maintainance than western fighters, especially the engines needs to be replaced more often, not to forget that TVC increases costs in this field too (one reaons why Russian airforce didn't used it on their Flankers so far).

Not sure what you mean with ticked most of the boxes, but from my point of view Mikoyan wasn't able to keep their promises and that's one reason why the fighter didn't impressed IAF at all. They promised more weaponstations and increased fuel, but there is no version available with bigger wings and additional hardpoints so far. They promised 200Km radar detection, but even at the last Aero India, Phazotron could only state 160Km, not to forget that the radar isn't ready yet (but to be fair, neither is the EF AESA) and has several issues. Lower RCS, more weapons, better avionics that would make it comparable to EF and especially Rafale? Doubtful, since the base design is simply too old to keep up and since the evaluation includes the projection of performance for the next 40 years, it wasn't surprising that the Mig couldn't keep up.


LOL you replied by stating the same part once again? And that makes it true somehow?

Let me ask you again, you claim Rafale (an operational fighter that will be available in the version offered in MMRCA by the end of this year) to be a paper tiger, compared to LCA MK2 (production start expected in 2015), upg MKI (upgrade not even fixed yet and first induction expected only around 2014 or later) and the Mig 35, that is available only in tech demo versions, based on older Mig 29 airframes?

LCA, upgraded MKIs let alone the Mig that not even Russia wants was exported yet, so how are they better than Rafale that not has been exported either? You are contradicting yourself my friend, from operational terms and the current stage of development, the Rafale is clearly ahead of these fighters and at the end only upg MKI will be operationa and more capable in certain fields than the Rafale F3+.

rest I would like to say few things at the end and close my participation until decision on MMRCA is made, as below:

Today, at about Rs 53 to the dollar, that $15 billion bid translates into Rs 79,500 crore. The two per cent cost of forex hedging is Rs 1,590 crore, taking the bill to Rs 81,090 crore, Rs 15,525 crore more than last October. The MoD is set to pay almost twice the Rs 42,000 crore that was budgeted for the MMRCA.
Rupee fall jacks up India's arms purchase bill

The multi-billion contract to buy 126 fighter jets from one of two European bidders could be worth more than $20bn almost double the original estimate,
http://www.defencenews.in/defence-news-internal.asp?get=new&id=798

This much money isn’t worth wasting for just 126 4th gen multi role aircrafts, on average around $140mil each for expected $17bn to $18bn for 126 MMRCA aircrafts, which would come in production from 2015/16, with adding 3-4 years more for pilots to be trained on them. (and even 5th gen PAK FA would come in production from 2018?) Better invest this much money somewhere else, making roads/ bridges etc.

the Russian side agreed to upgrade the SU-30 MKIs to its latest version known as ‘Super Sukhoi’ with additional characteristics. The new version (of SU30MKI) is expected to include a new cockpit, an upgraded radar (AESA)and certain stealth features to avoid radar detection. Significantly, the upgraded Sukhoi-30 MKIs will be able to carry a heavier weapons load, especially the airborne version of the Brahmos cruise missile. India is also looking to upgrade most of its SU-30 MKIs in the long run.
PM visit: India to buy 42 ‘upgraded’ Sukhois - Indian Express

These upgraded SUMKIs with stealth features would be called bit better than even Rafale, with a more powerful russian AESA radar than current french one for Rafale, and Brahmos missiles, and all these 42 upgraded MKIs for $4.2bn only. And about overdependence on Russia, you aren’t dependent on Russia either for SU30MKIs or PAK FA/ FGFA, you got full techs from raw to product but once you get into the trap of Western suppliers, they will make you dependent on them for techs of at least one type of aircraft of IAF . you will get few tech transfer for MMRCA but they wont let you touch their best techs so easily. You will never have full tech transfer like SU30MKI and PAK FA from any of the Western supplier.

Even China’s top gun is J10s which are just not in comparison with these upgraded MKIs, (with only old SU27, SU30k), and J10s will also do the work for China, more or less. And if you trust in your engineers/ scientists then even your home made multi role LCAs are good enough with mk2 upgrades which would possibly include AESA radar also. (and you will develop this AESA radar for LCAs by help of Russia only, even if they won’t say that they helped IAF to do so ). As, if you are already upgrading 51 mirage2000 for any type of very specialized multi role operations, LCAs will easily do the rest of multi role works

rest I would like to end my contribution until decision on MMRCA is made

thanks and regards

 

[deepakclaw]

(few more days+few more weeks+few more months+few more years+.......n) = MMRCA

just remembering my maths............

