Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sancho]

How EF going to help India when they have MKI ?

Not much, that's because it's not a good choice for Indian forces.

 

[Dash]

Not much, that's because it's not a good choice for Indian forces.

I just dont like it for one thing, such a hig hprice tag for what???, it was never worth.

 

[sancho]

I just dont like it for one thing, such a hig hprice tag for what???, it was never worth.

I do like it personally, but I don't think it's a good choice for our forces and I agree, the costs are too high, just like the risks of further cost escalations and delays.

 

[sancho]

For those who thinks Rafale has limited upgrade potential, or future.

Plans For Further Rafale Upgrades Emerge

With a new round of Rafale upgrades nearing completion, the French military and defense industry are starting to look at the long-term future of the twin-engine fighter.

Although much of the focus is on a potential mid-life upgrade (MLU) that is still several years away, development activities to prepare the technology would have to start significantly sooner. Potential radar cross-section (RCS) improvements are under consideration, as are equipping the fighter with additional radar arrays for greater spherical coverage and adding thrust vector control to the two M88 turbojets. The MLU configuration is not expected to emerge until around 2025...

Plans For Further Rafale Upgrades Emerge | AVIATION WEEK

 

[KEETARP]

Good eyes in this case! I only saw the empty stations at the back,

Naah ....... . It was not my eyesight but just an unbiased view of looking things . Tell me did you really missed it or you knew but still went on praising rafale .

but it is still carrying only a single BVR missile, compared to the fully loaded testflights in Farnborough, or during the A2G weapon trials.

The pic you are talking about - about full load , probably this

Reason could be - Apart from trials,airshows if you talk in real combat scene . It will be absolutely rare situation when jets would be so heavily loaded .Think about TWR in this situation - not only rafale but eurofighter also will be in poor TWR situation . Poor than airbus330 even .

It is behind the Mirage, not because of the fuel tanks, but because it can't carry 2 fuel tanks, an LDP and a 2000lb LGB at the same time. EFs centerline station is blocked by the LDP, which leaves no free station for the weapon.

That is because only three et stations rt now , but why you need 2nd tank . ????
Eurofighter has bigger range , bigger internal fuel capacity . And once CFT are operational like we saw in AERO-india pic . Even that capability would be added .

Just look at the above pic , and manipulate it

1) add Litening3 to centerline , replace 2other drop tanks with Storm shadow + CFTs will come in future

2) add Litening3 to centerline , replace 2 other drop tanks symmetrically with GBU-10 2000 lbs bomb .

something like this

Refuel this eurofighter carrying cfts , over NE border with il78 . You have bomb truck entering enemy's air-space.

or my fav config -

3) Replace the centreline fueltank with litening III and 2 of the bombs with Brimstone triple racks


To add -And few years back , we saw some unique configs also . Pics not any more on official website after website up gradation .

and most interesting one

If last of the pic comes true in 2-3 years . one 2000l space is free - Right

That means for a mission where you need only a single Mirage 2000H (even today without the upgrade), you need 2 x EFs, one with the weapon, one with LDP.
In strike role with cruise missiles it's behind Mirage as well, because the Mirage can carry Scalp on the centerline station with 2 fuel tanks, or a single fuel tank and 2 x missiles. EF does not have enough space at the centerline station, because of the gear bays, that's why it can carry only 2 x missiles and a single fuel tank, which obviously reduces the range by far.

Talking about - 2000 lbs bomb ,

With the accuracy as good as 1-3 m CEP , a 1000lbs paveway4, EGBU-16 can cause damage equivalent to what a generation old 2000lbs gbu10 paveway did .
This is exactly why F35 wont be needing a 2000lbs bomb

Btw, the lower pic shows the 1500l fuel tanks on an DA7 test aircraft of Alenia, not an operational fighter, so far only 1000l tanks are available and even bigger fuel tanks, won't help the EF in these cases, only CFTs would, because free hardpoints for additional weapons, or tanks.

