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the bad part of thr rafalle is that the weapons are too costly , you can have them for once to threathen the enemy but can't fight a long war coz they are too costly ..

infect libyan war has shown that how French finances in total disarray due to libyan confilt race to financial disaster because they had relied on a "rapid collapse" of Gaddafi. It turn out to be a huge mistake ...
if fighting a war against libya which hardly has a air power can trun the a country finances of france up-side down , how india going to do in any agreesion against pakistan or china with these costly items...
AGGRESSION AGAINST LIBYA: OBAMA INCREASINGLY ISOLATED! | Facebook

my point is that to threaten the enemy , you can have these costly items but once you are in a war , you need cheap weaponery which you can keep firing...
 
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What a good point......I still think we should go for Rafale because most of the weapons for EF are also provided by same european firms like MBDA. Good thing with partnering with France is that we can build a set of A2A, A2G, anti-ship etc. weapons which could be used on Rafale and produce them cheaply here in India because lets be fair IAF is world's 4th largest airforce and they use alot ammunition which most of the time also gets wasted, so it would be better if DRDO also pays attention towards this apart from Astra because we have a set of fighter planes being build indigenously which will need these weapons purchasing them from foreign vendors would be too expensive....
 
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we should get deal for joint development of rafale upgrade with france....
otherwise rafale upgradation will end up like mirage2000.
 
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India’s Fighter Fetish | Flashpoints
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India’s Fighter Fetish
Strategic considerations played no part
whatsoever in India’s down-selection of the EADS
Eurofighter and the Dassault Rafale for its lucrative
medium multirole combat fighter aircraft
(MMRCA) competition.So argues Ashley J. Tellis
of the Carnegie Endowment for International
Peace in a fascinating analysis that runs counter
to many other assessments of the Indian
decision, which beggared American belief for its
rejection of the two US entrants in spite of the
increasingly close ties between Washington and
New Delhi.
I argued in an earlier Diplomat post that the
Indians had down-selected two aircraft from an
initial field of six back in April by feeding both their
technical evaluation of the contenders and the
country’s political priorities into their decision
matrix. That’s wrong, Tellis says: the technical
evaluation alone informed India’s decision to
green-light the two European aircraft at the
expense of Boeing, Lockheed Martin and the other
hopefuls.
Tellis may well be right, and his account of India’s
technical evaluation process is both detailed and
convincing. India is a country with a‘fetish about
process,’ he observes, and this obsession –
perhaps regrettably – allowed the air force to
make a purely technical judgement that wasn’t
influenced in any way by budgetary sense,
international politics past or present, or even by
the overall range of missions that the aircraft
could handle. They picked the two speediest,
most manoeuvrable planes, and that was all there
was to it.
Perhaps India’s decision-makers really have
become blinkered to all non-technical
considerations when it comes to military
procurement. But there would be two surprising
implications to this, if it were true.
The first is that the Indian defence establishment –
which has a shabby procurement record, strewn
with cases of graft and with car-crash
programmes where the fetish about process was
nowhere to be found– would have to have
cleaned up its act to an extraordinary degree in
order to have run the MMRCA competition along
purely technical lines.
Such a conversion isn’t entirely implausible. A.K.
Antony, the Indian defence minister, is well
known for his anti-corruption zeal, and the
corruption scandals that continue to plague the
government may have convinced those
concerned that the big-ticket MMRCA deal, with all
the scrutiny it would attract, needed to be whiter
than white. The thing is, this wasn’t Antony’s call.
In late April, the Indian media reported that
Antonydelivered a speech to senior army and air
force officers – the same men who made their
technical selection of the Eurofighter and Rafale –
in which he appealed to them not to succumb to
corrupt practices. Unless Antony was preaching
to the converted, he knows what many suspect:
that the reform of Indian procurement is far from
complete, and that the technical evaluation
conducted by some officers tends to improve
given the right financial encouragement.
The second is that it would show how little the
West understands its new, and most important,
Asian ally. US President Barack Obama, French
President Nicolas Sarkozy and British Prime
Minister David Cameron all made personal sales
calls to New Delhi in the run-up to the MMRCA
decision to lobby for their countries’ entrants (and
for other contracts besides) – trips that were
completely pointless if India is in fact impervious
to this kind of pressure. The US Ambassador to
India, Timothy J. Roemer, who quit when the
rejection of the two US aircraft was announced,
must have had dreadful intelligence on the
country he was working in, if he thought the
value of US-Indian strategic ties would count in
what was a strictly technical contest. But this, too,
is not totally implausible. Potential buyers often
say one thing and mean another, while salesmen
might hear only what they want to hear.
Yet if Tellis’s reading of the MMRCA contest is
correct, then this programme is a rarity – a
museum piece – in its exclusion of non-technical
factors. Personal contacts, lobbying and special
favours are the lifeblood of big business and
international politics, and this is doubly so in the
world of defence, whose wheels are habitually
greased either by financial or strategic interests. If
Antony truly has freed India’s procurement
processes from these iniquities, then he has done
an even better job of cleaning up his country’s
defence sector than people give him credit for.
 
