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Not sure what you mean by quoted by EADS, but if we wants to be a partner in the programm, we have to take parts of the development costs of course, they did it in the early development of the fighter, if we (Turky, or Japan) join now, we have to do it with the upgrades, or at least those that we want. According to the SLD report, we want 80% that the other partners don't want, which means that we have to pay for most of this alone, while the other upgrades costs (like AESA radar) will be shared.

Yes that means we will be the owner.. and we will hold the IP for the money we are spending right?.. if we want custom we will only have to spend it.. like MKI where we spent lot of money customizing it.. so MK configurations which has India hands needs India go just like MKM...
 
Thanks for the perspective. It clearly is not as simple as it looks.

Let's hope the Babus who did not see this alarming decrease in Fighter numbers coming, get the best out of this purchase.

It hurts when the french and the Russians charge exorbitant prices for upgrades. But at least we get the best there is; and isn't that what National Defense is all about.

It's often too easy to critisize them, for low quality (Russians), or high costs (Russians and French), but I think we forget the good sides too ease. Don't forget that both of them proved to be reliable to India, when the rest of the world wasn't, that their defence industry is boosting ours the most with JV, co-developments and that they offered us total indipendent operation without restrictions and source codes.
All this makes the higher costs worth it, especially in terms of the French/European side, because they have also the required quality of parts and a safe aftersale support, which is important for our forces as well.
We civillians tend to forget these things, especially during peace times, but our forces looks at the costs from their experience during war times and that's why they do know how important quality and reliability are and if they are worth it.


Yes that means we will be the owner.. and we will hold the IP for the money we are spending right?.. if we want custom we will only have to spend it.. like MKI where we spent lot of money customizing it.. so MK configurations which has India hands needs India go just like MKM...

I doubt we will get the IP rights, because it will remain a partnership and no it's not like MKI, because we could customize it with Indian, or foreign parts, that won't be possible (at least with foreign parts) with the EF. They have their upgrade road map, offered by the EF consortium and we can choose to fund any upgrade they offer.
 
it's upto EADS to spent the money they got from selling 126 fighter to india in which ever way they want , if they like to spent that money in funding any development of EF

Which is the the point that you don't understand, because it is not the EF consortium that has not the money to develop, they developed TVC, AESA demos, PIMAWS and other techs, pre-funded by them, but there is no customer that is ready to pay the these things, because the customers now have no interest in most of it.
 
I doubt we will get the IP rights, because it will remain a partnership and no it's not like MKI, because we could customize it with Indian, or foreign parts, that won't be possible (at least with foreign parts) with the EF. They have their upgrade road map, offered by the EF consortium and we can choose to fund any upgrade they offer.

No that will be the deal.. even if you take UAE F-16.. UAE funded it .. and they are the owner of the IP... where LM will pay royalty to UAE if some one opts for it...
 
No that will be the deal.. even if you take UAE F-16.. UAE funded it .. and they are the owner of the IP... where LM will pay royalty to UAE if some one opts for it...

UAE funded the new development and integration, neither the radar, nor the avionics of the B60 was planned to be part of the F16 initially. That's why older F16 B52 will not get the B60 upgrades, but the AESA radar and EWS from Raytheon instead.
The techs we would like to integrate additionally into EF, are from the EF roadmap itself and will not be developed just for us, any older, or future EF customer would get them as well.
 
UAE funded the new development and integration, neither the radar, nor the avionics of the B60 was planned to be part of the F16 initially. That's why older F16 B52 will not get the B60 upgrades, but the AESA radar and EWS from Raytheon instead.
The techs we would like to integrate additionally into EF, are from the EF roadmap itself and will not be developed just for us, any older, or future EF customer would get them as well.

There are 3 things..
1) Development only for India--> IP will be part of India just like UAE
2) Development part of Consortium --> India will get if it is part of the Proposal that EADS has submitte to MoD within the $11 billion --> No extra money
3) Future upgrades part of road map --> India if interested will pay the development.. and will get it with the same price what others will get...