Well not a problem , if tested once - then clearing them for operation is not a big deal .
Any increment from 1000l is always welcomed

Which is not possible, because the LDP is integrated only at the centerline station and the weight balance would on each side of the wing would be a problem too, with an 200Kg LDP on the one side and an 1000Kg fuel tank on the other side. More sense would be to integrate it on the inner wingstation, but so far that seems not to be possible, otherwise they wouldn't limit themselfs like this right?

Again, only CFTs will help to make the EF more capable in this field compared to the Mirage 2000), not to mention that the Rafale is clearly superior anyway (5 wet stations, 2000l fuel tanks, CFTs developed and tested, 2000lb PGM and Scalp on up to 5 stations).

For bold part - Asymmetric loading you meant

Has been tested before

a 2000lbs pgm only on one side .

And look at the first pic again -
as i said before also
Replace the centreline fueltank with litening III and 2 of the bombs with Brimstone triple racks , Plus 4 additional AMRAAM/Meteor and 2 ASRAAM

Way cheaper and looks more impressive than Rafale with 2/2 MICA IR/EM + triple rack of AASM - isn't it .

 

[sancho]

Naah ....... . It was not my eyesight but just an unbiased view of looking things . Tell me did you really missed it or you knew but still went on praising rafale .

Oh please, why should I? The edge the Rafale has in terms of maturity, tech level, load, or multi role capability is more than obvious, you just need to look at the Libiyan conflict to understand that. I just pointed that there is something strange with the loads EF is carrying in operational strike roles.
Btw, TWR is for sure not a reason for that, because EF has an excellent TWR even with full load and that's why it impressed so much with that load in Farnborough, but as I said back then, it's not a realistic loadout. Today we even see that it don't carry BVR missiles and mainly just SR missiles and that has to have a reason, because with such a load it offers only the self defence capability of the older Jags and needs dedicated escorts for sure! Similary, the French Mirage 2000D also carries only 2 x SR missiles with strike loads, that's why they get escorted by Mirage 2000-5s with A2A config, while the Rafale carries at least 2 x SR and 2 x MR missiles in any role.

1) add Litening3 to centerline , replace 2other drop tanks with Storm shadow + CFTs will come in future

Exactly and that's why I said, till EF get CFTs, it's strike capability is less then Mirage 2000s. So now you understand it and have to agree with me.

To add -And few years back , we saw some unique configs also . Pics not any more on official website after website up gradation .

Now guess why? Because they are not possible in reality!
In all those pics the weapon is too long and would block the gear bay. Secondly, using such large weapons like 2000lb bombs, or Storm Shadow cruise missile would make the weight balance difficult, because too much weight would be to the front.
Btw, did you see the pic where it carries an LDP on one of the missile stations? Also not possible and the reason why they had to compromise with the LDP on the centerline station.

As you can see, this design flaw, or bad planingi of the EF is the most limiting factor for it to carry heavy strike loads, or fuel tanks, while the Rafale with dedicated pod stations and 5 heavy / wet stations is designed much better.

Talking about - 2000 lbs bomb ,

With the accuracy as good as 1-3 m CEP , a 1000lbs paveway4, EGBU-16 can cause damage equivalent to what a generation old 2000lbs gbu10 paveway did .
This is exactly why F35 wont be needing a 2000lbs bomb

The F35 is specially designed to carry 2 x 2000lb JDAMs internally!

Way cheaper and looks more impressive than Rafale with 2/2 MICA IR/EM + triple rack of AASM - isn't it .

Not really, because Rafale can still carry more fuel = has more range and like recent news reports, seems to get Brimstone even before EF. It simply has a complete edge over EF in any strike role and even the CFTs could be added earlier, because they are already developed and tested (UAE seems to want it for their 3 x cruise missile config).
EF was designed as an air superioirty and with multi role capability only as a secondary factor, that's where they went wrong and why the French was smart to leave the project.