 

[sancho]

there is communication prob.

Not on my side! I even quoted your initial post and marked the important part, where you claimed that missiles costs are included in the MMRCA budget, which simply is wrong. So it's rather strange that you missed it, unless you avoided it on purpose.

Since you have no arguments and prefer to just repeat your claims on and on, I reply only to those parts that are new.

These upgraded SUMKIs with stealth features would be called bit better than even Rafale

Stealth features is just a PR term for reduced RCS, which most likely will be achieved by adding more RAM materials and coatings, but no internal weapon bays, shapped airframe, ducted air intake, cranked tailfins...like Pak Fa / FGFA. Upg MKI will have a lower RCS compared to older versions, but won't be in the same league as EF or Rafale in this field!
Same goes for avionics (unless we get something comparable to SPECTRA and DASS from Israel), or weapons (METEOR, AASM, Brimstone, MICA IR, IRIS-T).
As I said, in certain fields, the MMRCAs are better, even compared to upgraded MKIs!

and you will develop this AESA radar for LCAs by help of Russia only

Did you missed that India constantly rejected to include Russian companies or techs into the development of LCA in the last years?

- Russia offered RD 93, we selected GE 404 / 414 and possibly Snecma as an co-development partner
- R77 was supposed to be the prime missile of LCA until ASTRA is ready, we selected DERBY now
- Russia offered joint development of AESA radar based on Zhuk AE, we asked Western countries for co-development
- Russia offered to help at navalising LCA, we prefered US companies and now get assistance of Europeans

rest I would like to end my contribution until decision on MMRCA is made

Thanks, next time less claims and repeats of them and more valid arguments please!

 

[rockstarIN]

Offtopic but Sancho why did we rejected Russian support for LCA, felt it inferior?

 

[sancho]

The Rafale in the home straight to win the Indian market

New Delhi next week will have all the elements to choose which of the French aircraft or the Eurofighter, will equip its Air Force. At stake: the acquisition of 126 fighter planes.

From next week, the timing of the tender for the sale of 126 combat aircraft (M-MRCA project) in the amount initially estimated at $ 12 billion will accelerate. Began November 4, 2011 after the opening of envelopes containing the tenders commercial Dassault and the Eurofighter consortium ( EADS , BAE Systems and Italy's Finmeccanica), the long and tedious work of synthesis of the Indian Air Force (Air Force) on the two bids submitted, should be completed next week. India buys not only a fighter but also the MCO (operational maintenance) and support equipment. Cost of ownership - in clear than the costs of combat aircraft throughout their lives, including in terms of fuel - should be decisive for the contract now valued at $ 20 billion and called "the mother of all business "(" mother of all deals "). A report should be sent in the wake of the Indian Defence Minister, who will forward to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

A country against four

Policy makers to decide based on the operational side of both units and commercial proposal presented by the two manufacturers ... or not.

"The Rafale is supported by a country, by four Eurofighter", said a source familiar with the matter. In this respect, the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, wrote last month on behalf of four European partners in the Eurofighter consortium (Germany, Britain, Italy and Spain) last month at Indian Prime Minister to encourage him to choose Eurofighter, which has yet to experience two failures, one in Oman (in front of F-16 Lockheed Martin) and one in Switzerland where the Gripen has won (the Rafale was also nominated). He also encounters difficulties in Saudi Arabia, Riyadh is showing little appreciation for aircraft delivered.

For now, it seems that the Rafale keeps an operational advantage over the Eurofighter, the Air Force had placed the camera lights to its European rival. However, it is the ink bottle case of commercial offerings. Ideally, the Rafale should be cheaper because in the previous tender, the price was on average between 10% to 15% cheaper than the Eurofighter. Unless, as suggested by some industrial partners in the Rafale, the Eurofighter program's competitors have made great efforts on the price of the unit had to remain competitive. Because according to Indian rules, the bidder the lowest bidder is deemed the winner

Google Übersetzer

 

[BallySingh]

only diplomatic factor goes in the favor of eft.i mean 4 nations point

 

[sancho]

Offtopic but Sancho why did we rejected Russian support for LCA, felt it inferior?

To some extend, look at the issues we had with Russian engine quality, or now with the limited life of Russian missiles, not to forget that the avionics were always considered to be less capable. Indian forces and LCA developers aimed on quality and that's why they prefered western parts and partners.