Secondly are you in opinion that if you develop a product you wont charge it even for development??.... but basically every one does it.. for (e.g.) in T-50 program India will get less compared to other export price... because the vendor doesnt want to be in loss... there is probability that the export prices will be more compared to be part of the development
 
Le Bourget 2011

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Triple GBU-49 loadout and TDA-LR68 rocket pod
The rocket pod could be integrated on the 3rd wing point of the Rafale
 
Le Bourget 2011

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Triple Brimstone loadout

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Triple GBU-49 loadout, GBU-12, GBU-22 and GBU-24

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Sagem AASM-1000, AASM-500, AASM-250 and AASM-125

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MBDA Meteor, Mica EM and Mica IR
An AM-39 exocet can also be seen on the centerline pylon


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Triple GBU-49, TDA-LR68 rocket pod, damocles pod, GBU-24
 
Le Bourget 2011

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GBU-49, close-up on the head GPS antenna

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Left : Rafale M28 in A2A and antiship config
Right : Rafale C101 in CAS/interdiction config


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DGA display
Rafale throttle stick


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DGA display
Rafale HUD and HLD
bi-Color HUD digital demonstrator
Note the collimated HLD


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Rafale HUD
bi-Color HUD digital demonstrator
Note the real time 3D ground display
 
Le Bourget 2011

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Thales
Rafale fused tactical display


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Thales
Rafale simplified A2A fused tactical display


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Thales
Topsight/Tophowl-F HMD on a Gallet LA100 Helmet


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Thales
Topsight/Tophowl-F HMD on a Gallet LA100 Helmet


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Ulmer UA21S oxygen masks
 
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Ulmer UA21S oxygen mask

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Thales
RBE-2 AESA module side view
Note that there are 8 modules in each pack


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Thales
Rafale CIT TSB 2510 IFF interrogator-transponder


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MBDA
DDM-NG, New generation Missile Approch Warning system for Rafale F3O-T4


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MBDA
DDM-NG, New generation Missile Approch Warning system for Rafale F3O-T4
picture from the Mirage 2000 test bench
 
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Rafale model with a 3 scalp cruise missile and 6 Mica config
Note : It is said that this loadout is a requirement for the UAE


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Rafale models in A2A, antiship and pinpoint strike config

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Rafale model with the classic 6 AASM, 3x2000L tanks and damocles pod loadout

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Safran / Sagem
AASM/Hammer head mechanical interface close-up


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Safran / Sagem
AASM/Hammer head types (GPS-Laser, GPS-IIR and GPS)
 
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Raffaut tripple pylon attachement close-up

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Safran / Snecma M88-2 engine

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M88-2 engine - nozzle attachement close-up

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Le Bourget Air & Space museum
Rafale A demonstrator
Mirage 4000 prototype in the background


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There are 3 things..
1) Development only for India--> IP will be part of India just like UAE
2) Development part of Consortium --> India will get if it is part of the Proposal that EADS has submitte to MoD within the $11 billion --> No extra money
3) Future upgrades part of road map --> India if interested will pay the development.. and will get it with the same price what others will get...

Secondly are you in opinion that if you develop a product you wont charge it even for development??.... but basically every one does it.. for (e.g.) in T-50 program India will get less compared to other export price... because the vendor doesnt want to be in loss... there is probability that the export prices will be more compared to be part of the development


Number 3, as I mentioned before, the B60 upgrade for UAE was totally different, at a stage they even thought about redesigning the airframe, let alone the radar and avionics. That's a way bigger upgrade than choosing to fund an upgrade that is on the roadmap anyway.
Take the UAE requirements for Rafale as an example, where they want more power and radar modes for the RBE 2 AESA. These kinds of upgrades are planned for a later stage anyway, but the UAE is ready to fund them earlier. Same for METEOR missile, which the French will integrate to have it by 2018, because according their timeframes, MICA EM will be replaced by then only. For export customers on the other hand it could be available from 2016 onwards, but it seems that the UAE wants it even earlier (which might not be possible, because of the development of the missile itself) and they might fund some early integrations, but all this will make the UAE Rafales just more capable, or earlier upgraded then the French. The UAE won't get IP rights of RBE 2 AESA, nor ot METEOR, only because they funded the early integration, nor will they be a partner of the Rafale fighter project!
That's the big difference to the EF offer in MMRCA, because they don't just offer us to fund some integration, but to be a partner, which requires taking a share of the development costs. The partners paid that in the early development stages of the fighter, if we want to join now, we have to fund a big part of the T3B alone and some parts together with them, to get a comparable partner status.