 

[WARRANT]

Plans For Further Rafale Upgrades Emerge
Jun 7, 2011

With a new round of Rafale upgrades nearing completion, the French military and defense industry are starting to look at the long-term future of the twin-engine fighter.

Although much of the focus is on a potential mid-life upgrade (MLU) that is still several years away, development activities to prepare the technology would have to start significantly sooner. Potential radar cross-section (RCS) improvements are under consideration, as are equipping the fighter with additional radar arrays for greater spherical coverage and adding thrust vector control to the two M88 turbojets. The MLU configuration is not expected to emerge until around 2025.

Long-range planning is possible because many of the core capabilities deemed necessary for the domestic user and potential export customers are now nearing the end of development. With the F3-04T standard, which is due for delivery in 2013, the Dassault Aviation Rafale will receive its active, electronically scanned array RBE2 radar, developed by Thales; an improved missile-warning system (the DDM-NG); and upgraded forward-sight optronics. Qualification of those elements is due for completion in mid-2012 with delivery anticipated in 2013, says Stephane Reb, program manager for French defense procurement agency DGA.

Another near-term activity is the potential launch of a major upgrade of Rafale’s Damocles laser targeting pod, which would introduce video capability to the system. The effort is slated to be put on contract this year.

Damocles uses an infrared sensor, but the French military has also identified a need for a TV channel, which could prove particularly useful in urban operations. That addition would provide a crisper picture to more clearly identify targets. Both IR and TV feeds can be downlinked to ground troops via the Rover system.

As a result of the changes, the pod will require a major redesign, Reb says. Because the outer shell of the pod will change slightly, some regression flight testing will be needed.

If current plans hold, technology prototypes could be flying next year; the system could be fielded around 2016, depending on funding.

The existing processing architecture should allow Rafale to receive needed improvements in the near term without any significant hardware or software changes until the MLU emerges, Reb says. He notes that ideas such as RCS improvement and thrust vector control are just that, ideas. The exact road map “has still to be built.”

But that’s not to say that elements such as the radar cross section are not already being considered as design changes are implemented. To support a 9-ton thrust version of the M88 turbojet—sought by potential export customer United Arab Emirates—Rafale’s engine intakes would have to be increased by about 1.5 cm. To help mitigate any negative impact on the fighter’s RCS, some material changes may be made as part of the modification if it goes into production.

Many of the modifications would be on the systems side, though. For instance, the side arrays would be used to increase radar coverage. A Thales official notes that, long term, those additions make more sense than fitting the RBE2 active, electronically scanned ar-ay (AESA) radar with a repositioner;· the latter is being considered for the Saab Gripen NG and Eurofighter Typhoon to increase the field of view of their future AESAs.


Furthermore, Rafale’s Specter electronic-warfare suite also is set for more iterations. One effort would be to add a single-ship precision emitter geolocation capability to the fighter. And, government and industry officials are saying that the eventual retirement of the Mirage 2000s Astac electronic intelligence pod means Rafale will take on that role.

Another improvement being considered for the electronic warfare system involves enhanced jamming techniques. However, the DDM‑NG missile-warning upgrade now being developed for Rafale would support use of a directed infrared countermeasures subsystem.

Research and development studies to equip the fighter with satellite communications and software-defined radios are also being considered.

A more far out MLU idea involves integrating the ability to control unmanned aircraft into Rafale.

Meanwhile, the French navy next month expects to inaugurate its second operational unit, 11F, to be collocated with 12F at Landisvisiau near Brest, France.

The move comes as the inventory of single-seat Dassault Aviation Rafale Ms is starting to grow.

Photo: Dassault

Plans For Further Rafale Upgrades Emerge | AVIATION WEEK

 

[nightcrawler]

DefenceDog: Indian Cinema About Combat Aircraft-MMRCA

 

[luckyyy]

Saab keeps watch on Indian fighter contest
By Craig Hoyle

Saab has not given up hope of winning the Indian air force's medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contest, despite having failed to make the service's shortlist when it narrowed the field to two European models early last month.