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http://www.militaryaerospace.com/index/display/avi-wire-news-display/1438706592.html
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A very intresting article

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In view of the above, is there a reason for the US to still feel unhappy towards 'ungrateful' India? More importantly, would it cause a setback to Indo US relations, as believed in some political/ diplomatic quarters? Perhaps, the best person to answer the question was the US Ambassador Roemer himself when he stated that the US-India relationship continues on a "positive historic trajectory" and that, "the horizons of our relationship truly have no limits". That sums it up. The IAF's choice is based on technical evaluation. It is quite straightforward and there is nothing political about it. It is just a process; the other programmes (US and Russian)were falling short in the technical standards needed by the IAF. It is good that there is progress in the MMRCA competition. The commercial negotiations will start now. -former Air Chief Marshal (Retd) S. Krishnaswamy.
The IAF has diligently completed the evaluation and selection process keeping in mind the capabilities required in the medium multi-role combat aircraft. Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale were found b compliant with the IAF requirements. Many factors are taken into consideration during the technical evaluation and flying tests including life cycle maintenance, other facilities, etc. It was a pure selection process, political and commercial negotiations will start now. -Former Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal(Retd) F.H. Major I still consider the US made Boeing F/A-18 and Lockheed Martin F-16IN the best. And if I were asked to select between Eurofighter and Dassault Rafale, I would go for Rafale. -A Former Chief of the Air Staff on the condition of anonymity
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....................for full please visit above link
 
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EF certainly face Spare & Parts issues.. As EADS has diffrent arrangements with Different AFs.. Moreover, the EF partner countries are having diffrenences over the Manufacturing Plant locations.. It is quite understandable why RAF is facing these problems, that too during mission emergencies.. The EFs overall credibility as a supplier is questionable..
On the other hand, Rafale has proved its combat-worthiness over Libiya, specially its Omni Role capability.. The French have really worked hard to make the Fighter a real beast.. Get Set Go Rafale..:tup:
 
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spain got trainer contract... most of the NSG countries are getting something... interesting
i guess india is going for EF
 
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spain got trainer contract... most of the NSG countries are getting something... interesting
i guess india is going for EF

The UK have been given the Hawk order,the Germans can be kept happy with U-boat upgrades and extra U-214s to eventually replace all the U-209s.

Its Rafale all the way.
 
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What is this fetish of "Keeping everyone happy"? I know it is a part of indian psyche but for God's sake we are talking about weapons not vegetables!!! The armed forces should be allowed to go with whatever they deem fit and best. I am quite sure indian armed forces, MOD and the govt. are not driven by any such notion of keeping everyone happy... with the possible exception of US where I would assert its more a question of necessity!
 
