Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[DacterSaab]

Sancho if we study the map of current Indian Airforce bases we will notice that the MKIs can't be based too close to the borders so we are dependent on Mig-21s for A2A missions which will be replaced by LCAs and Mig27s and JAGs for A2G missions which should be replaced by MMRCA winner. Rafale in it's current version fits the bill perfectly but looses badly on industrial grouds where EF offer is much sweeter and lets not forget in the a fighter purchase is always a political decision

As far as I understand RCS will make a huge difference when fighters are based along the borders and conduct missions in the vicinity here EF has the upper hand also if we are partners we can develop the future capabilities atleast for our fighters and the developers would join in to help reduce the cost.
So i dont see why you are so insistent on current capabilities which will change in the coming years. Our Mig-29s have acquired Ground attack capability now and they were purchased in the 80s.
Potentially the EF is an excellent A2A fighter capable of A2G capabilities so it suits the mindset of our airforce which are Primarily an A2A force not taking A2G work that seriously. Also against some 3000 chinese aircrafts and 400 some PAF aircrafts. I wouldn't blame anyone If even the airforce think they need EFs to Add muscle to our MKI and FGFA fleet.

Also lets not forget that a fighter purchase is always a political decision. So far it doesn't make much difference which jet is chosen I'm happy with the selection process cause we'll get the best from the available list.

But I'm keeping my fingers crossed this is India anythings possible remember the aerial tanker deal I wouldn't be surprised IF EF is chosen then the deal is cancelled due to cost and we end up buying 126 MIG-35s with Zuk-AE and 3d TVC very capable machines. we all remember the aerial tanker deal don't we

 

[brahmastra]

^^ Generally, fighter deployment is purely based on range of the fighter. Sukhoi offers larger range so deployed deep inside country.

 

[tvsram1992]

^^ Generally, fighter deployment is purely based on range of the fighter. Sukhoi offers larger range so deployed deep inside country.

Yes also rafale gives much better range and payload that flankers and since MRCA planes are reduced rcs machines they might be placed at border when compared to sukhois that can be detected easily. Generally advanced planes in our inventory are kept also at border but care will be taken that they are not prone to preemptive attacks .

 

[Imran Khan]

now we should close this thread ?

 

[illusion8]

^^^^ kyon? imra bhai aapko bhi lagne laga hai ki mmrca deal nahin hone wala

 

[rockstarIN]

No in both cases! The EF upgrades offered in MMRCA are not funded yet and as we learned the EF partners actually are only interested in hardly 20% of them and "only" as an upgrade (around 2025) for their T3As. They don't buy T3Bs that they offer to us and their T3As will be nothing else than T2s that are wired to add the upgrades like AESA radar, new avionics, TVC, CFTs and other capabilities in future. The only upgrade the EF partners cleared so far for their T3As are:

Software
wireings
Meteor missile

They also will have Paveway IV LGBs, which will be integrated now into the current version, but that's it! No bunker busters, no cruise missiles, no stand off weapons, no SEAD weapons, no anti ship missile, no real recon pod or additional techs are cleared so far, which means the T3As of the partner countries will still only be useful in A2A and CAS nothing else!

They don't just wait for another export customer, they wait for a partner that can take over their left orders and the fundings to upgrade the EF. That's why they offer us and Japan the partnership in the consortium, because financially the whole EF program is in a bad situation, which the AESA radar development showed. British government itself estimates that the EF would be fully A2G capable only by 2018, if the necessary fundings will be available and that would be the same for IAF if they select this fighter.
There are reasons why the EF might be selected, but from cost and operational terms, the Rafale is the obvious choice for our forces!


.

Sancho, won't IAF think EF just like the MKI way. Understood that EF lacks bunker busters, SEAD, Stand off weapons etc.

Cant we just get the damn good platform of EF and add our Sudrashan, Helina, Brahmos & other friendly nation's weapons on it for strike? the same way we did with MKI?

 

[tvsram1992]

now we should close this thread ?

Yes we need to start rafale news and discussions

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

Yes we need to start rafale news and discussions

Shhhhh.....EF-2000 geeks will kill you ....

 

[rockstarIN]

Shhhhh.....EF-2000 geeks will kill you ....

Whats your guys take on this? what PAF live to face in future from IAF? EF or Rafale..

 

[Storm Force]

BOTH PLANES ARE AWESOME

If rafael wins IAF gets a TRUE MULTI ROLE PLATFORM brilliant in the strike role with spectra steath avionics system and great air to air and low altititude. with meteore ram jey BVR easy to intergrate cause of IAF long mirage2000 history


IF typhoon gets the NOD we get the 2nd best air supremacy fighter on the planet bar F22 RAPTOR. immense high altitide air power really useful over himlayers esp massive PLAAF threat/ Typhoon was built to eat flankers for breakfast ie RUSSIAN COLD WAR THREAT.