"We were not selected - at least not yet," said Saab chief executive Håkan Buskhe. Attributing New Delhi's "rather surprising decision" to concerns over the developmental status of his company's Gripen NG, he said "what we can do is give them our explanation if we feel they have misjudged something".

Speaking in London in late May, Buskhe said: "We have a list of things that they have some questions about, and we have been looking at those."

India narrowed its MMRCA contest to the Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon, effectively eliminating the Gripen NG, Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin F-16 and RSK MiG-35 from the $10 billion-plus, 126-aircraft deal.

But with extended bids from the remaining contenders valid only until late December, Saab has decided to maintain a presence in support of the campaign in India. "We will wait and see," said Buskhe.

The Saab official also was part of a business delegation that accompanied Swedish prime minister Fredrik Reinfeldt to Brazil last month. "We have a fair chance to make it," Buskhe said, referring to Saab's campaign to offer the Gripen NG to meet the nation's F-X2 fighter requirement.

"We believe we have an extremely strong offer, with the transfer of technology and co-operation with Brazilian industry." The company again faces competition from the Rafale and Super Hornet, with a decision now expected during 2012.

Saab keeps watch on Indian fighter contest

 

[sancho]

Combat aircraft: Boeing "accepts" the decision of New Delhi

Barring procedural or unforeseen, Boeing does not intend to challenge the removal of his F-18 Super Hornets from the Indian tender for the acquisition of 126 fighter planes.

Barring unforeseen or procedural, Boeing does not intend to challenge the removal of his F-18 Super Hornets from the Indian tender for the acquisition of 126 fighter planes.

"Despite our disappointment, we accept the decision. We've stopped promoting the F-18 in India which remains a client in the long term, " said Dennis Muilenburg Tuesday, the chairman of the defense branch of the American group in a meeting with reporters in St. Louis (Missouri).

The Defense Ministry of India has recently selected the Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter from EADS-BAE-trio Alenia in the final of the bid estimated at more than $ 10 billion).

Boeing should console themselves with the forthcoming signing of a contract worth more than $ 4 billion for the sale of 10 aircraft C-17 (six options), according to the Wall Street Journal.

Avions de combat : Boeing «accepte» la décision de New Delhi, Actualités

 

[shaktiman2010]

HAL Tejas with f-16 and Typhoon along side it.

14 February 2009

 

[fatman17]

Boeing official says engine may have caused Super Hornet MMRCA elimination

Gareth Jennings Aviation Desk Editor - St Louis, Missouri


The performance of the General Electric F414 engine contributed to the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet being cut from India's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition, a senior company official has said.

Speaking on 7 June at the company's F/A-18 production line in St Louis, Missouri, Dennis Muilenburg president and chief executive of Boeing Defense, Space and Security, said that, despite having not yet received an official debrief from the Indian Air Force (IAF), his understanding was that the engine failed to meet the competition's requirements during the IAF's technical evaluation.

The evaluation aircraft, supplied by Boeing, was powered by the standard F414 engine as currently fitted to the US Navy and Royal Australian Air Force fleets. However, the Super Hornet being offered into the MMRCA competition would have been fitted with the more powerful Enhanced Performance Engine (EPE) variant of the F414, giving a 15 to 20 per cent increase in thrust.

"It is not clear to me what credit was given [during the evaluation, that the Indian Super Hornet] would be fitted with the EPE engine", Muilenburg said.

According to Muilenburg, both Boeing and Lockheed Martin are still waiting to hear from the US government as to the specific reasons why the F/A-18E/F and F-16IN were eliminated from the MMRCA competition. As the proposed buy would have been a government-to-government Foreign Military Sales agreement, the Indian government will not brief the US-based companies directly. The UAC MiG-35 and Saab JAS 39 Gripen NG were also eliminated from the competition, with only the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale remaining as contenders.