You mean for exports right? Of course, parts of the development costs are diverted to the system cost that any export customer pays, that's how the manufacturers gets some of the fundings back. But even IF (from Brazil it was reported, that the French reduced the price, to a level that French forces normally pays) we would pay this for the Rafale, the total cost would be way less than what we would have to pay for a comparable EF, because France already funded most of the development, or weapon integrations. As I showed on the EF roadmap itself, there are only 1, or 2 features that are not already available with the Rafale, or funded to be available since 2013.

France pays around $90 millions each Rafale at the moment, the EF partners for their T3A without AESA, or all those other future enhancements around $125 millions. Both prices are flyaway costs and don't include development costs!
To get the EF at the same capability level that the Rafale F3+ offers, we would have to fund:

- AESA radar (partially)
- Storm Shadow (partially, Saudis wants it too)
- CFTs necessary for Storm Shadow, or 2000lb bombs (partially, UK has interest as well)
- Brimstone ATGM (so far, no other customer has interest, but UK might joint)
- SEAD weapon (partially, no AR missile will be developed, but JDAM might be integrated and with further ESM upgrades, EF could do SEAD in a similar way like Rafale with SPECTRA and AASM)
- HOSBO extended range bomb (fully, because no other customer has interest yet)
- RBS 15 anti ship missile (fully, because no other customer has interest yet)
- IR MAWS (fully, because no other customer has interest yet)
- Recce, or advanced targeting pods (fully, because no other customer has interest yet)

And these are only the improvments from the roadmap, not included are TVC, further upgrades to the engine, or avionics, comparable to those that the Rafale F3+ will have as well, the costs for more radar modes, because Captor E will have only A2A modes at the begining.

We will get partner status in the EF program and will be able to negotiate for upgrades beyond the MLU (EF 2020), but the only EF upgrade that would be made for our requirements, is the Sea Typhoon. Neither the partner, no another potential export customer is in sight and that why they offere us most of the ToT, or even IP rights from that versions, which on the other side means again huge development costs from us in addition to the above mentioned unit and upgrade costs!

The EF is neither a capable, nor cost-effective fighter and can only be justified by industrial and political advantages. But with LCA, N-LCA, FGFA, possibly even AMCA, there is simply no reason why we should pay such high costs for upgrading another fighter.
 
I think there is no need for a big reply...

If you choose 3 --> As i am part of the product life cycle.. as i understand.. but there is a gap in which you have explained..$90 million is the fly away cost which according to you mean the parts cost and the assemble cost around $90 million?.. if you think so .. you are wrong... a fly away cost will include development cost also.. basically fly away cost will be kept on the demand on projection.. If Dassault keeps the fly away cost $90 million ... if they think they will have a demand for some 500 piece but with a confirmed order on there kitty like the french order(180 piece).. which means out of the 180 piece which they are delievering to the french government they would recover with a base cut off cost may be 30% -50% in there development life cycle.. as i heared if they spent 45 billion dollar in developing the

To keep it simple lets take F-35.. while the base development is fixed the cost of F-35 increases with time and delay.. do you know why? it is because of the development, testing and resource cost... that is how the entire product works out.. no where the companies will put themselves in loss...

secondly France already funded the program is not necessary that they will not include the development cost in the fly away cost.. If France split the cost for 500 piece and if the sale has not happened for 500 piece.. defintely the MLU is going to cost more... Just like it happened with Mirage... because the cost they have incurred has to be recovered... Mirage upgrade is not costing more because it closed... because the development involved is part of Rafale.. and thats why they are very huge as the demand is not up to the level they have expected.. They knew IAF has to pay the cost they demand because the Airframe and engine has got another 5-10 years life left in it.. and they knew IAF will not waste the life ... either way Mirage 2000 seems to be loss for IAF because if upgrade doesnt go through .... it will not be worth for the life.. if it goes through it will a highly expensive.. this is the result of bad Management
 
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