Typhoon hass bigger radar more power BUT rafael has better jamming and more stealth/

ITS WIN WIN either way

 

[SQ8]

Whats your guys take on this? what PAF live to face in future from IAF? EF or Rafale..

Its all political now.
No more technical takes here.

 

[sancho]

Sancho if we study the map of current Indian Airforce bases we will notice that the MKIs can't be based too close to the borders so we are dependent on Mig-21s for A2A missions

There is no problem with placing MKI at bases closer to the border:

IAF Sukhois To Get Closer To Pakistan Border

As far as I understand RCS will make a huge difference when fighters are based along the borders and conduct missions in the vicinity here EF has the upper hand

Compared to MKI, most likely, compared to Rafale debatable.

also if we are partners we can develop the future capabilities atleast for our fighters and the developers would join in to help reduce the cost.

No we can't, because most of the "future capabilities" until 2025 are already under development by the EF consortium companies. TVC for example is under development for a decade now, but as long no country pays for the final developments, testing and integration it won't be available. That's the reason why they offered it to India via EF but also for LCA MK2, so we might get ToT, maybe even parts of the production, but can't participate in the development of the TVC tech anymore. Same applies to AESA radar, several avionics, CFTs...
The only section of the EF where India can really be a development partner is the Sea Typhoon, since there were only some studies about it so far and no other partner wants it, otherwise India and Indian companies will be partners in production of the EF, but not in R&D. In other words, they outsource the production to India, but that's what all the vendors offered, without saying we will be partners. So the main advantage of beeing a partner of the EF at this late stage, is actually ToT high techs, working together with many experienced companies and normally some shares if the EF will be exported, but when you look at how often it was rejected, that's not a real argument.
Also, EF upgrades will be developed jointly by all partners, since the costs will be shared. India can only go for special upgrades if the partners agrees and if we take the costs alone.

So i dont see why you are so insistent on current capabilities which will change in the coming years.

Read my last post once again please, because the capabilities of the EF T2 and the new T3A won't change, since the partners didn't cleared any funds for integration of new A2G weapons or necessary techs.
On the other side, Rafale F3+ upgrade which is also on offer to India is fully funded by France, so all new capabilities like upgraded engines, AESA radar, avionics and weapons will be available for us without extra costs.

 

[rockstarIN]

Its all political now.
No more technical takes here.

I asked Pakistani's view on this forum, which jet they wanna see in IAF colours? (off course less capable in your point of view)

 

[SQ8]

I asked Pakistani's view on this forum, which jet they wanna see in IAF colours? (off course less capable in your point of view)

You seem to contradict the statements.
Which jet would be best for the IAF or which jet being in the IAF would benefit Pakistan??

 

[sancho]

Sancho, won't IAF think EF just like the MKI way. Understood that EF lacks bunker busters, SEAD, Stand off weapons etc.

Cant we just get the damn good platform of EF and add our Sudrashan, Helina, Brahmos & other friendly nation's weapons on it for strike? the same way we did with MKI?

No because MKI and FGFA was specially procured by IAF as twin seat versions and with increased focus on beeing a real multi role fighter, not only with A2A in mind. The EF lacks exactly in these fields, because the twin seat version is basically a trainer only and the muti role capablities are very limited so far.
Adding weapons alone isn't enough, the techs needs to be upgraded too and there are some basic design problems with the EF as well.

- centerline station is directly between the gears, which limits the size of payload that can be carried there. That's why the EF can't carry just 1 cruise missile

- it has only 3 wet/heavy stations, which means carrying heavy payloads or a lot of fuel is not possible in deep or heavy strike roles

- it has 13 stations, which looks impressive on paper, but in reality 4 of them can only be used for BVR missiles and since no dedicated pod station is available, one weapon station will be occupied by the LDP. So the use of payload is compromised although it has many stations.

- LDP was integrated to the centerline station, which occupies a wet/heavy station. In strike role with LGBs the 3 heavy stations will be occupied by LDP and fuel tanks, so no bunker buster can be added anymore.

- no real recon pod was integrated yet and it is questionable if a similar pod like the RAF Tornados used would fit on the centerline station


The fact is, without CFTs to increase the ammount of fuel, but more importantly to free some of the heavy stations, the EF can't be used in deep strikes or for attacking bunkers and command posts.