Muilenburg did not say if or when a debrief with the US government might take place but did say that he does not expect the Indian engine issue to adversely affect the F/A-18E/F's chances in ongoing and future fighter replacement programmes.

"We have not yet reached the end of [the] growth potential in the Super Hornet engine [with the EPE], and that to me is a good news story," he said. The company is pursuing a number of opportunities with the Super Hornet, including programmes in Brazil, Japan, Malaysia, and the Middle East.

 

[kali]

What is difference between swing role & omni role aircraft?

 

[sancho]

What is difference between swing role & omni role aircraft?

Basically these names describes the same, that the aircraft is able to do different roles, interception, strikes, recon...if necessary even in the same mission. A dedicated ground attack fighter like our Mig 27, or Jags can not be used in A2A and the Mig 29s so far can not be used in A2G, while the MKI, or Mirage 2000s are multi-, swing-, omni role fighters.
The only real difference is the performance of the fighters in the different roles, because they are often not developed to do all the roles equally good! Fighters like the EF, or Mig 35 are designed / planed mainly for A2A, with A2G roles only as a secondary role. That's why the focus on aerodynamic perfrmance, then on carrying big weapon, or fuel loads, while the F18SH is the exact opposite with a prime focus on carrier operations and strikes and A2A only as a secondary role. The F16IN, Gripen NG and the Rafale on the other hand are more balanced fighters and combine good aerodynamic performance with good strike capabilities as well.

 

[KEETARP]

Oh please, why should I? The edge the Rafale has in terms of maturity, tech level, load, or multi role capability is more than obvious, you just need to look at the Libiyan conflict to understand that.

Quite true - Libyan air-space and ground air-defence system are true test of capabilities . Perhaps better if we compare air power and ADS of china+pakistan wrt Libya .
A fully loaded bomb truck dogfighting its way between co-ordinated ADS/AEW/AWACS/F16/J10 , yes then perhaps .
All of us will agree if and if - Rafale will be able to carry 3*2000l tanks , 2*2000lbs pgm , 1*damocles pod and will still be supersonic enough to defeat f16 , j10 , flankers .
If you still think Rafale would be able to do so - then yes Rafale is truly unbeatable non-lo jet ever built .

Poor Libyan forces - where Rafale +F15+Eurofighter flew missions , with only vintage stuff to worry about .

I just pointed that there is something strange with the loads EF is carrying in operational strike roles.

Ohh , don't start your speculation . We have seen enough visual proofs .
And why would eurofighter carry BVRAAM over Libyan air-space , what is there to worry out . sukhoi's???, fulcrums , F16 ???

Just one pic and you start doubting whether Eurofighter would carry MRAAMS along with PGMS

You even claimed sometime back "no AAM" , until i showed you enlarged image .

Here is a typical mission load pic of mirage over libya

Source - – The High Cost of Precision Attack | Defense Update

So what do i infer from this pic - ?????

Btw, TWR is for sure not a reason for that, because EF has an excellent TWR even with full load and that's why it impressed so much with that load in Farnborough, but as I said back then, it's not a realistic loadout. Today we even see that it don't carry BVR missiles and mainly just SR missiles and that has to have a reason, because with such a load it offers only the self defence capability of the older Jags and needs dedicated escorts for sure! Similary, the French Mirage 2000D also carries only 2 x SR missiles with strike loads, that's why they get escorted by Mirage 2000-5s with A2A config, while the Rafale carries at least 2 x SR and 2 x MR missiles in any role.

First part of post explains itself ,
And there is High Def video of same 4*PGM + 4 BVRAAM + Litening pod + 2*IRIS-T + 2* supersonic carefree droptanks
Just one pic and you start doubting whether Eurofighter would carry MRAAMS along with PGMS

Exactly and that's why I said, till EF get CFTs, it's strike capability is less then Mirage 2000s. So now you understand it and have to agree with me.