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]What is this fetish of "Keeping everyone happy"? [/B]I know it is a part of indian psyche but for God's sake we are talking about weapons not vegetables!!! The armed forces should be allowed to go with whatever they deem fit and best. I am quite sure indian armed forces, MOD and the govt. are not driven by any such notion of keeping everyone happy... with the possible exception of US where I would assert its more a question of necessity!

It's about turning economic and military power into global political power- creating jobs and a positive image in these countries (UK,US,Russia,France etc) that means that India is slowly but surely increasing their presence on the global stage. Literally "buying friends". India buying the BAE Hawk and C-17 in countries with rising unemployment and struggling growth figures are very welcomed and save thousands of their citizens' jobs. Let me assure this news of India saving thousands of jobs all over the world is create a very positive impression of it whereas the news coming out of its neighbour is doing the opposite.
 
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the bad part of thr rafalle is that the weapons are too costly , you can have them for once to threathen the enemy but can't fight a long war coz they are too costly ..

infect libyan war has shown that how French finances in total disarray due to libyan confilt race to financial disaster because they had relied on a "rapid collapse" of Gaddafi. It turn out to be a huge mistake ...
if fighting a war against libya which hardly has a air power can trun the a country finances of france up-side down , how india going to do in any agreesion against pakistan or china with these costly items...
AGGRESSION AGAINST LIBYA: OBAMA INCREASINGLY ISOLATED! | Facebook

my point is that to threaten the enemy , you can have these costly items but once you are in a war , you need cheap weaponery which you can keep firing...

I think Rafale has a open system architecture.. Indegenous weapons like ASTRA and other weapons like Russian R series missiles and ground attack ammunitions can be easily integated into it.. So the cost can be taken care of in the long run..
 
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spain got trainer contract... most of the NSG countries are getting something... interesting
i guess india is going for EF

If you mean the Pilatus PC 7 trainer, then it's Switzerland, not Spain.


What is this fetish of "Keeping everyone happy"? I know it is a part of indian psyche but for God's sake we are talking about weapons not vegetables!!! The armed forces should be allowed to go with whatever they deem fit and best. I am quite sure indian armed forces, MOD and the govt. are not driven by any such notion of keeping everyone happy... with the possible exception of US where I would assert its more a question of necessity!

I agree that we shouldn't keep everyone happy and that we should get those arms that serves the purpose of securing our country at best, but it should be clear that defence deals have a strategic part as well, be it political, or in case of MMRCA an industrial. If we let the forces decide alone, we only get one side, but we have to look at who gives the ToT, or the offset deals that benefits our industry at most as well.
Giving the US for example some deals to get them closer to us, by the fact that they were mainly against us for decades isn't a bad idea from an strategic point of, but could be combined with certain defence deals like C130J, P8I, Apache, or M777 howitzers (partly UK too), because these were also very capable arms, that increases the capability of our forces. MMRCA on the other side will play not only a cruicial role in the defence of our country, but also to improve our indigenous capabilities by getting more foreign input and this aim was already achiedved by all the JV that were formed by companies like, Boeing, EADS, Thales, Safran group, LM, Saab...
The wining vendor / country will invest even more in India by offsets, ToT, more JV, or co-development, -production and that's why the US fighters that offered not only less capable fighters, but also less useful ToT were not good choices for us. To get on of them might have given us more political advantages and our industry might produce more parts for the americans, but they still don't provide critical ToT that would help us, not allow important JVs, or co-developments like we saw at LCA development.
So choosing an European fighter has especially an strategic importance for our industry that and the comercial/offset offers will play an important role now!

The French package with a clearly more capable and suitable fighter for our forces is great, but if the EF partners would offer an industrial package that would be worth it, to pay more and take the risks of delays, or less capability for some years, the EF will remain with good chances as well.
 
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i think india is aiming for 2 mangoes in 1 stone...
i dont mind it .. both fighters are good enough
 
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IMO Going for EF may not prove to be a good move by IAF and MoD.. Spare-parts issues may arise (RAF is facing problems) as we are facing it with Soviet Machines.. It is not suitable to knock the door of 4 countries to get the spare parts..
 
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