Ok let me get this clear , Jets always fight in formation .
You won't be sending a single Mirage to win you war .

Here all 9 hardpoints visible on mirage (3 are wet ) -

You say -
We carry 2*droptanks ,1*damocles pod , 2* Magic , 4*PGM on mirage (all 9 used) . Now what is twr ??? .
Somewhat like in this config

And compare it to Typhoon - 4*PGM + 1*Litening pod + 2* drop tanks + 4* AIM120 + 2 ASRAAM . Much better TWR than mirage . Much bigger Range than mirage .

So what say now . Which one would be more capable of defending itself and still can take out ground targets .

Add options of replacing 2 pgms with triple racks = 6 brimstone or 2 anti radiation missile .

So at this moment ,until you want to finish a war with single jet (carrying 2 drop tanks + 1 2000lgb + 1 pod simult) then - yes Eurofighter lacks this capability . But at this moment only until CFT negate this .

But you got to give Typhoon some time as they have offered and promised in proposal .

Even Rafale didn't have any Laser designator pod on it 12 months back - in a way behind even mig27 of IAFP . 12 months back
And first flight of Rafale took 10 years before Eurofighter

Now guess why? Because they are not possible in reality!
In all those pics the weapon is too long and would block the gear bay. Secondly, using such large weapons like 2000lb bombs, or Storm Shadow cruise missile would make the weight balance difficult, because too much weight would be to the front.

True , i agree

Btw, did you see the pic where it carries an LDP on one of the missile stations? Also not possible and the reason why they had to compromise with the LDP on the centerline station.

Can you explain why - As i see , Litening is much smaller than Aim120 - so it wont be blocking bay doors.

As you can see, this design flaw, or bad planingi of the EF is the most limiting factor for it to carry heavy strike loads, or fuel tanks, while the Rafale with dedicated pod stations and 5 heavy / wet stations is designed much better.

Rafale in a individual loadout is ahead of eurofighter - yes

But in a formation of say 10 jets .
A eurofighter with 2 HOPE/HOSBO + 2 CFT + 1 centreline drop tank + 4*Anti radiation+ 4BVRAAM .
While other with 6 BVRAAMS +4 SRAAM .
And a third with 6 PGM + Litening pod .

More than enough for any mission .

The F35 is specially designed to carry 2 x 2000lb JDAMs internally!

You might disagree but ADlA don't

I think this forum missed this French Defence ministry news which cam out 24hrs back .

France zeroes in on lightweight weapon for Rafale

"France is close to selecting a new, reduced collateral effect weapon for its Dassault Rafale fighters, with the need for a lightweight air-to-surface store having been underlined by its recent combat experience over Libya.
Discussions involving the air force and France's DGA defence procurement agency have advanced over the recent weeks, with several options understood to be under consideration
Acquiring a precision-guided, lightweight weapon for the Rafale has interested the French military for some time, with a TDA 68mm rocket pod having been exhibited alongside a Rafale at 2009's Paris air show.
A new system would provide a strike capability between the aircraft's internal 30mm cannon, and 250kg (550lb) bombs equipped with Sagem's AASM "Hammer" precision guidance and range extension kit."

This was same discussion in World affairs board - 2000 lbs capability might be designed on F35 , but with highly accurate and reinforced new explosive warhead on SDB and 1000lbs bomb , it will have same effect which was planned with 2000lbs bomb in 90's when designs were freezed .

Not really, because Rafale can still carry more fuel = has more range and like recent news reports, seems to get Brimstone even before EF. It simply has a complete edge over EF in any strike role and even the CFTs could be added earlier, because they are already developed and tested (UAE seems to want it for their 3 x cruise missile config).
EF was designed as an air superioirty and with multi role capability only as a secondary factor, that's where they went wrong and why the French was smart to leave the project.

Cant deny that but - Keep in mind Fuel tanks on rafale are neither Supersonic nor carefree
Any reason why Rafale would have CFT earlier .